Who is the greatest goal scorer to ever play?

[Semantics]

Mario Lemieux, and it's not even close. He could do all the things the other great players could as far as goal scoring, and then he could do things nobody else could.

 

[Shadyone33]

Greatest Goal Scorer: Gretzky
Most Exciting Goal Scorer: Lemieux
Most Clutch: Richard

My favorite? Lemieux. He was just so talented with the puck.

 

[Sleeping Bear]

most prolific?

When you say greatest, if you look at the stats (both per-and post NHL) lifetime is E.C. newsy Lalonde with an average of 1,4 goals per game (454 goals in 345 games) Single season is Joe Malone with 2,08 for the 1921 season. Too bad these records don't make it into the HHoF logs, since they sem to think nothing existed before 1925 or thereabouts

 

[arrbez]

When you say greatest, if you look at the stats (both per-and post NHL) lifetime is E.C. newsy Lalonde with an average of 1,4 goals per game (454 goals in 345 games) Single season is Joe Malone with 2,08 for the 1921 season. Too bad these records don't make it into the HHoF logs, since they sem to think nothing existed before 1925 or thereabouts

Well I think there's fairly obvious reasons why you need to be suspicious of a man scoring at a 170 goal pace.

Joe Malone was a sorcerer. A practitioner of black magic, if you will. There's no other explaination.

 

[BNHL]

Until someone tops Gretzky's 92-71-87-73 back to back to back to back I'd say the debate has no substance.

 

[arrbez]

Until someone tops Gretzky's 92-71-87-73 back to back to back to back I'd say the debate has no substance.

Just for arguments sake, Brett Hull's 3 year peak actually comes out ahead of Gretzky's using stats that have been adjusted for era. (His 1991 season could be the most dominant scoring performance of the modern era. His 86 goals was a full 35 ahead of anyone else.)

Guys like Mike Bossy and Bobby Hull never quite reached those heights, but they were more consistant throughout their careers than Brett Hull or Gretzky were, and would likely have a pile more goals if Bossy was healthy and Hull stayed in the NHL.

And then there's Lemieux, who could very easily have the most goals ever with a healthy career.

Not to mention Rocket Richard, who many claim is the most clutch scorer of all time.

I'm a little hesitant to directly compare scoring stats from the pre-war NHL, but guys like Charlie Conacher and Howie Morenz were extremely dominant as well.

There's plenty of substantial debates to be made.

 

[golfortennis]

yeah but you are talking about one season, CAREER wise I would have to disagree. In his last 8 season's he didn't have a season in which he scored more than 38 goals. I mean whether he was on a good team or not he should still be able to produce goals! I mean come on. Lemieux had NO ONE for a few years there and still spread out his goals in his career rather nicely. And all you guy make this big deal about gretz scoring 90 some odd goals in a season, but if I remember correctly #66 had 85 in one season! Seeing him play was a privelage (never lucky enough to see Gretzky, but I woulda booed him on the Rags lol).

Well let's see here then. Bossy seems to be bought up often. Gretzky had 637 goals his first 10 seasons. How many did Bossy have? He played 10 years. 543 during the same time he and Bossy played.

If you are going to discount him because he got his back screwed up at 30, and hold his last 8 years against him, well then you have impossibly high standards.

 

[BNHL]

Just for arguments sake, Brett Hull's 3 year peak actually comes out ahead of Gretzky's using stats that have been adjusted for era. (His 1991 season could be the most dominant scoring performance of the modern era. His 86 goals was a full 35 ahead of anyone else.)

Guys like Mike Bossy and Bobby Hull never quite reached those heights, but they were more consistant throughout their careers than Brett Hull or Gretzky were, and would likely have a pile more goals if Bossy was healthy and Hull stayed in the NHL.

And then there's Lemieux, who could very easily have the most goals ever with a healthy career.

Not to mention Rocket Richard, who many claim is the most clutch scorer of all time.

I'm a little hesitant to directly compare scoring stats from the pre-war NHL, but guys like Charlie Conacher and Howie Morenz were extremely dominant as well.

There's plenty of substantial debates to be made.

But I gave you 4 years not 3,how about 5? 6? 10? Bring all those numbers across eras.

 

[arrbez]

But I gave you 4 years not 3,how about 5? 6? 10? Bring all those numbers across eras.

Do they have to be consecutive years for any particular reason?

If you compare their 4 best years, Hull and Gretzky actually come out tied (Lemieux comes out ahead of them both).

For their 10 best years, I'm certain Brett Hull would come out on top. He was an effective goal scorer his whole career, while Gretzky was pretty much a pure playmaker by the end.

Gretzky was essentially done as a great goalscorer by his late 20's. Basing it on career rather than prime probably weakens his claim to the title, rather than strengthening it.



I don't have the stats on this computer, but I'll try to get the info up later.

 

[pappyline]

I copied the info below from a post Pitseleh made in another thread.


You missed arguably the most dominant of them all, Bobby Hull:

He scored 50 when the next best had 33.

He scored 54 when the next best had 32.

He scored 52 when the next best had 35.

He scored 58 when the next best had 49.

 

[arrbez]

I copied the info below from a post Pitseleh made in another thread.


You missed arguably the most dominant of them all, Bobby Hull:

He scored 50 when the next best had 33.

He scored 54 when the next best had 32.

He scored 52 when the next best had 35.

He scored 58 when the next best had 49.

touche

Does anyone have the stats for Esposito in this regard?

 

[TheBannermen]

If i had to to put one guy on the ice to get me a do or die goal it would be Mario.

 

[pappyline]

touche

Does anyone have the stats for Esposito in this regard?

Espo numbers from the same Pitseleh post

76 compared to 51.
66 compared to 50.
68 compared to 52.

 

[golfortennis]

Something else people always leave out: When talking about Lemieux, there is always "well if it wasn't for the injuries"....Well, Gretzky missed 16 games in 87-88, the first year he lost out on the scoring title. Using his goal scoring pace of the season, that's another 10 goals, and then in 92-93, he missed the first 35 games with the back surgery. He was still neck and neck with Lemieux for best player(if anyone wants to say it was hands down Lemieux please explain how that Kings team is playing for the Stanley Cup otherwise).

He scored 2 goals his second game back in 92-93, then only once in his next twenty, which would sugggest to me that he was far more comfortable passing coming off the back injury. He won the scoring title the next year, so he was far from done as a dominant player.

Yes I know the total is less than Lemieux's games missed, but when you figure that at the very least, the first scoring title lost had as much to do with missed time as Lemieux being better(it would have been close, may still have been 66's), and then missing half a season at age 31 when he was still on top of the league, that is significant time to miss as well, and Gretzky would have likely put the goal record even further out than he did. Somehow I think if we were talking 950 gaols goals intead of 894 Gretzky is looked at differently in this argument.

Despite all this though, Bossy may have been the purest goal scorer there was. And as much as I hate the Habs, don't discount Guy Lafleur, or the Rocket. Remember who was first.(I'll admit I haven't read all 7 pages, only about 4 so that may have been mentioned.)

 

[arrbez]

Something else people always leave out: When talking about Lemieux, there is always "well if it wasn't for the injuries"....Well, Gretzky missed 16 games in 87-88, the first year he lost out on the scoring title. Using his goal scoring pace of the season, that's another 10 goals, and then in 92-93, he missed the first 35 games with the back surgery. He was still neck and neck with Lemieux for best player(if anyone wants to say it was hands down Lemieux please explain how that Kings team is playing for the Stanley Cup otherwise).

He scored 2 goals his second game back in 92-93, then only once in his next twenty, which would sugggest to me that he was far more comfortable passing coming off the back injury. He won the scoring title the next year, so he was far from done as a dominant player.

Yes I know the total is less than Lemieux's games missed, but when you figure that at the very least, the first scoring title lost had as much to do with missed time as Lemieux being better(it would have been close, may still have been 66's), and then missing half a season at age 31 when he was still on top of the league, that is significant time to miss as well, and Gretzky would have likely put the goal record even further out than he did. Somehow I think if we were talking 950 gaols goals intead of 894 Gretzky is looked at differently in this argument.

Sure, nobody plays a full career at 100% health. However, the amount of time missed and severity of Gretzky's are hard to compare to Lemieux's.

I mean, in the same fashion you're handing him Lemieux's scoring title in 1988, you could hand a couple of Gretzky's back to Lemieux in years like 1990, 1991, and 1994. But this is going to take the thread way off course, so let's stick to the topic at hand: goals.

Even with Lemieux playing a moderately healthy career, I can certainly see Gretzky ending up with more career points. However, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that Lemieux would have more goals.

From his rookie season untill his first retirement in 1997, Mario Lemieux scored an astonishing 633 goals in 714 games over 12 seasons.

From the same age (his second year in the NHL) through his 12th season, Wayne Gretzky scored 689 goals...but did it in 920 games.

Just to pro-rate that, Lemieux was scoring at a pace that would have given him around 815 goals by age 32 if he had played the same amount of games as Gretzky. Would he have scored at exactly this pace? No way to tell. But that fact that it's SO much higher than Gretzky's and it doesn't take into account things like cancer, rust, or his degenerative back condition, I feel it's pretty good evidence.

While their primes are similar, Lemieux was able to be a dominant goal scorer much later into his career than Gretzky was. I think this is partially due to the fact that Lemieux's skillset was better tailored to the clutch-and-grab era, and the rise of the butterfly goalie (Gretzky relied heavily on his slapshot, which was a more effective weapon against stand-up goalies). Just my take on that one.

Gretzky was the best playmaker ever, but Lemieux was the better goal scorer.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Mario Lemieux followed by Gretzky. I only wish Lemieux had gretzky's supporting cast in his first 7 years instead of AHL sensations like Errey and Brown

 

[Sens Rule]

Mario Lemieux followed by Gretzky. I only wish Lemieux had gretzky's supporting cast in his first 7 years instead of AHL sensations like Errey and Brown

Gretzky had his share of AHL like players in his first two NHL years. But it would have been pretty cool if Mario had emerged on a very good team his first 5 or 6 years. Would have been a site to see. I wonder who good Mario was... before the injuries... before the cancer. Maybe what he did in Pittsburgh wasn't really doing justice to what he could have done. Maybe with Vets around him... like say if he went to Boston or Philly instead of Pittsburgh... he would have won a Cup or two earlier in his career. Clearly Mario needed to grow up... and he didn't for a few years.. though he was still great. But if as a rookie he was in a winning situation with great Vets to lead him along maybe he becomes the winner Mario as soon as a his rookie season.

But what coulda beens are pointless. And as limited an overall player as Rob Brown was he was a great offensive talent. I don't know if there are that many players that aren't HHOFers that could have done more for Mario's offensive production in his earlier years than Brown did. They might have helped the Pens win more games but probably wouldn't have got Mario more points than Brown did.

 

[arrbez]

Mario Lemieux followed by Gretzky. I only wish Lemieux had gretzky's supporting cast in his first 7 years instead of AHL sensations like Errey and Brown

I really don't like the linemate argument. Gretzky had better supporting players earlier in their careers, but Lemieux had the better supporting cast later on. Gretzky was never on a "great" team past age 27, whereas Lemieux had great linemates into his 30's in Pittsburgh. It all kinda works out.

 

[Legionnaire]

Gretzky was the best at "put it where they weren't", Bossy was the master of putting it "where they were". You decide what's better.

 

[Dark Shadows]

I really don't like the linemate argument. Gretzky had better supporting players earlier in their careers, but Lemieux had the better supporting cast later on. Gretzky was never on a "great" team past age 27, whereas Lemieux had great linemates into his 30's in Pittsburgh. It all kinda works out.

Not really because Lemieux got his good linemates past his prime. Gretzky had them during his prime.

I see Lemieux with a few 200 point seasons + breaking the goal scoring record with different linemates in 89.

 

[Sleeping Bear]

Well I think there's fairly obvious reasons why you need to be suspicious of a man scoring at a 170 goal pace.

Joe Malone was a sorcerer. A practitioner of black magic, if you will. There's no other explaination.

Ya and he stole Newsy's number, if I remember right, Newsy was the first #4 tha Canadiens had

 

[arrbez]

Not really because Lemieux got his good linemates past his prime. Gretzky had them during his prime.

I see Lemieux with a few 200 point seasons + breaking the goal scoring record with different linemates in 89.

Sure, he would have broken 200 points with Kurri on his wing in 1989...but so what? Does that make him any better or worse as a player?

I believe Lemieux is the best forward to ever play the game, but I think people go overboard with the crappy team theories.

Lemieux's prime was the early 90's, and those teams were hella stacked offensively.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Sure, he would have broken 200 points with Kurri on his wing in 1989...but so what? Does that make him any better or worse as a player?

I believe Lemieux is the best forward to ever play the game, but I think people go overboard with the crappy team theories.

Lemieux's prime was the early 90's, and those teams were hella stacked offensively.

No. The argument is specifically for those who just say "Look at Gretzky's stats! Game over nobody else counts!!!!!!!"

Lemieux's prime was the late 80's and early 90's IMO. Linemates play a huge role in numbers, regardless of how great a player is.

Coffey was the most important helper to either player because of his sick breakout passes and ability to act as a 4th Forward with his slick skating. Gretzky and Lemieux still claim nobody was better at that tape to tape Behind the net to center ice pass than Coffey, and both credit tons of their success to him as well.

The numbers agree. Both players had their high's with Coffey on the backend and dropped without him.

 

[cupcrazyman]

My guess would the player with the most goals.

#99 Wayne Gretzky

 

[Dark Shadows]

I rest my case.....