Who is our worst defenseman?

[Will Hunting]

It´s between Maatta and Oleksiak IMO. But gotta go with Maatta. Having Oleksiak as a 6th dman in a sheltered specific role, I can live with that. Having Maatta on the ice and taking 4M+ for that looks worse to me.

 

[ColePens]

Honestly this question has more depth to it then we are looking at. The question isn't just who is the worst dman, it's who is the worst fit + who has the highest responsibility/expectations. That is why this is hands down Olli Maatta. From Maatta's first camp to today, it is near impossible to believe that is the same guy. Cancer, mumps, multiple injuries, and other things play into this, but it is ridiculous that he makes 4m and is expected to play top 4 minutes while looking like he does. So breaking this down we have:

1) Maatta: 4.1m for a guy who doesn't fit makes him top this list. I don't think he's the worst defender of the group because I do think there are 5-10 teams he'd be a stellar top 4 dman on, but they have to play a much slower system. So he's the worst for the Pens, but not even close to the worst player out of this group.

2) JJ: That contract is ridiculous and he's a 6th dman who can give solid PK minutes and maaaaaybe play well when the whistles are put away in the postseason. He's nowhere near as good as Ian Cole was. He can't pass or keep pucks in. His shot never gets through. His offensive ability is that of Craig Adams. His defense is like Hal Gill. If he was 2 years @ 1.5-2m, i wouldn't even include him on this list. FIVE years at 3.25 is absurd.

3) Oleksiak: As @EightyOne put it, Oleksiak is the 4th line wing in all of this. He's a meh #6 making about 600k too much. I think his defensive skills are the worst of anyone on the team. For a guy his size, he's utterly useless from the red line to our d-zone. They should probably just try the guy at 4th line LW at some point. I've never seen a dman more useless from the red line to our d-zone and actually good from the red line to the opposition's goal line like Big O.

In terms of just talking about skill, Oleksiak is our worst dman by a country mile. I've never seen a weaker dman in my life and that comes with seeing an older Mark Eaton and Matt Hunwick.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Maatta just because we expect much more from him being a 1st rounder
Seems to be regressing year after year and has a hard time with the pace of the game

 

[Empoleon8771]

It depends on what you mean. Who has been the worst this year? Maatta. Who will most likely yield the worst results? Johnson. Who is the least talented? Oleksiak. How you answer this question depends on how you define "worst".

 

[Peat]

Maatta just because we expect much more from him being a 1st rounder
Seems to be regressing year after year and has a hard time with the pace of the game

Am I the only person who thought Maatta had a strong season last year and his strongest since Sully got here? I see a lot of talk about ongoing regression, but last season I saw a decided uptick...

 

[JackFr]

Am I the only person who thought Maatta had a strong season last year and his strongest since Sully got here? I see a lot of talk about ongoing regression, but last season I saw a decided uptick...

he slow. maatta slow so he bad.

The answer to this question is absolutely Johnson.

 

[ColePens]

Am I the only person who thought Maatta had a strong season last year and his strongest since Sully got here? I see a lot of talk about ongoing regression, but last season I saw a decided uptick...

Jesse Marshall, I believe, had a positive write up on Olli last year. It was based all on advanced stats. And IMO - the advanced stats told a damn lie.

 

[Will Hunting]

It depends on what you mean. Who has been the worst this year? Maatta. Who will most likely yield the worst results? Johnson. Who is the least talented? Oleksiak. How you answer this question depends on how you define "worst".

Yep, it would be so much different discussion if all of these dmen were playing small roles and taking 1M for those. But you naturally MUST take into account their salaries, expectations, roles etc.. Sooo, all things considered, Olli Maatta is the biggest problem and biggest disappointment there, easily. Even if in the vacuum he is probably better hockey player than Jamie Oleksiak.

 

[Beauner]

JJ, Maatta and Oleksiak are all bad in their own unique ways. I guess it depends on what weeknesses you feel are more impactful overall.

 

[Beauner]

Jesse Marshall, I believe, had a positive write up on Olli last year. It was based all on advanced stats. And IMO - the advanced stats told a damn lie.

The last few years he was damn solid, we shouldn't forget that. Yeah he's always had footspeed issues but his first passes were phenomenal. I had called him the best passer on the team at one point. He rarely turned the puck over and did a great job at making short, effective outlets to break the puck out.

This year, I have no idea what happened. Maybe it's confidence issues? Perhaps he's being coached differently? But he's just not the same player he was during those 2 cup runs.

 

[DegenX]

Way to tank their value @Honour Over Glory. Now no one on the trade board will want them
I went with Maatta. His hockey IQ doesn't makes up for his lack of speed. Maybe it has something to do with his medication, IDK. He's just not a fit for the team.

 

[Gurglesons]

Jesse Marshall, I believe, had a positive write up on Olli last year. It was based all on advanced stats. And IMO - the advanced stats told a damn lie.

You think Olli was bad last year? I thought it was his best year since 2013.

Which adds even more crushing disappointment to his season this year.

 

[Peat]

Jesse Marshall, I believe, had a positive write up on Olli last year. It was based all on advanced stats. And IMO - the advanced stats told a damn lie.

Soooooo...

... while looking at Jesse's twitter, trying to work out what article it was (not that it'd matter, I has no Athletic sub, but it does say based on video in the opening paragraph ) I found this beauty.



For anyone squinting at it, you're looking for second from top.

Now, that, that is advanced stats telling stories that seem to challenge the accepted resources of the English language to convey verified information in a way that goes beyond its capabilities and casts doubt on the integrity of the speaker...



... but the advanced stats last year? I'm intrigued as to why you think so. Because I saw a guy last year who moved the puck quickly and accurately, and I see a big difference to this year, where he's been hesitant - except when with Riikola.

 

[Turin]

Jesse Marshall, I believe, had a positive write up on Olli last year. It was based all on advanced stats. And IMO - the advanced stats told a damn lie.

Not being scored on isn’t an advanced stat.

 

[Turin]

Go and watch the 2017 playoff series highlights vs Columbus. Or any Pens vs Columbus game. Johnson is on the ice for like every goal, out of position or simply chasing a guy around the net. It’s like every damn goal man.

It’s not a coincidence he gets scored on all the time every year.

 

[Andy99]

Shocked at the number of people picking Maatta...yes, he’s slow, not a great fit but analytics do say something, even if they’re not the end all, and he’s a way better shot suppressor and shot generator than either JJ or Olek....so despite his limitations he helps the team more than those two...I don’t think contract should have anything to do with play on the ice, which is how I read “worst”....so the worst defender has to be between JJ and Olek...JJ imo has some uses for this team and has looked better with MP, so I’m pretty convinced it’s Olek, who tries and fails to be Burns on a regular basis (maybe Mr. Burns from The Simpsons)....

 

[Gurglesons]

Go and watch the 2017 playoff series highlights vs Columbus. Or any Pens vs Columbus game. Johnson is on the ice for like every goal, out of position or simply chasing a guy around the net. It’s like every damn goal man.

It’s not a coincidence he gets scored on all the time every year.

Yeah. But, he is PPG in the playoffs somehow.

 

[ziggyjoe212]

I sometimes feel like people on these boards only say stuff to agree with other people on here and don't have a clue about anything they type.

Maatta is always rock in the playoffs, and has been a solid top 4 Dmen for us for years. Just because he struggled for a few games this year he's bad all of the sudden? Or just because he can't skate as well as Letang he sucks, as if speed is the only skill for a hockey player?
Murray has been awful for over a year now, yet people still give him the benefit of a doubt. Maatta has been reliable for 6 years yet some think he sucks because of a few bad games. Makes sense to me.
He's a legit #3-4 Dman on a good playoff team.

JJ seems to have settled into a defensive role. He plays well when he's not expected to do too much. Adequate #4-5 guy.

I don't particularly think any of our Dmen are bad, certainly not to the level of Scuderi. When everyone is healthy, I honestly don't think there is any difference between Oleksiak, Pettersson. or Riikola. They're all suitable to play bottom pairing without hurting the team.

 

[ColePens]

I love ya @ziggyjoe212 but you lost me at "Maatta is always rock in the playoffs" because that's exactly what he is not. In the 2017 run, he was probably our worst dman and we had a Letang-less defense. He was abused in the Ottawa series.

Absolutely not. While you feel sometimes people on boards say stuff to agree with others, people who say Maatta has been a rock in the playoffs are turning a blind eye.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don’t think it matters who we consider the worst of the three.

What matters is which one has the most value in a trade and I can’t imagine why the answer wouldn’t be Maatta.

What his value is I’m not sure, but it’s probably higher than we think.

The next question is, will they ever be willing to move him, because he’s quite highly thought of by the coaches and brass... and before you think WTH, remember they love ZAR also.

So, many of us may not like Maatta, but that’s not how he’s perceived by the org... and I suspect there are other org that would covet him.

 

[Doogle]

I voted Maata but I might be leaning more towards Oleksiak. You'd think a guy of his size would be more physical and better at clearing people out of the crease, but his defensive awareness is lacking and he's too top heavy so often times it seems that he's actually getting the worst of any hits. He'd be ok as a 6 with limited minutes, but as a 3/4 he's atrocious.

Maata is simply too slow to keep up with today's NHL, and he lacks physicality. The stick work, positioning, etc is all top notch, but he's regularly exposed as a problem. Him and Oleksiak together as our middle pairing is clearly the biggest hole on the team. If Maata had a faster guy beside him like Schultz I think he'd be somewhat serviceable. Oleksiak has such a weird skill set that it's hard to match someone with him.

Jack Johnson might be an idiot but he at least brings physicality, and he's a pretty smooth skater. I don't particularly like trading Cole and signing him instead, but I don't dislike him nearly as much as others here.

 

[Jacob]

I don't really have an issue with any of them and I think on any given night one of them could be pretty solid or the worst of the group, even Riikola, who has been good for a rookie and all but really for a 25 year old he's nothing special.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Am I the only person who thought Maatta had a strong season last year and his strongest since Sully got here? I see a lot of talk about ongoing regression, but last season I saw a decided uptick...

100% agree. He got his defensive game back in 16/17 and then was more confident last season and became more relevant offensively.

Still wasn’t always a great fit but he was good and worth his contract.

 

[Gurglesons]

I love ya @ziggyjoe212 but you lost me at "Maatta is always rock in the playoffs" because that's exactly what he is not. In the 2017 run, he was probably our worst dman and we had a Letang-less defense. He was abused in the Ottawa series.

Absolutely not. While you feel sometimes people on boards say stuff to agree with others, people who say Maatta has been a rock in the playoffs are turning a blind eye.

He has actually been pretty mediocre outside of the 15-16 post season in the playoffs.

 

[Peat]

He has actually been pretty mediocre outside of the 15-16 post season in the playoffs.

I thought 16-17 was the better of his two runs and that he was our best dman who doesn't like drinking three beers at the same time during it. Weird how the eye test goes here.

He's also got the lowest GA/60 of any of our dmen other than Lovejoy since 15-16. I'd agree that he's been up and down in the play-offs, but I think he's been more up than down.

I don’t think it matters who we consider the worst of the three.

What matters is which one has the most value in a trade and I can’t imagine why the answer wouldn’t be Maatta.

What his value is I’m not sure, but it’s probably higher than we think.

The next question is, will they ever be willing to move him, because he’s quite highly thought of by the coaches and brass... and before you think WTH, remember they love ZAR also.

So, many of us may not like Maatta, but that’s not how he’s perceived by the org... and I suspect there are other org that would covet him.

Spoken like a man with better things to do than argue on net forums all day.

You're right that trade value probably determines who goes (if any) though and that Maatta comfortably wins that.