NBA Who's had the greater career: Kobe or Duncan?

[Il Mediano]

Are we supposed to praise Kobe for essentially forcing Shaq and Phil out?

Oh, great for the Mamba , he orchestrated a situation which allowed him to be as selfish as he wanted , and made Smush Parker feel like crap everyday. Sweet , take 40 shots a game , and drop 81 on a terrible Raptors team.

Duncan would never do that. I have no idea how you think it's some kind of grand achievement.

 

[Aladyyn]

again, you're really going to compare lamar odom to having guys like robinson, parker, ginobilli, and bowen?

try again

35 years old Robinson and 20 years old Parker? Yeah gimme Odom over both.

 

[Terry Yake]

Are we supposed to praise Kobe for essentially forcing Shaq and Phil out?

Oh, great for the Mamba , he orchestrated a situation which allowed him to be as selfish as he wanted , and made Smush Parker feel like crap everyday. Sweet , take 40 shots a game , and drop 81 on a terrible Raptors team.

Duncan would never do that. I have no idea how you think it's some kind of grand achievement.

kobe didn't force shaq out. they could keep only one and they obviously went with the much younger kobe

carrying those awful teams into the playoffs is a grand achievement. doesn't matter how he did it, the point is that he did. those teams should have been buried in the cellar

35 years old Robinson and 20 years old Parker? Yeah gimme Odom over both.

odom was very underwhelming his first few seasons in LA

not a difference maker at all on those 05-06 and 06-07 teams

 

[Il Mediano]

kobe didn't force shaq out. they could keep only one and they obviously went with the much younger kobe

LOL what kind of revisionist history have you conjured up?

Kobe 100% orchestrated that. He gave Buss an ultimatum , him or Shaq. He had been threatening to go to Chicago for weeks before they dealt Shaq to Miami.

carrying those awful teams into the playoffs is a grand achievement. doesn't matter how he did it, the point is that he did. those teams should have been buried in the cellar

Do you know how many superstars have carried trash rosters to the playoffs? Almost all of them have , or are capable of it. It's not that impressive , especially when you consider how those two years were just an ego-stroke more than anything.

He wanted to do it without Shaq and Phil , and we saw what happened.

 

[Il Mediano]

35 years old Robinson and 20 years old Parker? Yeah gimme Odom over both.

Yeah, but did Duncan take 40 shots a game , force Pop and Parker to leave, and get knocked out in the 1st round?

That's the mark of true greatness, you see.

 

[Maestro84]

duncan never had to carry a team by himself. he always had an excellent surrounding cast

kobe did it for 2 seasons while putting up absolutely insane numbers. people forget that 06 lakers team was one win away from beating the suns in round 1 before tim thomas happened

The biggest reason for that is because Duncan was a better team player and that allowed the Spurs system led by Pop/Timmy to develop players who turned out to be found treasure. Kobe simply wasn't the best teammate and as a result, that's why very few actually had good experiences playing with the Mamba. However, in San Antonio, Parker was a mid/late first rounder and Manu almost went undrafted so neither of them were even supposed to be good let alone end their careers as likely HOFers, all of which can be attributed to the Spurs development system. Same can be said with Kawhi Leonard who Duncan gladly gave the torch to during his final years. If Kawhi had been drafted to Kobe's Lakers in say 2014 with old Kobe who still shot A LOT and Byron Scott (one of the most incompetent HC's in recent memory), who knows how Klaw would've developed. Also, Shaq is a greater player than anyone Duncan ever played with, hell some argue Shaq is even better than Duncan himself, whereas Pau and Parker (the second best player Duncan ever played with) are pretty similar in terms of being second options.

 

[Voight]

I like Kobe, but the 1 he did get should've gone to CP3

He should have won in 2006 and 2007, both years. 2008 was a "sorry we f***ed up the last 2 times, here's one to help make up for it"

Not that he wasn't MVP caliber in 2008, but it was like Pacinos Oscar, they were making up for previous f-ups.

 

[Voight]

Are we supposed to praise Kobe for essentially forcing Shaq and Phil out?

Oh, great for the Mamba , he orchestrated a situation which allowed him to be as selfish as he wanted , and made Smush Parker feel like crap everyday. Sweet , take 40 shots a game , and drop 81 on a terrible Raptors team.

Duncan would never do that. I have no idea how you think it's some kind of grand achievement.

Shaq had no desire to share the Los Angeles spotlight with Kobe. He wasn't happy that his "little bro" was now just as good as him and would take some of the shine away. It got to a point where they couldn't co-exist and the Lakers clearly made the right choice.

 

[Il Mediano]

Shaq had no desire to share the Los Angeles spotlight with Kobe. He wasn't happy that his "little bro" was now just as good as him and would take some of the shine away. It got to a point where they couldn't co-exist and the Lakers clearly made the right choice.

Shaq would've stayed , man. He and Kobe hated each other by that point , but lets not get it twisted , Kobe forced all of it with his flirtation with other clubs, and the ultimatum he posed to management.

Shaq still had a year on his deal , and he was traded. He didn't ask to be moved.

They're both culpable in the demise of the dynasty, without question. Ultimately their egos couldn't co-exist anymore , and they should've won more than 3 together if they weren't so ridiculous.

 

[Terry Yake]

LOL what kind of revisionist history have you conjured up?

Kobe 100% orchestrated that. He gave Buss an ultimatum , him or Shaq. He had been threatening to go to Chicago for weeks before they dealt Shaq to Miami.




Do you know how many superstars have carried trash rosters to the playoffs? Almost all of them have , or are capable of it. It's not that impressive , especially when you consider how those two years were just an ego-stroke more than anything.

He wanted to do it without Shaq and Phil , and we saw what happened.

actually, you're the one whose created some false narrative in your head

he didn't "threaten" to go to chicago. he simply looked at the bulls as an option in case LA kept shaq. kobe didn't orchestrate anything. the lakers had to choose between shaq or kobe and they chose kobe. simple as that.

what other superstars have carried teams with that bad of a roster into the playoffs and averaged 35 ppg? don't let your hate for kobe get in the way of recognizing how tough of a task that was. especially in the west

no, he didn't want to do it without phil. he wanted to do it without shaq. and look, he won 2 titles without him

 

[Voight]

Shaq would've stayed , man. He and Kobe hated each other by that point , but lets not get it twisted , Kobe forced all of it with his flirtation with other clubs, and the ultimatum he posed to management.

Shaq still had a year on his deal , and he was traded. He didn't ask to be moved.

They're both culpable in the demise of the dynasty, without question. Ultimately their egos couldn't co-exist anymore , and they should've won more than 3 together if they weren't so ridiculous.

Shaq was clearly disinterested after the 2004 finals... he got complacent after the 3 peat and by that point just wanted to make $$$. His health was also in overall poor shape and he wasn't willing to budge on his contract demands. Plus Kobe didn't like the half ass effort Shaq would give at times and it drives an uber competitive person like Kobe nuts.

Shaq had only wanted to stay if they gave him a raise, which wasn't smart as he was in his early 30s, had a bunch of wear and tear on his body and knew they could just as easily build around KB. He had little top no interest in being co-star with Kobe and while he didn't ask to be traded, he pretty much forced Buss to do so after consistently causing problems between him and Kobe.

 

[Il Mediano]

he didn't "threaten" to go to chicago. he simply looked at the bulls as an option in case LA kept shaq. kobe didn't orchestrate anything. the lakers had to choose between shaq or kobe and they chose kobe. simple as that.

And you don't think that's a threat? Dear god. He made them choose between them. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Have you read Phil Jackson's book , "The Last Season"?

The Lakers had to make a decision, especially when Kobe forced their hand by saying that he wouldn’t come back next season if Shaq was still on the team. Revisionist history glosses over this fact, but in the book it clearly states that Phil had that exact conversation with Kobe, and Kobe re-signed with the Lakers the day after Shaq was traded. I mean , come on....

Phil also had this gem : "I won't coach this team next year if (Bryant) is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."

And also this gem : "He's not willing to let someone else's ideas penetrate his mind. Someone told me that in high school, Kobe used to sabotage his own games so the game could be close. So he could dominate at the end. To sabotage the team process, to be so self-centered in your own process ... it's almost stupefying."

Phil called Kobe out hard in his book , and Kobe hated him for it. If Kobe was staying with the Lakers after the loss to the Pistons , Shaq and Phil couldn't be there. I'm not making up anything. That's the ultimatum he gave Kupchak and Buss , and everyone knew it.

In Kobe's exit interview after that season he said : “I’m tired of being a sidekick.”

Dr. Buss said if Kobe leaves the Lakers, there will be no Lakers. He told Phil Jackson that if Kobe said that Jackson had to go for Kobe to stay, then bye. It was really that simple. Buss chose Kobe over Shaq and Phil , because that was the only way Kobe was staying a Laker.

what other superstars have carried teams with that bad of a roster into the playoffs and averaged 35 ppg? don't let your hate for kobe get in the way of recognizing how tough of a task that was. especially in the west

Why does it have to be 35 points, exactly? You do realize most superstars can score more , they just choose to involve their teammates?

A.I averaged 31 in 2000 , led his team to the playoffs. Not a great roster.
A.I averaged 31 in 2001 , and took an average roster to the finals
T-Mac averaged 32 in 2002 and took his team to the playoffs
A.I averaged 30 in 2004 and took his team to the playoffs
D-Wade averaged 30 in 08-09 and took an average team to the playoffs.

Those are the most Kobe-ish seasons in recent memory and they all found a way to get their teams to the playoffs. Some of them with arguably weaker rosters.

I mean, in 05-06 , Kobe averaged 28 FG attempts. Averaged. Duncan was never higher than 18 a game.

I don't hate Kobe , but I certainly don't like how overrated he is. Top 15-20 all time , sure. Close to Duncan? No.

 

[Il Mediano]

Shaq was clearly disinterested after the 2004 finals..

After the finals? He never played for the Lakers again after the 04 finals. He looked pretty interested in Miami.

Do you mean during the finals? The finals where Kobe famously went rogue and starting shooting outside of the flow of the offense like crazy? That finals?

Shaq averaged 26.6 points per game with a .631 field goal percentage, while Kobe averaged 22.6 points per game with a .381 field goal percentage against the Pistons.

His health was also in overall poor shape and he wasn't willing to budge on his contract demands. Plus Kobe didn't like the half ass effort Shaq would give at times and it drives an uber competitive person like Kobe nuts.

This is true.

Shaq had only wanted to stay if they gave him a raise, which wasn't smart as he was in his early 30s, had a bunch of wear and tear on his body and knew they could just as easily build around KB. He had little top no interest in being co-star with Kobe and while he didn't ask to be traded, he pretty much forced Buss to do so after consistently causing problems between him and Kobe.

Buss would've kept him if Kobe allowed it. Same with Phil. The contract demands were a bit much from Shaq-- agreed.

The co-star thing with Kobe was really Kobe's problem. Phil would always have Shaq as the number 1 option because the triangle was at it's best when Shaq was featured. Kobe would pick his spots and take over when the game needed it , but option 1 was always going to be O'neal with Phil around.

Kobe wanted his own team and he got his wish.

 

[Elvis P]

They both have 5 rings. Kobe won 2 w/o Shaq. Duncan won 3 w/o the Admiral. Shaq won one w/o Kobe. Robinson didn't win one w/o Duncan, although David was competing against Jordan and Olajuwon in their primes.

Comparing a shooting guard and a big man is apples and oranges.

 

[c9777666]

They both have 5 rings. Kobe won 2 w/o Shaq. Duncan won 3 w/o the Admiral. Shaq won one w/o Kobe. The Admiral didn't win one w/o Duncan, although he was competing against Jordan and Olajuwon in their primes.

Comparing a shooting guard and a big man is apples and oranges.

Not to mention the eras they played in- burst onto the scene when the NBA was slowdown central and adapted to higher-scoring eras.

 

[Maestro84]

And you don't think that's a threat? Dear god. He made them choose between them. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Have you read Phil Jackson's book , "The Last Season"?

The Lakers had to make a decision, especially when Kobe forced their hand by saying that he wouldn’t come back next season if Shaq was still on the team. Revisionist history glosses over this fact, but in the book it clearly states that Phil had that exact conversation with Kobe, and Kobe re-signed with the Lakers the day after Shaq was traded. I mean , come on....

Phil also had this gem : "I won't coach this team next year if (Bryant) is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."

And also this gem : "He's not willing to let someone else's ideas penetrate his mind. Someone told me that in high school, Kobe used to sabotage his own games so the game could be close. So he could dominate at the end. To sabotage the team process, to be so self-centered in your own process ... it's almost stupefying."

Phil called Kobe out hard in his book , and Kobe hated him for it. If Kobe was staying with the Lakers after the loss to the Pistons , Shaq and Phil couldn't be there. I'm not making up anything. That's the ultimatum he gave Kupchak and Buss , and everyone knew it.

In Kobe's exit interview after that season he said : “I’m tired of being a sidekick.”

Dr. Buss said if Kobe leaves the Lakers, there will be no Lakers. He told Phil Jackson that if Kobe said that Jackson had to go for Kobe to stay, then bye. It was really that simple. Buss chose Kobe over Shaq and Phil , because that was the only way Kobe was staying a Laker.



Why does it have to be 35 points, exactly? You do realize most superstars can score more , they just choose to involve their teammates?

A.I averaged 31 in 2000 , led his team to the playoffs. Not a great roster.
A.I averaged 31 in 2001 , and took an average roster to the finals
T-Mac averaged 32 in 2002 and took his team to the playoffs
A.I averaged 30 in 2004 and took his team to the playoffs
D-Wade averaged 30 in 08-09 and took an average team to the playoffs.

Those are the most Kobe-ish seasons in recent memory and they all found a way to get their teams to the playoffs. Some of them with arguably weaker rosters.

I mean, in 05-06 , Kobe averaged 28 FG attempts. Averaged. Duncan was never higher than 18 a game.

I don't hate Kobe , but I certainly don't like how overrated he is. Top 15-20 all time , sure. Close to Duncan? No.

Top 15-20 sounds a bit harsh. He's probably somewhere between 9-11 with players like Shaq and Hakeem. I agree that Duncan is clearly the greater player though.

 

[Terry Yake]

And you don't think that's a threat? Dear god. He made them choose between them. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Have you read Phil Jackson's book , "The Last Season"?

The Lakers had to make a decision, especially when Kobe forced their hand by saying that he wouldn’t come back next season if Shaq was still on the team. Revisionist history glosses over this fact, but in the book it clearly states that Phil had that exact conversation with Kobe, and Kobe re-signed with the Lakers the day after Shaq was traded. I mean , come on....

Phil also had this gem : "I won't coach this team next year if (Bryant) is still here. He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."

And also this gem : "He's not willing to let someone else's ideas penetrate his mind. Someone told me that in high school, Kobe used to sabotage his own games so the game could be close. So he could dominate at the end. To sabotage the team process, to be so self-centered in your own process ... it's almost stupefying."

Phil called Kobe out hard in his book , and Kobe hated him for it. If Kobe was staying with the Lakers after the loss to the Pistons , Shaq and Phil couldn't be there. I'm not making up anything. That's the ultimatum he gave Kupchak and Buss , and everyone knew it.

In Kobe's exit interview after that season he said : “I’m tired of being a sidekick.”

Dr. Buss said if Kobe leaves the Lakers, there will be no Lakers. He told Phil Jackson that if Kobe said that Jackson had to go for Kobe to stay, then bye. It was really that simple. Buss chose Kobe over Shaq and Phil , because that was the only way Kobe was staying a Laker.



Why does it have to be 35 points, exactly? You do realize most superstars can score more , they just choose to involve their teammates?

A.I averaged 31 in 2000 , led his team to the playoffs. Not a great roster.
A.I averaged 31 in 2001 , and took an average roster to the finals
T-Mac averaged 32 in 2002 and took his team to the playoffs
A.I averaged 30 in 2004 and took his team to the playoffs
D-Wade averaged 30 in 08-09 and took an average team to the playoffs.

Those are the most Kobe-ish seasons in recent memory and they all found a way to get their teams to the playoffs. Some of them with arguably weaker rosters.

I mean, in 05-06 , Kobe averaged 28 FG attempts. Averaged. Duncan was never higher than 18 a game.

I don't hate Kobe , but I certainly don't like how overrated he is. Top 15-20 all time , sure. Close to Duncan? No.

no, kobe did not MAKE the lakers choose. the lakers organization knew the two couldn't co-exist any longer. sure, kobe could have said he's not going to play in LA with shaq. shaq probably told the FO the same thing about kobe

yeah of course kobe was tired of being a sidekick, that was one of the main reasons he wanted shaq out. shaq couldn't handle sharing the spotlight with kobe any longer + their beef, which is why he wanted out. of course the lakers chose kobe. you really think they would have kept a 32 year old shaq on the downward spiral over 26 year old kobe just barely entering his prime? kobe didn't hold the lakers at gunpoint. the FO had a decision to make and they made the obvious one

kobe carrying those crappy lakers teams to the playoffs was special simply due to the absurd rate in which he was scoring. dropping 50 pts in 4 straight games for example. that's just nuts. and sure, there have been other guys who took teams to the playoffs with crappy rosters and scored close to 30 a game, but those lakers teams were some kind of awful. aside from an underachieving lamar odom there was no one. go ahead and bring up the number of shots he took. he was a SHOOTING guard. of course duncan's not going to average even close to that. comparing FG attempts between a shooting guard and a big man is laughable

just go ahead and admit you have a bias against the guy. top 15-20? lols. kobe and duncan are both top 10 players

 

[MMC]

I will never understand this boards disdain for Kobe Bryant

 

[dahrougem2]

So because Kobe Bryant didn't want an aging, soon-to-be out of shape Shaq on his team after the 2004 Finals loss, that's somehow held against Kobe?

You realize that Tim Duncan NEVER had to deal with anyone like Shaq, right? Duncan was very fortunate to be coached by Popovich and have teammates as unselfish as David Robinson, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli.

To me, Kobe was the better player than Duncan. I think Tim had more career success even though they had the same number of championships, but I prefer Kobe.

 

[Maestro84]

So because Kobe Bryant didn't want an aging, soon-to-be out of shape Shaq on his team after the 2004 Finals loss, that's somehow held against Kobe?

You realize that Tim Duncan NEVER had to deal with anyone like Shaq, right? Duncan was very fortunate to be coached by Popovich and have teammates as unselfish as David Robinson, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli.

To me, Kobe was the better player than Duncan. I think Tim had more career success even though they had the same number of championships, but I prefer Kobe.

Tbh I think it's the other way around. Parker and Ginobili were both low round draft picks that no other teams wanted, but fortunately for the two, they found themselves in the Spurs' team-first system established by Duncan/Pop which ultimately allowed both Tony and Manu (and Kawhi too later on) to transform into the players they ended up becoming.

 

[darko]

I don't think they are in the top 10.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

duncan never had to carry a team by himself. he always had an excellent surrounding cast

kobe did it for 2 seasons while putting up absolutely insane numbers. people forget that 06 lakers team was one win away from beating the suns in round 1 before tim thomas happened

The 06 Lakers were also handed game 4 by the refs against the Suns.

 

[Voight]

So because Kobe Bryant didn't want an aging, soon-to-be out of shape Shaq on his team after the 2004 Finals loss, that's somehow held against Kobe?

You realize that Tim Duncan NEVER had to deal with anyone like Shaq, right? Duncan was very fortunate to be coached by Popovich and have teammates as unselfish as David Robinson, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli.

To me, Kobe was the better player than Duncan. I think Tim had more career success even though they had the same number of championships, but I prefer Kobe.

Thank you.

I was always a fan of Shaqtus' personality but Duncan never had to deal with a guy who had an ego that big. The Admiral could have easily been a petty baby when Duncan became a star and out shined him, instead he knew it was what was best for the team and also helped him with two rings. Hell, playing in San Antonio probably helped with that.

 

[Terry Yake]

So because Kobe Bryant didn't want an aging, soon-to-be out of shape Shaq on his team after the 2004 Finals loss, that's somehow held against Kobe?

You realize that Tim Duncan NEVER had to deal with anyone like Shaq, right? Duncan was very fortunate to be coached by Popovich and have teammates as unselfish as David Robinson, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli.

To me, Kobe was the better player than Duncan. I think Tim had more career success even though they had the same number of championships, but I prefer Kobe.

soon to be out of shape?

shaq was notorious for showing up to training camp out of shape every year when he was a laker. as great as he was, its scary to think about how much better he would've been had he actually tried harder to stay in shape

 

[Il Mediano]

he was a SHOOTING guard. of course duncan's not going to average even close to that. comparing FG attempts between a shooting guard and a big man is laughable

FGA , or FG %? Because comparing attempts when you're trying to claim Kobe's scoring average is somehow something others couldn't do if they shot more is crazy to me. You think Lebron couldn't have averaged more PPG if he shot more? The same applies to Duncan. He could've averaged more , had he shot more. Kobe lead the league how many times in shot attempts? 7? 8?

If you're saying a SG's FG% compared to a big man's FG% is pointless , then I would tend to agree. It's completely different.

But, I was talking about attempts.

00 Lakers : Kobe 22 FGA vs 19 for Shaq.
01 Lakers : Kobe 20 FGA vs 18 for Shaq
02 Lakers : Kobe 23 FGA vs 18 for Shaq
03 Lakers : Kobe 18 vs 14 for Shaq

Kobe's FG%

00 - 46%
01- 47%
02- 45%
03- 44%

In his "hero" seasons with a trash roster:

2004-05 : FGA 20 , 43% 27 PPG
2005-06: FGA 28, 45% 35 PPG
2006-07 FGA 23 , 46% 31 PPG

Then , they add Gasol ; Fish comes back ; Bynum grows, and Odum is at his peak.

What are Kobe's numbers once he has a good team again?

FGA 20 , 46% , 28 PPG. AKA pretty much exactly in line with the rest of his career. Yes, he was unquestionably a huge (the only) reason as to why the Lakers did anything between Shaq and Gasol , but the PPG went up because he shot more. Which , as I was saying , could be said about almost any superstar in history. When they shoot more , they score more.

Basketball isn't like other sports , it's not like comparing goals in hockey. In basketball there's essentially 50 goals available every game per team , regardless of how good defensively you are. And when a superstar gets to shoot as much as Kobe , he's going to put up big numbers.

Yes, it's a feat he dragged a sorry team to the playoffs . But no, it's not something other stars couldn't do themselves. Using it against Duncan because he didn't put up a big PPG season on a terrible team , as if he's not capable of it (he clearly was) is just nuts. He could've put up insane numbers if he was more selfish.

just go ahead and admit you have a bias against the guy. top 15-20? lols. kobe and duncan are both top 10 players

We're all guilty of bias. But I genuinely have him in a lower tier. Still one of the best ever, though.