Who is the 5th best NHL player of all time?

[Up the Irons]

The Rocket.

this. or, you could juxtapose Mario and the Rocket, because I think Richard was probably more impactful than Mario, in terms of the game going forward.

 

[revolverjgw]

Gee, I wonder if any of the Rangers in the early 80s ever came across any Coke?

OO-LA-LA

There's probably 30 year old cocaine residue still stuck in Ron Duguay's chest hair

 

[thom]

The great Ben Johnson holds the true world record in the 100 metres almost 25 yrs ago at 9.74.The greatest sprinter ever so he got caught.The long jump record from the late 1960's as held for decades.Some of you should give yourself a shake in the head.Michael Jordan and Joe Montana were the biggest party people ever some stuff they did would shock you children

 

[GuineaPig]

Your goalie comparison does not hold. Outside of Martin Brodeur not one can play the east-west game properly. Create east-west movement and they start flopping like a fish out of water. Unable to protect the other side or cut-off passes across the crease.

If it's so simple to score on goalies nowadays, it seems that there are 30 NHL teams just not trying.

Your slapshot analogy does not hold either. Today you see slapshots from the point going in that were stopped previously by goalies that knew how to get across the crease from side to side.

Seriously?

 

[Epsilon]

The great Ben Johnson holds the true world record in the 100 metres almost 25 yrs ago at 9.74.The greatest sprinter ever so he got caught.The long jump record from the late 1960's as held for decades.Some of you should give yourself a shake in the head.Michael Jordan and Joe Montana were the biggest party people ever some stuff they did would shock you children

What? Usain Bolt has beat that multiple times.

 

[shazariahl]

Sure, they have hardly evolved genetically, but the top athletes of today are incomparably greater and better trained than those in the past. You used the example of Howe, who started his career in the mid-40s, as someone who had great longevity. To view the difference between the athletes currently and those 50+ years ago, we can look at 100m dash times, as a runner's performance in track does not depend on his competition like in hockey and their performances are easily quantifiable. Up until 1956 the world record was 10.2 seconds. In the present, that would only be good enough to be invited to the US trials while the world record has dropped substantially to 9.58s. I'm sorry if the facts don't fit your preconceived narrative that the legends of the past would still dominate today, but it is indisputable that both the average and the elite athletes of today are superior to their counterparts of the past.

But the facts are that many NHL stars of the 80's and 90's were still great in the 2000's, so how does that track with your idea that the sport has evolved so greatly? Maybe the fact that 50 years of better training and nutrition has only takes 1/2 a second off the world record time indicates that training and nutrition matter, but not as much as people would have us believe? Maybe track stars from the 30's and 40's with today's training and conditioning programs would be able to adapt and still compete, the way players from the 80's and 90's have been able to in hockey too. It's the just gap is so many decades, we don't have athletes who have overlapping careers from the 40's until today. If a 46 yr old Chelios can still make an NHL lineup, it seems unlikely that a 26 yr old Chelios wouldn't be able to do so given time to adapt to superior training and nutrition programs.

 

[thom]

My point was Ben held the record for 20 yrs plus and you people argue that athletes are so superior.The truth is there not its just the drugs they do are superior from generation to generation.The great Armstrong was every ones role model but he got caught and now he's a cheat.Bonds Sosa Mcguire were the best 20 yrs ago there records still stand why in real people's mind.Records are broken because one know's how to cheat and other's don't

 

[Bear of Bad News]

My point was Ben held the record for 20 yrs plus and you people argue that athletes are so superior.The truth is there not its just the drugs they do are superior from generation to generation.The great Armstrong was every ones role model but he got caught and now he's a cheat.Bonds Sosa Mcguire were the best 20 yrs ago there records still stand why in real people's mind.Records are broken because one know's how to cheat and other's don't

And *my* point was - let's take this out of the "5th best NHL player" thread.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If you want to talk about the increased speed of sprinters and how it means players of today are better, or argue against that point, use this thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=849771

This is NOT optional.

_____________

Since asking nicely didn't seem to do anything, I'll have to try this another way.

ANYONE WHO CONTINUES TO USE THIS THREAD AS A FORUM TO DISCUSS WHETHER PLAYERS OF TODAY OR PLAYERS OF YESTERDAY ARE BETTER WILL BE GIVEN AN INFRACTION FOR "THREAD HIJACKING" AND BANNED FROM THIS THREAD. CONSIDER THIS YOUR FINAL WARNING. There is already an appropriate thread to do that in.

This thread is about the 5th best NHL player of all time. If your post isn't about the 5th best NHL player of all time, have some consideration for other posters who actually want to discuss the topic.

 

[Hardyvan123]

So what are you implying thom? The Oilers Trainers included lines of blow yards long for pre-game & in-between period refreshment next to the orange slices, Gatorade & water bottles? Help yourself Boys, whatever turns your crank?....

1986 SI published a story denied vociferously by Sather that not only did Grant Fuhr have a problem with Coke, but so too did 5 other un-named Oilers. Apparently Sather contacted the reporter, was interviewed, Gretzky as well, both utterly refuting the accusations, that they'd be aware of it if indeed any team mate had a problem of that nature. Sather never asked the reporter who the other 5 players were, and had he, as I recall the reporter said he wouldnt tell him anyway. As we know, Fuhr's "problem" became such that he could no longer deny it. And it was beyond bad. Mortgage payments & utility bills missed so Id imagine he was dropping a bundle in deviating his septum but good for quite some length of time.

Thing is, cocaine combined with serious physical exertion would actually be a handicap, as theres just no way it could be sustained, couldnt handle it, central nervous system shot to Hell in no time flat, after effects including deep depression, violent mood swings, difficulties focusing, physiological damage, vision a mess, all of the senses screwed. Sure its probable that like Salming with the Leafs a generation earlier a few may have experimented with it, but I dont believe any of them beyond Fuhr developed a dependency on it. Your game (and life) would absolutely fall apart if you wandered down that road too far. Just ask Derek Sanderson about that one. Any kind of substance abuse, even nicotine, inhibiting & detrimental to performance.

Oh how I long for the day when the term "upper body injury" is replaced by more accurate description like this one.

How would One describe Sami Salo's delicate injury I wonder?

 

[Gardner McKay]

Bobby Hull. Counting his WHA career he scored more than 900 goals implying that he had a chance to be the first in scoring.

He can also be cosidered as best of all time.

PS Didn't see luch of Orr tapes compared to, say, Hull but something tells me he is a bit overhyped. It is American culture to love one single moment not the whole career.

Couldn't agree with this more (as far as hull is concerned). Couldn't disagree more with respect to Orr.

 

[1967th Heaven]

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe

5 is probably the Rocket and then 6 would be Doug Harvey He won the Norris 7 times in a row and was a first team all star 10 years in a row. He changed the position forever (or so I here, I wasn't really alive to see him play

If you wanted to throw a goalie in there I think you'd have to go with Terry Sawchuk.

 

[datbwoymjp]

Steve Yzerman. Or Joe Sakic. Have your pick.

 

[Czech Your Math]

No easy answer.

Hasek, Roy, ?
Harvey, Bourque, Lidstrom, ?
Richard, Beliveau, Hull, Jagr, ?

 

[King Forsberg]

Steve Yzerman. Or Joe Sakic. Have your pick.

How bout neither?

 

[datbwoymjp]

How bout neither?

At their peak they were way better than Messier.

 

[King Forsberg]

At their peak they were way better than Messier.

Perhaps but Messier is far from a top 5 player of all time.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Perhaps but Messier is far from a top 5 player of all time.

I agree with that, but I think Messier probably has a better argument, in the sense that he had a more "unique
" career. Still, when you're primary argument(s) hinge on all-around play and team/playoff success, then it seems a real uphill battle against someone like Beliveau (or Richard, strictly in terms of playoffs).

 

[King Forsberg]

I agree with that, but I think Messier probably has a better argument, in the sense that he had a more "unique
" career. Still, when you're primary argument(s) hinge on all-around play and team/playoff success, then it seems a real uphill battle against someone like Beliveau (or Richard, strictly in terms of playoffs).

Messier certainly has a fantastic argument to be above Sakic and Yzerman. But as you said, I don't think he would fare well when comparing him to Richard, Beliveau or Jagr. His intangibles can only make up so much ground before he ventures into the overrated category.

 

[livewell68]

Steve Yzerman. Or Joe Sakic. Have your pick.

Except neither was better than Jagr.

 

[livewell68]

in terms of skill?

Forsberg

In terms of skill Forsberg isn't even among the top 5 of his own era let alone all-time.

Lemieux, Jagr, Karyia, Fedorov and Bure were all more skilled than Forsberg was.

 

[Laphroaig]

Sidney Crosby is the fifth best player I've ever watched but if we're looking for a larger sample size I have to go with Beliveau. Doug Harvey would probably be a decent choice as well but I never saw him in his prime. I remember him best as a fat 44 year old alcoholic in need of a paycheque when he played for the blues in 68-69. Even then he racked up over 20 points.

 

[pdd]

I agree with that, but I think Messier probably has a better argument, in the sense that he had a more "unique
" career. Still, when you're primary argument(s) hinge on all-around play and team/playoff success, then it seems a real uphill battle against someone like Beliveau (or Richard, strictly in terms of playoffs).

Yzerman had a pretty unique career in that he started off as an offensive dynamo who would reach a level in 88-89 that only Gretzky and Lemieux would reach before or after to date, and he was able to play a defensive game and ultimately transition into being a high-end defensive forward who finished top-ten in scoring and was named to the first all-star team. He also holds the NHL record for length of tenure as captain, and his leadership is one of the defining things about his career. As opposed to the "pirate captain" Messier, who boarded your ship and stole your crew.

Yzerman also didn't have the advantage of playing with one of the four best players ever when he was wining Stanley Cups, and Messier didn't play on a bad team until his late 30s.

While it's true that Messier is not near 5th all-time... Yzerman is also well ahead of Messier. Yzerman is, IMHO, closer to 5th than to Messier.

 

[King Forsberg]

In terms of skill Forsberg isn't even among the top 5 of his own era let alone all-time.

Lemieux, Jagr, Karyia, Fedorov and Bure were all more skilled than Forsberg was.

Jagr and Lemieux I'll agree with no doubt but the other three are really debatable.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Jagr and Lemieux I'll agree with no doubt but the other three are really debatable.

I guess it would depend on what skills one is talking about. I would say the most consistently effective players when healthy were Lemieux, Jagr, Lindros, and Forsberg.