Who is The Leafs Most Underrated Player?

[headwire]

Voted Clarkson because he's not nearly as bad as people say he is. I'm not saying he's good, mind you, but he's not terrible.

 

[TheThrill81*]

Bozak and Phaneuf are both good options. I picked Bozak because he was underrated from the start and he always has been. Phaneuf was overrated at the start and that realization caused him to eventually become underrated.

Phaneuf was overrated at the start? Interesting, I didn't realize we were allowed to pass off opinions as fact.

 

[Nithoniniel]

the players know, the rest is noise.

If there's one thing I've learned over many years of watching sports it's that players, in any sport, don't generally analyze the game or other players much better than the average fan. There's a reason you see former player after former player fail horribly as analysts.

 

[Atomos2]

Phaneuf was overrated at the start? Interesting, I didn't realize we were allowed to pass off opinions as fact.

He was in Calgary. He was having 50+ pt seasons and was a Norris finalist to Lidstrom but he was doing it behind easier competition and a lot of PP time. It doesn't take anything away from what he has done now, but the hype he had made him seem like a perrenial norris contender. Now other people don't even see him as a number one dman, despite all the signs pointing to him as one.

And since when did I call it a fact? Do I really need to add (imo) after every single post or can people just make that natural assumption?

 

[ULF_55]

That was done once, several years ago, with only a handful of players involved in the voting.

You realize a very, very, very small minority of Leafs' fans will vote here.

The ESPN poll would have had a greater percentage of players vote in their poll than we'll see here.

 

[calcal798]

Phaneuf, I can remember at Christmas when people were saying he should be on the Olympic team. The last 15 games of the season just totally changed peoples perception of him.

I greatly disagree with those saying Franson. The guy should be a third pairing PP specialist, and this year he was given top four ice time and chances on the PK, which exposed his weak defensive side and which I think earned him a lot of the slack that he gets.

 

[ACC1224]

That was done once, several years ago, with only a handful of players involved in the voting.

It was a very small sample size, it turned out to be something like 8 players and he barely beat out some big names.
It's certainly nothing to hang ones hat on, although I suppose there isn't much else.

 

[Mess]

Phaneuf, I can remember at Christmas when people were saying he should be on the Olympic team. The last 15 games of the season just totally changed peoples perception of him.

Phaneuf is now the victim of his own play.. During the last 20 games of the NHL season Phaneuf posted a brutal -18 +/- (2nd worst mark in the entire NHL).

Fans and media criticized Phaneuf for his poor play as the captain was at the forefront of the teams collapse.. He was playing far below his own abilities down the stretch, was on the ice for most of the teams goals against, while Leafs fell from an almost certain playoff spot into oblivion losing 12 of their last 14 games.

Phaneuf is paid like a 8 out of 10, generally performs like a 6 out of 10 and played the last 20 games resulting in non playoffs as a 3 out of 10.

Its now that criticism that was warranted to hold him accountable for his play on the ice that leaves the impression he is underrated by Leaf fans. Underrated is usually associated with undervalued or under-appreciated but in this case it was for underperforming in Phaneuf's case.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Also worth noting that he was getting criticism around here during the playoffs and in our previous meltdowns. There is a pattern there that either says that the team collapses when Dion is doing badly, or that he is notoriously bad when things are not going our way. Or perhaps a combination of both.

 

[BillyD]

Phaneuf, I can remember at Christmas when people were saying he should be on the Olympic team. The last 15 games of the season just totally changed peoples perception of him.

I greatly disagree with those saying Franson. The guy should be a third pairing PP specialist, and this year he was given top four ice time and chances on the PK, which exposed his weak defensive side and which I think earned him a lot of the slack that he gets.

in the outside world there were actually very few people suggesting Dion play in the Olympics

most, probably including Dion, understood his invitation to the ball hockey camp in Calgary last off-season for what it was - a courtesy by Hockey Canada for playing in the World Championships when the big boys were playing for the Stanley Cup

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

"If Scott Hartnell says Dion sucks, it must be true!"
"But you're not really supporting your position that Dion is overrated in any meaningful way. You're just making an appeal to authority. Some scientists will tell you that global warming is a hoax. That doesn't mean they're right simply by virtue of being scientists."
"Yeah, but if Scott Hartnell says Dion sucks, it must be true!"
"....."

 

[TheThrill81*]

He was in Calgary. He was having 50+ pt seasons and was a Norris finalist to Lidstrom but he was doing it behind easier competition and a lot of PP time. It doesn't take anything away from what he has done now, but the hype he had made him seem like a perrenial norris contender. Now other people don't even see him as a number one dman, despite all the signs pointing to him as one.

He was still a young rising star in Calgary, he was being eased into the role for when he could eventually handle top pairing minutes. And getting PP time is what usually happens with top d-men who produce. His hype was justified. And I don't care what other delusional people think, he's still a number one. Any sensible hockey fan knows this. The fact that he can be an effective shutdown defenceman while still chip in offensively without the presence of a stable veteran partner (like he had in Calgary) is a testament to that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

in the outside world there were actually very few people suggesting Dion play in the Olympics

most, probably including Dion, understood his invitation to the ball hockey camp in Calgary last off-season for what it was - a courtesy by Hockey Canada for playing in the World Championships when the big boys were playing for the Stanley Cup

Yeah, sure thing buddy.

 

[Atomos2]

He was still a young rising star in Calgary, he was being eased into the role for when he could eventually handle top pairing minutes. And getting PP time is what usually happens with top d-men who produce. His hype was justified. And I don't care what other delusional people think, he's still a number one. Any sensible hockey fan knows this. The fact that he can be an effective shutdown defenceman while still chip in offensively without the presence of a stable veteran partner (like he had in Calgary) is a testament to that.

These are posts I've made about Phaneuf in the past week:

Based on the actual position, Phaneuf is about as #1 as a defenceman can get in the NHL when you consider he's on the 1st PP, on the 1st PK, leads his team in icetime, plays the toughest competition in the league and plays head to head match ups every game, is a plus player (may mean nothing, but Flames fans were using this as an argument to why Backlund is better than Gardiner so I thought I might as well add it in). Decent offense.

Obviously, although it would never happen. I have him as the 11th best dman in the NHL. Phaneuf is tied for 16th.

You're the one missing the point. You realize in the 2013 season Phaneuf played that exact same role when the leafs made it to the playoffs. For the first half of last season, Phaneuf was a top 10 in most defensive categories. And he has one of (if not) the lowest defensive zone starts in the league. He's a top 20 dman and a number one defenceman, the stats prove it.

But you also need to put the whole situation in context. Back when Phaneuf had more defensive depth to rely on (higher quality of teammates) and less defensive zone starts, and weaker competition, he was putting up elite numbers. If he was behind a stronger defensive core like St. Louis or even Tampa, where he can actually focus a bit more on offense and not have to worry about being "the shutdown match-up guy" its not that big of a stretch to think his numbers bump up to 40-45 pts, maybe more.

You don't have to convince me that Phaneuf is a number one dman.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Kadri for sure.

Don't know why anybody's critical of him.

At the age of 23 he has now reached both 20 goals and 50 points. As a number TWO center, with number two minutes.
Considering our 28 year old NUMBER ONE center has never matched those numbers (regardless of excuses, such as injuries), I'd say that's not too shabby for Kadri.

We can hope Kadri is better this year, but to answer your question, Advanced stats say, Kadri also had the easiest QOC for Centers, highest offensive zone starts, was 7th in PP TOI%, had the 4th best QOT for fwds on the team last year. He was put in an advantageous position to succeed. Given this maybe some people expect more than a 50 point, -11 season.

 

[diceman934]

How is this still available there should be at least a option to pick any player on the team as most underrated as the post is used to elicit only a predefined result.

Gardiner is more underrated then anyone on the list and it is not even close. Many on the list are overrated.

 

[diceman934]

We can hope Kadri is better this year, but to answer your question, Advanced stats say, Kadri also had the easiest QOC for Centers, highest offensive zone starts, was 7th in PP TOI%, had the 4th best QOT for fwds on the team last year. He was put in an advantageous position to succeed. Given this maybe some people expect more than a 50 point, -11 season.

You posted in another thread that Grab does not make the players around him better and you used the fact that his highest assist totals was 29 as your proof. Well why not apply that same thought process to Bozak who despite playing with point per game wingers has never produced more than 30 assists and never had a 50 point season. You attack Kadri who Has had the same 30 assist while playing less minutes a game and on the 2nd PP Unit. His point per game is vastly superior to Bozak. You mention plus minus as further proof and you seem to like to use career average as proof to your opinions ...Kadri a career plus 2 player..Bozak is a career minus 40 playing on a top offensive line.

 

[false bobo]

Gardiner

 

[The Winter Soldier]

If Gardiner was added, then Rielly would have to be added. Why not Holland, Bodie, Franson, and Reimer? These are the correct players for this poll.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You posted in another thread that Grab does not make the players around him better and you used the fact that his highest assist totals was 29 as your proof. Well why not apply that same thought process to Bozak who despite playing with point per game wingers has never produced more than 30 assists and never had a 50 point season. You attack Kadri who Has had the same 30 assist while playing less minutes a game and on the 2nd PP Unit. His point per game is vastly superior to Bozak. You mention plus minus as further proof and you seem to like to use career average as proof to your opinions ...Kadri a career plus 2 player..Bozak is a career minus 40 playing on a top offensive line.

I was replying to Disgruntled claims. If you want to discuss this, I would be happy to discuss this on another thread. Let's keep this thread clean so mods have less work and this thread is not derailed.

 

[ACC1224]

If Gardiner was added, then Rielly would have to be added. Why not Holland, Bodie, Franson, and Reimer? These are the correct players for this poll.

Gardiner isn't underrated in the least.

It's no surprise Phanuef is taking this one.

 

[false bobo]

If Gardiner was added, then Rielly would have to be added. Why not Holland, Bodie, Franson, and Reimer? These are the correct players for this poll.

What does Rielly have to do with Gardiner?

 

[Atomos2]

Gardiner isn't underrated in the least.

It's no surprise Phanuef is taking this one.

Yes Gardiner is underrated. I love Rielly, but ever since we picked him, Gardiner's play has been viewed upon as redundant by quite a few people here (I must include myself as well) despite the fact that he has shown at times he can be an elite puck mover in this league and has been slowly getting top pairing minutes.

 

[ACC1224]

Yes Gardiner is underrated. I love Rielly, but ever since we picked him, Gardiner's play has been viewed upon as redundant by quite a few people here (I must include myself as well) despite the fact that he has shown at times he can be an elite puck mover in this league and has been slowly getting top pairing minutes.

I must have missed the "redundant" posts, seen lots of the "elite" ones though.

 

[nsleaf]

There are no under-rated players on the Leafs. There are many over-rated players on the Leafs.