Who is the closest to be dethroned on their respective position: Orr or Howe?

[Plural]

No


Howe was a smart but not fast or quick enough to play center.

That surprises me. I always thought he was at least average in speed and quickness.

 

[Canadiens1958]

That surprises me. I always thought he was at least average in speed and quickness.

Not for a center.

 

[VanIslander]

Omg.

Please read what i cited and/or go to bios referenced for specific citations against this repeated nonsense about Howe's skating.

 

[Plural]

Not for a center.

Yeah. I don't think that's true at all. I've yet seen any substance to that claim.

 

[K Fleur]

Has there historically been a discernible difference in speed with Wingers/Centers?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Omg.

Please read what i cited and/or go to bios referenced for specific citations against this repeated nonsense about Howe's skating.

Again, none of the citations stated that Howe should have played center.

Plenty of Howe's contemporaries started as centers and were switched to wing at the NHL level. Short list - Maurice Richard, Bobby Hull, Dickie Moore, Frank Mahovlich.

You insist on framing the issue in the context of Howe's skating which is not being debated.

Issue is whether ir was suitable for the center position.

 

[Plural]

Has there historically been a discernible difference in speed with Wingers/Centers?

Not necessarily speed but in agility and quickness. At least that's my interpretation.

 

[K Fleur]

Not necessarily speed but in agility and quickness. At least that's my interpretation.

Ah gotcha.

It's funny cause when I think of "speed" players historically wingers come to mind first(Richard, Bure etc.) with the exception of McDavid.

 

[Plural]

Ah gotcha.

It's funny cause when I think of "speed" players historically wingers come to mind first(Richard, Bure etc.) with the exception of McDavid.

Same to me. Speedy players were guys like Bure, Selanne, Ovechkin, Richard, etc.

I guess centers have more duties backwards which is why we don't get the impression of speed so often.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Good skaters != speed necessarily. There's more to skating than being fast. There's limited benefit to being fast if you don't have it as part of a complete skating package...multi-directional mobility, small area footwork, starts and stops, etc.

Howe was fine when he got a head of steam going...just like I am haha...but he lacked good small area footwork, he lacked four-way mobility, not a very smooth stride...now, that doesn't subtract 400 goals from his career total or anything, he is what he is...but he wasn't a very gifted skater...think maybe Jamie Benn today, stronger build, built for power, not for quickness...

Also, like Benn, was scarcely used at center, even in his youth...tried at center in the NHL, but is better as a power winger...

 

[VanIslander]

Good skaters != speed necessarily. There's more to skating than being fast. There's limited benefit to being fast if you don't have it as part of a complete skating package...multi-directional mobility, small area footwork, starts and stops, etc.

Howe was fine when he got a head of steam going...just like I am haha...but he lacked good small area footwork, he lacked four-way mobility, not a very smooth stride... ...he wasn't a very gifted skater...

Farkas, I've respected much that you've written. But I have no idea where this is coming from.

I will cite no less than a dozen specific references to the contrary before the month is out. (It's the weekend on my smartphone. I don't even know if/how I could cut and paste from this platform.)

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's not about sources or newspapers, we don't need them here, VI. Just watch any video with Gordie Howe in it...I feel like I summed it up pretty well, actually...(as I never intend to mislead anyone voluntarily haha)



He's not Luc Robitaille out there, but his skating isn't anything impressive from technical perspective...strong man, so he can get moving down hill at a good clip (I guess that's the "deceptive" part in the stuff you cite...scouts use that term sometimes to represent that, even though I don't think that's appropriate use), but he doesn't exhibit a good, natural deep knee bend, he doesn't have a great first step, doesn't generate a lot of pop even when he ever attempts to cross-over (which he doesn't do frequently, which is a sign of "meh" skating)...I mean, it's all there for us to see...nothing against the guy, absolute legend, but skating has gotta be his weakest aspect by a pretty considerable margin...

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Easily Howe. Howe was beaten many times in his prime. Howe had several peers. Orr was a much more dominant player. He was peerless when it came to any player especially d men

 

[tony d]

Howe for me. Orr did to much to change the way we look at how defenseman play the game to ever be dethroned as best d man ever.

 

[Killion]

Howe for me. Orr did to much to change the way we look at how defenseman play the game to ever be dethroned as best d man ever.

.... agreed..... be very cool though if someone comes along who does.... and as we as human beings, the game itself develops the probability high that just such a Wunderkind will eventually come along. Often when people discussing these "once in a lifetime" or generational players that transcend even the era's there is a certain propensity to treat them as Sacred Cows, that there were no holes in their games or "but for the wobbly knee's or Howes wrist, concussion"..... Thing is, there were holes in their games, could be exploited, beaten. No ones perfect but to strive for just that, well, therein lies the key to success, to exceptional achievement.

 

[scott clam]

Howe was a physical player who evolved into a finnesse player. He most likely would remain a winger in todays nhl but that doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't be converted to center. It worked out pretty well for Mark Messier in the '80s....

 

[Nick Hansen]

This thread is not about Howe potentially being a good center or not. Kind of sick and tired of certain individuals always derailing every thread on here.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

8 straight Norris trophies is insane. That will never be broken

 

[scott clam]

8 straight Norris trophies is insane. That will never be broken

Yep, just like 20 consecutive top 5 scoring finishes.

 

[Killion]

Howe was a physical player who evolved into a finnesse player. He most likely would remain a winger in todays nhl but that doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't be converted to center. It worked out pretty well for Mark Messier in the '80s....

Really depends on where your coming from Scott. There is logic, critical thought in your assertion however.... we'll never know and that being said I personally err on the side of caution in making such leaps. During his era generally speaking the best players were in fact Centers from often an early age & then converted (Bobby Hull for example) to Wing. In Howes storyline no such fable exists & you have to ask yourself "why not" (?)..... My own interpretation & having studied the guy pretty damn closely is that mentally, he lacked this "finesse" (and vision) of which you speak. He was much more a "Reliable Sargent" than a CO. A Colonel or Major lets say.

A follower. Not a Leader. Now, its entirely possible given the demands put upon players from the elite amateur levels through Jr, NCAA Div 1 & even into Minor Pro that insists upon strict discipline that he would have been converted to a Center or perhaps even a Rushing Defenceman, given even more Rope, but I have my doubts. I think even today he'd have been a Bertuzzi type (absent the hair trigger of course). That then as now his Coaches would recognize his limitations & put him on the Wing, Power Forward. And I mean this most respectfully but...... its been said "hockey (as a skater) is 95% mental". I'm not seeing the "mental" potentialities in Gordie Howe in terms of the actual Magicianship, Leadership, Creativity, ability to think outside of the box. He needed that genius spark to feed & inspire him. He wasnt a "stand alone" despite arguments to the contrary.

I think perhaps your confusing the "finesse of retribution & getting even, making room for oneself on the ice with attitude, elbows, stick, the ethos of intimidation" with playmaking, vision. Howe was a Machine. Mr. Mechanica. You knew what you were getting, dealing with. A Center, you want high Creativity, intellect, vision, adaptability, flexibility. Though in todays game?.... Who the Eff knows uh?....

 

[scott clam]

Really depends on where your coming from Scott. There is logic, critical thought in your assertion however.... we'll never know and that being said I personally err on the side of caution in making such leaps. During his era generally speaking the best players were in fact Centers from often an early age & then converted (Bobby Hull for example) to Wing. In Howes storyline no such fable exists & you have to ask yourself "why not" (?)..... My own interpretation & having studied the guy pretty damn closely is that mentally, he lacked this "finesse" (and vision) of which you speak. He was much more a "Reliable Sargent" than a CO. A Colonel or Major lets say.

A follower. Not a Leader. Now, its entirely possible given the demands put upon players from the elite amateur levels through Jr, NCAA Div 1 & even into Minor Pro that insists upon strict discipline that he would have been converted to a Center or perhaps even a Rushing Defenceman, given even more Rope, but I have my doubts. I think even today he'd have been a Bertuzzi type (absent the hair trigger of course). That then as now his Coaches would recognize his limitations & put him on the Wing, Power Forward. And I mean this most respectfully but...... its been said "hockey (as a skater) is 95% mental". I'm not seeing the "mental" potentialities in Gordie Howe in terms of the actual Magicianship, Leadership, Creativity, ability to think outside of the box. He needed that genius spark to feed & inspire him. He wasnt a "stand alone" despite arguments to the contrary.

I think perhaps your confusing the "finesse of retribution & getting even, making room for oneself on the ice with attitude, elbows, stick, the ethos of intimidation" with playmaking, vision. Howe was a Machine. Mr. Mechanica. You knew what you were getting, dealing with. A Center, you want high Creativity, intellect, vision, adaptability, flexibility. Though in todays game?.... Who the Eff knows uh?....

Well, Gordie Howe finally stopped playing hockey 7 years before I was born and there is limited video footage on youtube with which to analyze, but with that being said it's I think it's pretty apparent that a player doesn't get to rewrite the nhl record book through brute force and intimidation alone. Of course when Howe started out he was more known for hitting and fighting than scoring and stickhandling. And of course he never lost any of the sandpaper, just used it more intelligently. But once he gets a little older, and puts his temper in check he takes on a different role on the team.

Howe broke into a very tough league at a very young age and had to prove himself physically against guys who had just come back from the second world war. It was very rare for 18 year olds to crack the NHL during the O6 era. So I dunno, maybe with the way players are developed nowadays a kid like Howe doesn't have to play overly physical to make a name for himself , but we'll never know.

Also, back to Messier, he was never the playmaker that Howe was, but his overall game and intimidation factor were enough for him to be considered a 2 time league MVP and 1st team allstar at centre. And as brutal and vicious as Messier could be I don't think anyone would say his game lacked "finesse" at that stage of his career. or playmaking "vision"

I agree "finesse" is a very subjective term, and I was using it in the context that Howe started off as a grinding powerforward/enforcer type before elevating himself into the game's premier goal scorer and playmaker-without losing any of that killer instinct. And personally I don't think it's unreasonable to think his assist totals increase at centre from right wing but then again we never know....