Who is the #2 goalie?

[beowulf]

Nothing will be decided for sure until the preseason. Who knows how Tokarski will arrive in camp, in the end I think the team might end up carrying 3 goalies for a while.

 

[LastWordArmy]

yeah lets compare a first ballot hofer to a guy two sips into his nhl cup of coffee. see how that works ?

and the likelihood that we can grow him into a starter requires some pretty bad stuff to happen to price and or fucale. he's not going to be a starter in montreal, there is no 1B position open, not now not likely when price is still around. Right now tokarski the guy that they get to sit in the stars empty seat at the oscars and all of this is based on one run in the playoffs where the best that could be said for him was that he was better than we had expected.

Never did I say we could grow him into a starter.

I said a team that needs a cheap backup, and a goaltending prospect could take a flyer on him because he is free via waivers. I don't see how that says he's going to be a starter in Montreal.

steve penny had a much nicer pedigree only to flame out, and there are tons of goalies in the same boat. id love to be able to say that tokarski is the anti-penny but for this to carry any weight he's going to need starts to prove he's not just the next in a long line of flash in the pan goalies and those starts, in montreal, are not forthcoming.

There are a lot of ufa goalies right now who are WAY more developed, provided they are willing to play a solid 2, but most of them, including fatso, still want to challenge for the number one spot. when has anyone ever gotten the idea that budaj isnt happy being a solid 2 and nothing more ?

Yeah he's no guarantee.

But he costs NOTHING via waivers, and his cap hit is Miniscule.

No one is trading the farm to get him, but as a guy to take a gamble on, he's literally no risk/high reward. Say he flames out on his new team, he has a two way contract so even if he's now seen around the NHL as a bust after playing badly on a new club, they could just waive him and send him to the minors.

Thats the thing... for a team with no goalie prospect, there is literally NO DOWNSIDE to claiming him on waivers, and thats why he won't clear 29 NHL teams

 

[macavoy]

But he costs NOTHING via waivers, and his cap hit is Miniscule.

No one is trading the farm to get him, but as a guy to take a gamble on, he's literally no risk/high reward. Say he flames out on his new team, he has a two way contract so even if he's now seen around the NHL as a bust after playing badly on a new club, they could just waive him and send him to the minors.

Thats the thing... for a team with no goalie prospect, there is literally NO DOWNSIDE to claiming him on waivers, and thats why he won't clear 29 NHL teams

You've been asked multiple times in this thread for teams that would claim him and you can't even list 3 teams who might be interested.

He doesn't even have 20 games, there is no interest in him.

 

[bsl]

After one playoff series? Unproven goalies are by far and away the mist overvalued asset on these boards. I think there is a fair chance he does not get claimed and if we ship away Budaj, how is tokarskis stock going to increase playing a dozen or so games behind our real #1, and ahead of fucale?

Budaj is a good regular season goalie, liked in the room and gas zero expectations that the 1B spot might appear. The only question is whether he's good to be the complete bridge to fucale which won't be for a while.

Good post, but I think everyone is missing the point. Habs are increasingly contending, and if you are a contender you need a backup that can save your ass in PO if Price goes down.

It's not about regular season, it's now about playoffs. Need to adjust our minds.

Given that, I like Toker over Budaj. Budaj seems to crumble under pressure, where Toker came into the ECF FFS and was very good. Not good enough, but very good.

The guy was pushed into an impossible situation, and was pretty calm about it. That is very impressive.

I go with Toker. I also give him 20 games regular season to keep Price rested and ready for PO. He has this knee thing. It has to be rested.

If Toker can handle the ECF, he can handle 20 reg season games vs teams like the Panthers for god's sake.

Budaj may be well liked, but the guys in the room know that they are now a PO team. They want a backup that can come in and perform decently under massive pressure.

Budaj can get a 6th, but wait until teams have injuries to goalies in camp. Then he might get a fourth round pick. Or better.

In summary: Keep the Toker and give him 20 games, rest Price for the PO. Trade Budaj as late as possible to a desperate club.

 

[Kojo]

Unproven goalies are by far and away the most overvalued asset on these boards.

How can you blame us? I remember an unproven goaltender who won us two cups.

 

[Patty Roy]

We have $2.6m in cap space that we can't even spend, we don't need $900k more.


You don't realize the difference being a stater is compared to riding the pine and playing at the NHL level when you haven't played in 2 weeks. Being a backup is very different than being a starter. It would be a mistake to let Budaj go when Tokarski hasn't proven he can be a back up.

We have $2.6 in cap space but bonuses that could add up to as much as $3.6 and bite us for next year. I think you want as much cap flexibility as you can get, especially if we are a playoff team as expected and want to add at the deadline.

You make a fair point about Budaj possibly being a better option with spot duty....i'm also not convinced that Tokarski is necessarily a better back up....but when you factor in the intagibles (age, salary) i think the smart move is to stick with Tokarski as your #2 and either trade or waive Budaj.

 

[sandysan]

Good post, but I think everyone is missing the point. Habs are increasingly contending, and if you are a contender you need a backup that can save your ass in PO if Price goes down.

It's not about regular season, it's now about playoffs. Need to adjust our minds.

Given that, I like Toker over Budaj. Budaj seems to crumble under pressure, where Toker came into the ECF FFS and was very good. Not good enough, but very good.

The guy was pushed into an impossible situation, and was pretty calm about it. That is very impressive.

I go with Toker. I also give him 20 games regular season to keep Price rested and ready for PO. He has this knee thing. It has to be rested.

If Toker can handle the ECF, he can handle 20 reg season games vs teams like the Panthers for god's sake.

Budaj may be well liked, but the guys in the room know that they are now a PO team. They want a backup that can come in and perform decently under massive pressure.

Budaj can get a 6th, but wait until teams have injuries to goalies in camp. Then he might get a fourth round pick. Or better.

In summary: Keep the Toker and give him 20 games, rest Price for the PO. Trade Budaj as late as possible to a desperate club.

so your argument is, if i understand it correctly, is that you sign a 1B but only play him 15 games in the regular season in hopes that price gets kreidered again that we pull the mask off this guy like a mexican luchadore to reveal thats its the spawn of kenny dryden and patrick roy concocted in a secret lab on the mcgill campus?

and the reason tokarski had no pressure was because he cane out of left field and even the montreal fans wont put expectations on a completely green unproven goalie.

And the list of flash in the pan goalies is extensive, tokarski is still very much unproven. Does he have a higher ceiling ? perhaps but I know what we get with budaj who has shown hes a great no complaining number 2 who will play the games hes expected to.

What are the chances tokarski gets exposed as the next justin pogge? what are the chances budaj does? we dont need a second string to be world class, just hold the fort. Budaj has proven he can do this, tokarski has not.

if we ship budaj and play tokarski in the toughest market for goaltenders and it goes south, what do we do? sign a ufa vet who wants at least a 1B, or rush fucale?

there is a reason a second string goalie does not have to be all world, if they were they would not be 2nd string. You need a guy ( to quote from dwayne johnson) who "knows his role", keeps his mouth shut and plays within expectations for the games he gets. Anything more is gravy.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Budaj gave us a couple great years as a back-up, but any chance of an extended playoff run for us relies on Price so we'll need to limit his games to around 60-65 at the most to keep him fresh.

Budaj struggled mightily after the Olympics when his workload was increased due to the Price injury. Should Price get hurt again Tokarski would give us the best chance to stay competitive during a long stretch, something Budaj couldn't/can't do.

Worst case if Tokarski struggles as a back-up MacDonald has shown the last few years he's a respectable back-up when playing around 15 games, his numbers with Calgary dropped but that is because they had a terrible team.

Give Price 60 games and Tokarski the remaining 22, even in the AHL he's only been playing around 40 games a year so I think he'll be fine in the NHL with a limited role.

 

[sandysan]

Budaj gave us a couple great years as a back-up, but any chance of an extended playoff run for us relies on Price so we'll need to limit his games to around 60-65 at the most to keep him fresh.

Budaj struggled mightily after the Olympics when his workload was increased due to the Price injury. Should Price get hurt again Tokarski would give us the best chance to stay competitive during a long stretch, something Budaj couldn't/can't do.

Worst case if Tokarski struggles as a back-up MacDonald has shown the last few years he's a respectable back-up when playing around 15 games, his numbers with Calgary dropped but that is because they had a terrible team.

Give Price 60 games and Tokarski the remaining 22, even in the AHL he's only been playing around 40 games a year so I think he'll be fine in the NHL with a limited role.

I don't want to harp but how do you know that tokarski can provide anything in the regular season that Budaj can't?

He's a complete unknown aside from the playoff run. He might be great and he might fold under the reasonable ( or more correctly unreasonable) expectations for goalies in mtl.

It seems that some want to jettison Budaj on the outside chance that if we don't protect tokarski it might come back to bite us in the keister. If it does, it does. The alternative is that we develop a guy and then intentionally bury him with no chance of ever having a chance to play other than a short term place holder between price and fucale.

If he can get a real kick at the cat somewhere else and we are sure he's not in our longterm plans, I'd hope we would do the stand up thing and cut him loose.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

I don't want to harp but how do you know that tokarski can provide anything in the regular season that Budaj can't?

He's a complete unknown aside from the playoff run. He might be great and he might fold under the reasonable ( or more correctly unreasonable) expectations for goalies in mtl.

It seems that some want to jettison Budaj on the outside chance that if we don't protect tokarski it might come back to bite us in the keister. If it does, it does. The alternative is that we develop a guy and then intentionally bury him with no chance of ever having a chance to play other than a short term place holder between price and fucale.

If he can get a real kick at the cat somewhere else and we are sure he's not in our longterm plans, I'd hope we would do the stand up thing and cut him loose.

There is no guarantee Tokarski has a great regular season next year, but there is also the risk we see the ****** Budaj we saw from the second half of last year and not the one we saw from before the Olympic break.

Tokarski came into the Eastern Conference finals after not playing for nearly a month and gave the team a chance to win every game. He also looked very good in his 3 starts last year when he got called up and has been very solid in the AHL the last couples seasons. Based on that I'd take the risk and go with the guy with the higher upside, if Tokarski sucks next year there are always goalies available for cheap in trades or maybe someone like Vokoun or Bryzgalov is still available to sign during the year.

If Budaj was a lock to give us 20-25 solid games next year it'd make the decision harder, but the way he finished the season doesn't give me much confidence in going with him over a guy with some potential like Tokarski.

 

[Binary Code]

Bye Budaj

 

[LastWordArmy]

You've been asked multiple times in this thread for teams that would claim him and you can't even list 3 teams who might be interested.

He doesn't even have 20 games, there is no interest in him.

Check the history I listed a bunch, (at least 6)

 

[LastWordArmy]

Budaj's cap hit is $1.4 million. In the new CBA you save a max of ~900K (goes up as the nhl min salary increases, i think its NHL min salary +350K) but anything above that amount counts on the cap. For Budaj thats approximately 500K




The tiny cap hit (562K) could save teams a lot of money., Consider new Jersey who has clemmenson on a 2-way contract they could wipe off the books by grabbing tokarski (plus they'd have a young goalie they are developping). Any team in this situation could do it.

Other teams.

Columbus - Tokarski is younger and an upgrade on McElhinney as a backup.

Arizona - Dubnyk is their backup. We already know Tokarski outplayed him last season.

Minnesota - feel bad for the kid but Harding missed half the season last year with his medication issues, its unclear if those are solved and he'll be ready for the season. Kuemper is unsigned and had concussion issues. Backstrom has his own injury issues.

Winnipeg's backup Michael Hutchinson has 3 NHL games of experience and a 2-way contract.

Dallas - Anders Lindback.... I'd take Tokarski over that.

Philly - He's better than Emery (and money savings of 300K, even after sending Emery to the minors) for a cap team.

For Macavoy who apparently missed this post.

 

[macavoy]

For Macavoy who apparently missed this post.

Thanks for the quote, I missed it.

I think your massively over rating Tokarski. I bet if you went to those other forums, they aren't clamouring to claim Tokarski.


I'm just glad MT gives his vets long leishes and rookies are brought along slowly. I think people are also over rating how "badly" Budaj played down the stretch.

 

[OldCraig71]

Must have been tough for Budaj to sit and watch an unknown rookie get the starts. I doubt theres much demand for him though, at best he can become trade bait once another team has a goalie injury. His days are numbered.

 

[LastWordArmy]

Thanks for the quote, I missed it.

I think your massively over rating Tokarski. I bet if you went to those other forums, they aren't clamouring to claim Tokarski.


I'm just glad MT gives his vets long leishes and rookies are brought along slowly. I think people are also over rating how "badly" Budaj played down the stretch.

I'm the first to say that Tokarski has very limited, and possibly zero trade value. I don't believe that we'd get more than a late round pick (if that) for him.

I just think you are underrating waivers, and how little of a risk claiming a guy with an uber-low cap hit and two way contract like Tokarski would be for a team. Thats the biggest point I'm making here, claiming Tokarski on waivers is literally zero risk for the team claiming him. Its a free goalie prospect and one who has played well in limited action.

 

[le_sean]

The only reason to get rid of Budaj is to get cap room for help elsewhere. Otherwise, keep him and have two good backups.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I'm the first to say that Tokarski has very limited, and possibly zero trade value. I don't believe that we'd get more than a late round pick (if that) for him.

I just think you are underrating waivers, and how little of a risk claiming a guy with an uber-low cap hit and two way contract like Tokarski would be for a team. Thats the biggest point I'm making here, claiming Tokarski on waivers is literally zero risk for the team claiming him. Its a free goalie prospect and one who has played well in limited action.

100% agree.

I'd be surprised if Tokarski cleared waivers. One team with a crappy backup and cap room is bound to want to take a chance on him. Especially since he has a 2-way contract and can just be sent down to the AHL if it doesn't work out. It's as if someone gave you 20$ to put on red 21 at the casino.

 

[macavoy]

I'm the first to say that Tokarski has very limited, and possibly zero trade value. I don't believe that we'd get more than a late round pick (if that) for him.

I just think you are underrating waivers, and how little of a risk claiming a guy with an uber-low cap hit and two way contract like Tokarski would be for a team. Thats the biggest point I'm making here, claiming Tokarski on waivers is literally zero risk for the team claiming him. Its a free goalie prospect and one who has played well in limited action.

You obviously don't understand locker room dynamics. When you build a team, you don't throw away a member of the family to save 2 cents. When teams bond, they are all a unit, they go to war for each other, if you send the message that, this team ,100% is about Carey Price but we will toss out his back up the second he is hurt, well why should Price go to war if you don't respect him enough to respect his back up.

I grew up a goalie and having a 1a 1b situation is hell. I remember the year I was on a ****** team, I was the clear cut #1 but I broke my wrist, so we brought up a house league goalie but he played well enough to make me work for my job. That was the biggest slap in the face.

But I did it. There was one year where I was in a 1a vs 1b situation and it sucked. Unlessnyouce been a goalie, you don't understand the mental aspects of the game.

This is Price's team, if you want to **** it up by trading Budaj for a 7th rounder so a guy with 10 Gamez experience can try steal your $7m goalies job, then go ahead. That's not a team I want to be part of.

 

[Frankenheimer]

Despite what happened during playoffs, budaj and price have great chemistry, which is a consideration. Tokarski is an unproven commodity as back up and doesn't fit long term.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

You obviously don't understand locker room dynamics. When you build a team, you don't throw away a member of the family to save 2 cents. When teams bond, they are all a unit, they go to war for each other, if you send the message that, this team ,100% is about Carey Price but we will toss out his back up the second he is hurt, well why should Price go to war if you don't respect him enough to respect his back up.

I grew up a goalie and having a 1a 1b situation is hell. I remember the year I was on a ****** team, I was the clear cut #1 but I broke my wrist, so we brought up a house league goalie but he played well enough to make me work for my job. That was the biggest slap in the face.

But I did it. There was one year where I was in a 1a vs 1b situation and it sucked. Unlessnyouce been a goalie, you don't understand the mental aspects of the game.

This is Price's team, if you want to **** it up by trading Budaj for a 7th rounder so a guy with 10 Gamez experience can try steal your $7m goalies job, then go ahead. That's not a team I want to be part of.

Don't throw away a member of the family? Like how we threw away Gorges and White this summer ? And.. countless others.. like any other pro NHL team has done since the NHL started ? Besides, I wouldn't call it throwing away a member of the family so much as going into a different direction.

Disrespecting Price's back up of 2 seasons would be akin to disrespecting Price and might lead to him not "going to war" for the habs ? These guys are pro NHLers, they're not some 11 year old atom player... the psychological dynamics might be slightly different here... maybe.

Besides, what do you think happened last playoffs ? MT went to see Budaj's teammates and asked them who they felt comfortable with, Budaj or Tokarski ? So looks like the members of the family didn't really care that much for your idea of locker room dynamics.

More importantly, Tokarski wouldn't be brought in to "steal" Price's job. No one would expect him to. Least of all Price.

 

[habitue*]

I would not like the habs to lose Tokarski on waivers for sweet nothing.

Trade him, or keep him in Montreal.

 

[sandysan]

I would not like the habs to lose Tokarski on waivers for sweet nothing.

Trade him, or keep him in Montreal.

What do you think the market value is for a career ahl goalie with less than 20 games in the NHL? we might get a 7th whose chance of actually helping the team is, generously, remote.

having a never will be prospect ( or hoping for that one in a thousand diamond in the rough) is not much different than exposing the player to the waiver wire.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

What do you think the market value is for a career ahl goalie with less than 20 games in the NHL? we might get a 7th whose chance of actually helping the team is, generously, remote.

having a never will be prospect ( or hoping for that one in a thousand diamond in the rough) is not much different than exposing the player to the waiver wire.

Going forward, I'd much rather have Tokarski at 500K than Budaj at 1.4M. Tokarski made a name for himself in these eastern conference finals. People took notice. He might not have much value right now, but he will have more value going forward than Budaj ever will. He's also cheaper, and can actually replace Price if he gets injured contrarily to Budaj.

Only 2 variables of concern are if he'll be a good teammate and if he'll be able to handle playing 1 game every 2-3 weeks or so.

 

[sandysan]

Going forward, I'd much rather have Tokarski at 500K than Budaj at 1.4M. Tokarski made a name for himself in these eastern conference finals. People took notice. He might not have much value right now, but he will have more value going forward than Budaj ever will. He's also cheaper, and can actually replace Price if he gets injured contrarily to Budaj.

Only 2 variables of concern are if he'll be a good teammate and if he'll be able to handle playing 1 game every 2-3 weeks or so.

So an unproven goalie improves his stock by remaining unproven by playing 15 games a year, max?

Budaj might not have 1B value but he is valuable to the habs, we know what we get with him as a 2, we have no idea with tokarski. The sad truth is that barring injury he never going to get a chance to carry the load.

and the savings to me are meh. The idea that dustin tokarki is a reasonable replacement for carey price is only marginally less optimistic than saying Im a reasonable replacement for price.

And of those two variables, how many are a demonstrated concern for budaj? none thats how many.