Who is the best peak player since 2000?

[KoozNetsOff 92]

29 year old Crosby isn't 24 year old Crosby. And we're not talking about random players on a hot streak to start the year, we're talking about a player who is regularly in the league leaders for points and has led the league in PPG multiple times at, playing an age where a peak season would be expected, and not just producing at a high level, but looking like the player who should be scoring at that level while doing it. The Ovechkin crowd likes to paint the regular season as the ultimate goal and that seasonal totals are the only way to judge players, hence Crosby is always a "what if", reducing a player his numbers above all else. But everyone else has seen enough of Crosby to know what he was capable of

We know what he's capable of and he's had plenty of 70+ game seasons to prove himself. But his 20-30 game hot streaks never last a whole season. Which is why it's ridiculous to assume his 10/11 would have held up, because it never has over a full season. People voting for him are voting for fantasy.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I guess that depends on when you consider his peak, but Crosby was a complete player at a very young age. To suggest otherwise is false. Ovechkin made more highlight reels, sure. But both players dominated in the offensive zone. How are you evaluating who "tilted the ice" more exactly?

CF

 

[Midnight Judges]

Depends on the question. Ovechkin's full seasons are certainly more impressive than Crosby's, and in that sense absolutely.

But if we're asking who was "better" at his best - Crosby absolutely has a case. It's a flip of coin kind of situation - but to claim that Ov was a level above Crosby is silly. Now if you're picking OV hands down based on length of peak, or full seasons vs half seasons - that's fine. But if OP isn't putting that limitation, i think they both merit consideration.

As does Malkin.

You are pretending it is some other poll question in order to answer Crosby.

 

[Varan]

So? It doesn't change the fact that Crosby was that far ahead of his teammates in scoring that year.

it actually would because if 2010/11 was just a "regular" season for Malkin (at the time his PPG was 1.23 before 10/11), he would have had at the very least 48-50 points if we use a safe PPG of 1.18, which is good to assume since this is a "regular" season for him (AT THE TIME). Crosby would not be that far ahead, only about 15 points ahead if malkin had a regular season instead of 30+

it's just a coincidence that the year you are using for Sid to compare to OV's is the year where Malkin also had his worst season.

 

[authentic]

I don't get how Lidstrom has more votes than Sakic and Forsberg, it's pretty commonly accepted that they are better at their peak. Even Thornton has more votes.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Sure there is. Ovi's goal socring trumped Crosby's in their peak, but Sid was a far more complete player while being just as dynamic in the offensive zone in every way but shooting.

Dude.

There is simply no three year stretch where Crosby came anywhere near matching Ovechkin from 2007-2010.

2 rockets, 2 Harts, 3 Pearsons, and an Art Ross, and actually he was quite close to it being 3/3/3/3. Lead the NHL in PPG, GPG, and outscored everyone by substantial margins, was crushing people all over the ice and was like +81 or something.

Even if you take Crosby's best 3 nonconsecutive seasons, it's still not close.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Crosby has no argument because anyone can get hot for ~30 games a season. Crosby himself is a perfect example in 16/17 when after the first 30 games he was on pace for 60+ goals and people (including you I remember) thought he would get it, but he ended up barely hitting 40. Whoever picks a 40 game Crosby and his fantasy 82 game pace over the actual 82 game production OV and/or Malkin put up is just delusional.

The problem with your statement is that it lacks context.

Crosby finished the 2009-2010 regular season in force while recording 21 pts in his last 9 games (2,33 PPG)
Crosby had 65 pts in his first 38 games in 2010-2011 (1,71 PPG)
Crosby had 37 pts in 22 games in 2011-2012 (1,68 PPG)
Crosby had 56 pts in 36 game in 2012-2013 (1,56 PPG)
Crosby had 104 pts in 80 games in 2013-2014 (1,3 PPG)

As you can see, Crosby was on a torrid pace at the end of 09-10 and it simply continued into the 2010-2011 season and after. You can't tell me its all of a coincidence that the guy had crazy hot starts in 3 straight years. He wasn't "hot" during those 38 games at the end of 2010, it was just his normal level of play during those years. He was just that dominant and it really is a shame that he got injured. Had he not suffered these concussions, he would most likely be defined as the consensus 5th best player of all time today.

Its totally debatable which one peaked higher on level of play alone. However, if you take full seasons, it is not.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

it actually would because if 2010/11 was just a "regular" season for Malkin (at the time his PPG was 1.23 before 10/11), he would have had at the very least 48-50 points if we use a safe PPG of 1.18, which is good to assume since this is a "regular" season for him (AT THE TIME). Crosby would not be that far ahead, only about 15 points ahead if malkin had a regular season instead of 30+

it's just a coincidence that the year you are using for Sid to compare to OV's is the year where Malkin also had his worst season.

FYI, Malkin was dealing with injury issues throughout that season..

 

[Varan]

FYI, Malkin was dealing with injuries issues throughout that season..

never knew, thanks for the heads up

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

The problem with your statement is that it lacks context.

Crosby finished the 2009-2010 regular season in force while recording 21 pts in his last 9 games (2,33 PPG)
Crosby had 65 pts in his first 38 games in 2010-2011 (1,71 PPG)
Crosby had 37 pts in 22 games in 2011-2012 (1,68 PPG)
Crosby had 56 pts in 36 game in 2012-2013 (1,56 PPG)
Crosby had 104 pts in 80 games in 2013-2014 (1,3 PPG)

As you can see, Crosby was on a torrid pace at the end of 09-10 and it simply continued into the 2010-2011 season and after. You can't tell me its all of a coincidence that the guy had crazy hot starts in 3 straight years. He wasn't "hot" during those 38 games at the end of 2010, it was just his normal level of play during those years. He was just that dominant and it really is a shame that he got injured. Had he not suffered these concussions, he would most likely be defined as the consensus 5th best player of all time today.

Its totally debatable which one peaked higher on level of play alone. However, if you take full seasons, it is not.

Coming back from off season is different than doing it for a full season. And all I see from those stats is exactly what I said, his PPG drops over the full season but looks great in 20-30 game stretches. We can cherry pick random runs like that for everyone in this poll.

 

[Stud Muffin]

Malkin needs more love here imo.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Coming back from off season is different than doing it for a full season. And all I see from those stats is exactly what I said, his PPG drops over the full season but looks great in 20-30 game stretches. We can cherry pick random runs like that for everyone in this poll.

If anything, coming back from the off-season and having other crazy starts shows you that the first year he did it wasn’t a fluke.

I challenge you to find a player in this group who had 3-4 straight first halfs with a higher PPG (or adjusted PPG) than Sid. You’re pretty off if you think those 3-4 straight season starts were pure luck and conincidence.

 

[Sam Spade]

Sidney (PPG) Crosby is definitely the best half season player in this poll.

 

[Randyne]

If anything, coming back from the off-season and having other crazy starts shows you that the first year he did it wasn’t a fluke.
I challenge you to find a player in this group who had 3-4 straight first halfs with a higher PPG (or adjusted PPG) than Sid. You’re pretty off if you think those 3-4 straight season starts were pure luck and conincidence.

It's a fluke. 1.56-1.71 PPG on first halfs is not sustainable even for Crosby
Sid's first halfs every season:

seasons	PPG (41GP)
2005-2006	1.17
2006-2007	1.66
2007-2008	1.39
2008-2009	1.24
2009-2010	1.17
2010-2011	1.61
2011-2012
2012-2013
2013-2014	1.41
2014-2015	1.24
2015-2016	0.80
2016-2017	1.32
2017-2018	0.88

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Sidney (PPG) Crosby is definitely the best half season player in this poll.

I get that's a joke, but OV has him beat there too lol

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

If anything, coming back from the off-season and having other crazy starts shows you that the first year he did it wasn’t a fluke.

I challenge you to find a player in this group who had 3-4 straight first halfs with a higher PPG (or adjusted PPG) than Sid. You’re pretty off if you think those 3-4 straight season starts were pure luck and conincidence.

Who cares if it was the start or end, it doesn't change the fact that it's never been a full season. There might not be a player in this group who has 3-4 starts like Crosby, but they all have multiple ~20-30 game stretches like that.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

If people are voting for Crosby on the strength of his partial seasons, why not pick Lemieux (76 points in 43 games in 2001, or 63 points in the first 34 games of 2003)?

 

[daver]

it actually would because if 2010/11 was just a "regular" season for Malkin (at the time his PPG was 1.23 before 10/11), he would have had at the very least 48-50 points if we use a safe PPG of 1.18, which is good to assume since this is a "regular" season for him (AT THE TIME). Crosby would not be that far ahead, only about 15 points ahead if malkin had a regular season instead of 30+

it's just a coincidence that the year you are using for Sid to compare to OV's is the year where Malkin also had his worst season.

Again, if pointing out how far ahead a player was from a teammate is significant i.e. OV and Backstrom in 07/08, then your point is irrelevant. Who cares if Malkin wasn't his normal self that year.

 

[authentic]

The problem with your statement is that it lacks context.

Crosby finished the 2009-2010 regular season in force while recording 21 pts in his last 9 games (2,33 PPG)
Crosby had 65 pts in his first 38 games in 2010-2011 (1,71 PPG)
Crosby had 37 pts in 22 games in 2011-2012 (1,68 PPG)
Crosby had 56 pts in 36 game in 2012-2013 (1,56 PPG)
Crosby had 104 pts in 80 games in 2013-2014 (1,3 PPG)

As you can see, Crosby was on a torrid pace at the end of 09-10 and it simply continued into the 2010-2011 season and after. You can't tell me its all of a coincidence that the guy had crazy hot starts in 3 straight years. He wasn't "hot" during those 38 games at the end of 2010, it was just his normal level of play during those years. He was just that dominant and it really is a shame that he got injured. Had he not suffered these concussions, he would most likely be defined as the consensus 5th best player of all time today.

Its totally debatable which one peaked higher on level of play alone. However, if you take full seasons, it is not.

The fact that this all began when he was 22, also how old Ovechkin was in his 65 goal season and usually when superstars enter their prime makes it all the more obvious that this wasn't a hot streak. I love how people point to full seasons after years of concussions and being past his peak as proof he wouldn't put up around 120 or more points in his peak seasons, because I'm sure he would've a few times just like Ovechkin would've in 2010 and maybe Malkin in 2012 if they didn't miss games.

 

[authentic]

To expand it a bit further he had 17 points in his first 8 games in 2013-14 which he means he had 197 points in 116 consecutive regular season games (beating Forsberg's 183 in 115 like I suspected) for a 139 point pace over 82 games. Unfortunately though, David Steckel.

 

[authentic]

If people are voting for Crosby on the strength of his partial seasons, why not pick Lemieux (76 points in 43 games in 2001, or 63 points in the first 34 games of 2003)?

Crosby's streak was a bit better as I've shown above, because 2001-02 happened. But I put Lemieux here for a reason and that would be it.

Lemieux had 170 in 101 = 138 over 82. Assuming we don't give bonus points for him being older and missing 3 years because we're talking about strictly who was better and not which streak was most impressive, Crosby has the definite edge as he was the much better two-way player and didn't play with a linemate that outscored him (or even remotely close it) for nearly half of those games

 

[authentic]

The best consecutive regular season streak Ovechkin had was 189 in 120 games for a 129 point pace over 82, but he also scored 90 goals which is a 62 goal pace compared to Crosby's 47, so you could still make a case for Ovechkin's streak being the best.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

It's a fluke. 1.56-1.71 PPG on first halfs is not sustainable even for Crosby
Sid's first halfs every season:

seasons	PPG (41GP)
2005-2006	1.17
2006-2007	1.66
2007-2008	1.39
2008-2009	1.24
2009-2010	1.17
2010-2011	1.61
2011-2012
2012-2013
2013-2014	1.41
2014-2015	1.24
2015-2016	0.80
2016-2017	1.32
2017-2018	0.88

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The difference is that 2010-2013 was Crosby’s Peak level of play. Obviously he won’t have as great season halves in his other seasons...

 

[Nadal On Clay]

If people are voting for Crosby on the strength of his partial seasons, why not pick Lemieux (76 points in 43 games in 2001, or 63 points in the first 34 games of 2003)?

Teammates tips the scale for Crosby.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Who cares if it was the start or end, it doesn't change the fact that it's never been a full season. There might not be a player in this group who has 3-4 starts like Crosby, but they all have multiple ~20-30 game stretches like that.

It’s wayyy more impressive doing it during the first half than the 2nd half, especially 4 years in a row.

Crosby didnt show ONE sign of slowing down during those years. None.