Line Combos: Who sits?

[zeke]

Fraser is a career ahler.

Ranger is a career #3 dman.

 

[Purity*]

No way Carlyle doesn't play Fraser, he absolutely LOVES Fraser, and I do too

Did you see how much traffic Chicago was putting in front of our net? That **** doesn't happen when Fraser's around. This is what happens when good players good injured, people forget what they can do. Fraser plays extremely reliable defense, doesn't hesitate to stand up for his team, plays a really physical game and our team defense is simply better with him.. i see everyone saying how we lack a physical stay-at-home D-man, is that not exactly what Fraser is? I would actually love to see Franson go back on a pairing with Fraser, Fraser is very good at stabilizing him and they compliment eachother very well, it was a good pairing last year.

All you number junkies need to start watching games, Fraser makes the defense better..

 

[zeke]

The Leafs played this same way with Fraser in the lineup last year.

In fact, they played better in the playoffs after Fraser was injured.

That's because Fraser isn't good.

 

[dballislife2]

all this fuss over a 5, 6, 7 depth chart defenseman?

 

[LeafalCrusader]

Gunnarsson Phaneuf
Gardiner Franson
Rielly Fraser

 

[veedubn1]

Yeah, it's clearly not at all Franson's fault that he makes the choice to pinch or when they are bad pinches. Obviously it's on the other guys on the team and Rielly that he makes those choices. Not at all an option for him to make responsible defensive decisions and not pinch as often when he doesn't have the speed to get back.

Many teams pinch to keep the puck in the offensive zone. It's a common play in the NHL and one of the forwards (usually the center) needs to recognize the pinch and cover for the defenseman. When the forward doesn't cover it leads to an odd man rush.

Rielly's job on those 2v1's is to eliminate the pass and make the shooter go 1v1 with the goalie from a bad angle. Both Leaf goalies are extremely good at covering the angles so there's no excuse for Rielly thinking he needs to do anything more than eliminate the pass. Unless it's Kessel or a similar calibre player coming down the wing with the puck I like our chances of diffusing that play ONLY IF the defenseman eliminates the pass.

If it was that easy to stop 2v1's, our scoring would go drastically down. Our offense is based off turnovers and creating odd man rushes. Don't know how you can expect a rookie to break up 2v1's regularly, when full time NHLers have a hard enough time doing that as it is.

Our 2v1's work because it's usually Kessel and JVR providing them and they can make anyone look stupid. Rielly got schooled by Pat Maroon ffs.

It's not Rielly's fault that he was put in that situation... but he needs to recognize that eliminating the pass gives us our best chance to prevent a goal. It's really quite simple.

 

[BigWilly]

He hasn't been that good defensively.

At the current state he is at, he isn't particularly good at anything. Just mediocre defensively and honestly pretty bad offensively. There's no need to rush him, we have capable players coming from the IR and in the AHL.

I honestly have no idea how someone can type this. Rielly has been damn good offensively.

 

[TheNuge]

Dont wanna throw any NHL calibur defenseman under the bus, but watching the leafs lately, its Ranger...Hes slow, takes stupid penalties, gets caught out of position frequently.

Rielly is too good to sit.

 

[Puckstuff]

Fraser is a career ahler.

Ranger is a career #3 dman.

maybe in your world

 

[JAMmer124]

Fraser is a career ahler.

Ranger is a career #3 dman.

Ranger has been atrocious in the first 10 games. Just awful. The guy was a #3 dman 4 years ago. Whats happened in those 4 years? He took two seasons off COMPLETELY and then played one season in the AHL. At this point, Fraser is better. Fraser gives you the same thing every game. Toughness, clearing the front of the net, and protecting our goaltender. The only thing Ranger gives consistently is scoring chances and powerplays to the other team.

If Ranger were to have his game return to previous form, then absolutely he is better than Fraser. Ranger's game is nowhere close to where it was in Tampa, though he was better last night.

 

[DaveT83*]

Ranger sits without a doubt.

 

[Orfieus]

I just don't see how Rielly will be staying. TO does not need an offensive defensive man, with Phaneuf, Franson and Gardiner on the team Rielly is not needed for his offence.

What we need is someone who plays well in his own end, and that has not been Rielly. Gardiner's play has been improving and he played great against Anaheim.

Franson - Gardiner
Ranger - Fraser

will be my guess at a bottom pairing. I really do hope Rielly is sent down.

 

[zeke]

Ranger has been atrocious in the first 10 games. Just awful. The guy was a #3 dman 4 years ago. Whats happened in those 4 years? He took two seasons off COMPLETELY and then played one season in the AHL. At this point, Fraser is better. Fraser gives you the same thing every game. Toughness, clearing the front of the net, and protecting our goaltender. The only thing Ranger gives consistently is scoring chances and powerplays to the other team.

If Ranger were to have his game return to previous form, then absolutely he is better than Fraser. Ranger's game is nowhere close to where it was in Tampa, though he was better last night.

Ranger has been excellent the last 5gms, and is already playing at a level far, far beyond where Fraser ever could.

 

[PuckMagi]

I would use these lines:

Gardiner - Phaneuf
Rielly - Franson
Ranger - Gunner
Fraser

I would give these lines a try for a while. I like Gunner, but I don't really consider him an elite defenseman, whereas Gardiner (while not perfect) has a ton of skill. I think him and Phaneuf would actually work well together. They both have the ability to log a lot of ice time. I think that Phanuef would benefit from having a puck-handling defenseman as a partner because even though Phaneuf is capable of doing this, Gardiner is as good as it gets in this respect. And if Gardiner messes up, he'll likely have Phanuef backing him up. And also, when Gardiner is being creative with the puck, he'll be able to set up Phaneuf for one timers much more effectively than Gunner can. The downside of course is that we like to pair Phaneuf up against their best players, which forces Gardiner to defend against tough competition.

I also think it's easy to bring in Fraser in place of Rielly or Ranger if need be. Maybe if we're facing a big, tough team... put Fraser in the lineup instead of Rielly. If Ranger is struggling mid way through the sesaon, then give Fraser some games.

Like when we play Buffalo this season... for sure let Fraser play over Rielly.

Or I think what would be best would be to rotate Ranger, Rielly and Fraser. Both Ranger and Rielly aren't exactly used to playing a full NHL pre-season, plus a full NHL season, plus NHL playoffs. So if those three guys rotate, they only play about 2/3rds of the schedule. That should be much more mangaeable and provide a better transition into the NHL for Rielly and Ranger. It also gets everyone playing so that if there is another injury, we've got someone in game shape ready to go.

 

[Asif16*]

Ranger has been excellent the last 5gms, and is already playing at a level far, far beyond where Fraser ever could.

 

[Mr Scarface*]

No way Carlyle doesn't play Fraser, he absolutely LOVES Fraser, and I do too

Did you see how much traffic Chicago was putting in front of our net? That **** doesn't happen when Fraser's around. This is what happens when good players good injured, people forget what they can do. Fraser plays extremely reliable defense, doesn't hesitate to stand up for his team, plays a really physical game and our team defense is simply better with him.. i see everyone saying how we lack a physical stay-at-home D-man, is that not exactly what Fraser is? I would actually love to see Franson go back on a pairing with Fraser, Fraser is very good at stabilizing him and they compliment eachother very well, it was a good pairing last year.

All you number junkies need to start watching games, Fraser makes the defense better..

I like that use of words there... number junkies
You are very much correct there.

Fraser's game is D-game at its purest. Makes us a better team and you have been watching these games sir. Not numbers.
We got too many offensive minded, light weight d-men playing at the moment. Need to get back on track with that montreal pushing killer fraser.

 

[ponder]

IMO one of Ranger, Fraser or Gunnarsson should sit when we're 100% healthy. Probably Ranger.

With that being said, it's pretty common that at least one of your top 6 is injured/suspended/sick/whatever at any given point in time. Whoever it is that sits likely will not be sitting for too long. We've got 7 NHL quality dmen, that's certainly not a bad problem to have.

Hopefully we don't send Rielly down just because he's young. He's already been pretty good, and if he stays up all season I have to imagine he'll be quite a bit better by the end of the year than he is now. He's too good for juniors, at this point he'll develop faster in the NHL than the WHL, and it's in our best interest for him to be a high impact NHLer as soon as possible.

 

[Hibachi]

The Leafs played this same way with Fraser in the lineup last year.

In fact, they played better in the playoffs after Fraser was injured.

That's because Fraser isn't good.

Actually thats pretty accurate, we didn't miss a beat once Fraser went down, maybe even started playing a bit better. He's just too slow, and it wasn't like Bos is exactly a fast team by any means.

 

[ULF_55]

Carlyle uses Gunnarsson the most on his PK for defenders.

A minute more than Franson and close to twice as much as Ranger.

No one cares what I or other posters think, Carlyle makes the only decisions that matter.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

People need to understand Carl Gunnarsson will not be scratched unless he is hurt..period. You may not like the way he plays but Randy Carlyle does and he relies on him A LOT as evidenced by the fact that he's our #1 PK defenseman in SHTOI/G (3:33). If Randy wasn't happy with Gunnarsson's play he would simply limit his minutes and play him on the bottom 4 defense pairings. Instead he's played alongside Dion Phaneuf on our top pairing and is trusted to face the oppositions toughest offensive players night-in, night-out.

I think once Mark Fraser is ready to go Carlyle will wait until one of defenseman have a truly bad game or show signs of fatigue to allow Fraser to play his way back into the lineup. You've got to remember, neither Paul Ranger or Morgan Rielly have played a full 82GP NHL schedule in years (or in Rielly's case..ever) and as a defenseman the game can truly wear you down over the course of a long season.

Fraser brings some very important elements to our line-up that we sorely lack. Physicality from the back end, toughess, and really what I miss most is his no-nonsense approach to defense. He knows his limits and plays within them. He knows what his role is on the Toronto Maple Leafs and fulfills them. He'll block a shot with his face, lay out opposition forwards and answer the bell in terms of fighting when the opportunity arises. He doesn't try to make fancy offensive plays but rather defers to his partner to carry the puck and makes the safe defensive play 99% of the time. He plays like a veteran and I think he's a very good defenseman to carry as your #6.

 

[diceman934]

Morgan will be here all year, the Leafs will be moving a D man in the next week.

 

[DjD4GGR]

Why not dress 7 defenseman

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Clarkson
Raymond-Bolland-Kulemin
Orr/McLaren-Mcclement

Phaneuf-Gunnarsson
Fraser-Gardiner-Franson
Fraser-Rielly-Ranger

 

[LeafOfBread]

It's funny how hard it is for posters to not get over stereotypes, seriously. Ranger has played well for a few games now and had his best game of the season against Anaheim. It's pathetic how desperate people are for a whipping boy.

 

[TootooTrain]

The Leafs played this same way with Fraser in the lineup last year.

In fact, they played better in the playoffs after Fraser was injured.

That's because Fraser isn't good.

For the playoffs sure. For the 82 game grind, I want Fraser in the lineup. In this particular situation, you CAN have your cake and eat it too.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

It's funny how hard it is for posters to not get over stereotypes, seriously. Ranger has played well for a few games now and had his best game of the season against Anaheim. It's pathetic how desperate people are for a whipping boy.

Exactly. Ranger is not leaving. He is turning out to be a two-way #3 with the potential to go onto the top pairing. Seeing that he wants to stay here, we can sign him for cheap long-term.

Carlyle knows this and that's why he's third in ES TOI over the 10 games. His minutes has increased and that has been due to excellent play.