Who deserves the most credit for helping establish a winning culture?

[Northern Avs Fan]

Without Nathan Mackinnon the Avs likely have a losing record prior to this season. Sakic’s done an incredible job and as the team continues to succeed more and more of the success will be put on his shoulders. However prior to this season the Avs won because of Nathan Mackinnon. The winning culture could not be created without winning games.

Joe Sakic has a chance to be the architect of a perennial Stanley Cup contender but prior to this season the Avs don’t have any recent success if it isn’t for Nate.

Let’s add Rantanen to last season too. 87 points in 74 games. I don’t think we get to the playoffs without his contribution.

 

[henchman21]

In the midst of the worst season in 20 years, pick up a guy on waivers... playoffs next two seasons and contending this season. That guy:

 

[The Abusement Park]

In the midst of the worst season in 20 years, pick up a guy on waivers... playoffs next two seasons and contending this season. That guy:

It’s cuz of that damn mustache. It’s beautiful.

 

[Balthazar]

It's Mackinnon who's carrying this team on his shoulders and the team literally started performing well after he took off. He single handedly won that playoff series last year and we've seen what he can do this year with half the roster injured.

He's the one at the very center of the team's success; not Sakic, not Rants, not Landy, not Bednar. They all help of course but this is Mackinnon's team.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Kevin Lowe

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

It's Mackinnon who's carrying this team on his shoulders and the team literally started performing well after he took off. He single handedly won that playoff series last year and we've seen what he can do this year with half the roster injured.

He's the one at the very center of the team's success; not Sakic, not Rants, not Landy, not Bednar. They all help of course but this is Mackinnon's team.

Do you really think MacKinnon was that much better than Rantanen in the playoffs? Or last regular season?

 

[Foppa2118]

Do you really think MacKinnon was that much better than Rantanen in the playoffs? Or last regular season?

I don't know if I'd put Mikko ahead of Nate in terms of importance, but I don't think we give Mikko enough credit sometimes for how dominant he can be.

He looked like he was on his way to a potential hart trophy/art ross season before he injured his ankle in late October. He looked unstoppable.

 

[PAZ]

I don't see how it couldn't be Sakic. Yes, we have Mackinnon, Landeskog, and Johnson as good leaders, but their leadership ability would amount to very little without putting the right guys around them.

Sakic has brought in guys with a winning attitude with almost every acquisition he's made - most importantly with Bednar who has previously won the ECHL Kelly Cup and the AHL Calder Cup as coach.

• Ian Cole - 2x cup champion with Pittsburgh
• Bellemare - cup final with Vegas
• Nieto - cup final with San Jose
• Donskoi - cup final with San Jose
• Burakovsky - cup champion with Washington
• Grubauer - cup champion with Washington
• Wilson - cup final with Nashville

Also consider the draft pedigree of players brought in. Cole; Burakovsky; Nichuskin; Namestnikov; Kadri; and Wilson were all 1st round picks, suggesting that they are players who scouts trusted from an early age due to not only skill, but also a certain level of leadership ability, work ethic, and professionalism.

Bringing in secondary pieces that went deep doesn't really mean much - especially when almost all of them were bottom 6ers. Look at Arizona - who brought in players that had much more important roles.

- Kessel - Multiple cup champion
- Hjalmarsson - Multiple cup champion
- Stepan - Cup final with NYR
- Raanta - Cup final with NYR
- Grabner/Demers/Gologoski/Soderberg have plenty of playoff experience as well

These players buy into the current team's culture - they aren't the players that set it.

 

[AvsWraith]

I think it has to be a combination of Sakic and the leadership core of Landy, MacK, and Rants.

Joe Sakic had a couple of the best years ever for a GM, IMO:

- Duchene trade - G and Byram... are you kidding me... best trade since Lindros.
- Kadri trade, Bura trade, NUKE, Name, Dongger, ect. THE best off-season this organization has ever had, IMO. We needed a 2nd line badly, but Sakic blew it out of the water with these pickups. So much talent.

And the leadership core has really come together over the last few years. Really have to give them credit for what they have built as far as the locker room, and on ice leadership goes. They have taken charge of this team.

 

[Foppa2118]

Without Jared Bednar does Nathan MacKinnon turn into a dominant top 5 player in the world?

Does Landy have the kind of year he did last season without MacKinnon playing the way he did?

Does Burakovsky have the kind of season he had that gives Joe Sakic credit for bringing him in? Does Nuke go from NHL bust to a good middle sixer? Does Kadri tone down his game to the level he did that's helped him remove the aspects of his game that hurt the team? Does Ryan Graves go from a busted prospect to a full time top 4 NHLer in his mid 20's?

Do Matt Calvert and Blake Comeau up their conditioning level to such a high degree so they can play his system, that they look years younger and have much improved seasons?

Do Cale Makar and Sam Girard have as much success early in their career as they have so far?

Does this team in general improve as much as they have on the details of the game and their two way play?

I would argue the answer to all those questions is most likely no.

 

[Richard88]

I think it has to be a combination of Sakic and the leadership core of Landy, MacK, and Rants.

Joe Sakic had a couple of the best years ever for a GM, IMO:

- Duchene trade - G and Byram... are you kidding me... best trade since Lindros.
- Kadri trade, Bura trade, NUKE, Name, Dongger, ect. THE best off-season this organization has ever had, IMO. We needed a 2nd badly, but Sakic it blew it out of the water with these pickups. So much talent.

And the leadership core has really come together over the last few years. Really have to give them credit for what they have built as far as the locker room, and on ice leadership goes. They have taken charge of this team.

 

[PAZ]

Without Jared Bednar does Nathan MacKinnon turn into a dominant top 5 player in the world?

Does Landy have the kind of year he did last season without MacKinnon playing the way he did?

Does Burakovsky have the kind of season he had that gives Joe Sakic credit for bringing him in? Does Kadri tone down his game to the level he did that's helped him remove the aspects of his game that hurt the team? Does Ryan Graves go from a busted prospect to a full time top 4 NHLer in his mid 20's?

Do Matt Calvert and Blake Comeau up their conditioning level to such a high degree so they can play his system, that they look years younger and have much improved seasons?

Do Cale Makar and Sam Girard have as much success early in their career as they have so far?

Does this team in general improve as much as they have on the details of the game and their two way play.

I would argue the answer to all those questions is most likely no.

Mackinnon was going to breakout regardless of who coached him. I like Bednar and think he's a good coach, but his first season shows that he isn't the reason for the turnaround. The locker room was a mess, we had a bunch of underachieving players, and many question marks. Bednar wasn't able to wave a magic wand and fix all those issues, nor was he able to during the start of the second season. Duchene being traded and it becoming Mack's team was the catalyst, not what Bednar did. It's no slight on Bednar, a coach can only do so much - what he can do is help maintain the culture, steer the ship, and balance all of the teams personalities. But when a team has had a losing culture for so long, it usually takes a special player or the whole team to buy into something to right it.

There are many factors that leads to a winning culture, but it all started and continues with Mackinnon.

 

[Foppa2118]

Mackinnon was going to breakout regardless of who coached him. I like Bednar and think he's a good coach, but his first season shows that he isn't the reason for the turnaround. The locker room was a mess, we had a bunch of underachieving players, and many question marks. Bednar wasn't able to wave a magic wand and fix all those issues, nor was he able to during the start of the second season. Duchene being traded and it becoming Mack's team was the catalyst, not what Bednar did. It's no slight on Bednar, a coach can only do so much - what he can do is help maintain the culture, steer the ship, and balance all of the teams personalities. But when a team has had a losing culture for so long, it usually takes a special player or the whole team to buy into something to right it.

There are many factors that leads to a winning culture, but it all started and continues with Mackinnon.

I don't really see anything that would suggest MacKinnon was gonna breakout anyway though. Maybe he would have, but he was nowhere near his potential before Bednar got here.

The big reason for Nate's turnaround is that he's become much more even keeled, and that is a trait that Bednar is great at instilling in all his players. He's helped Landy become much more even keeled to avoid the reckless plays that earned him bad penalties and suspensions. He's helped Kadri tone down the emotions in his game as well.

I'm not a Bednar fanboy but I think you have to give credit where credit is due. Pretty much everyone and the team has gotten better every year with him as coach. I haven't seen any Avalanche coach get the most out of as many players as Bednar has. That includes Quenneville and Hartley.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I don't know if I'd put Mikko ahead of Nate in terms of importance, but I don't think we give Mikko enough credit sometimes for how dominant he can be.

He looked like he was on his way to a potential hart trophy/art ross season before he injured his ankle in late October. He looked unstoppable.

This season MacKinnon was far more important to the Avs than Rantanen. Mikko was injured for a large chunk of the season and wasn’t as impactful as Nate when in the lineup.

Last season and in the playoffs I thought they were pretty similar in value to the team. MacKinnon a little bit more valuable, but not by a lot.

I think saying MacKinnon singlehandedly won that playoff series is a real disservice to Rantanen.

 

[Balthazar]

Do you really think MacKinnon was that much better than Rantanen in the playoffs? Or last regular season?

Yes.

This thread is a case of people overlooking the obvious. If you're not sure that this team is Mackinnon's, look at the stats this year.

 

[Foppa2118]

This season MacKinnon was far more important to the Avs than Rantanen. Mikko was injured for a large chunk of the season and wasn’t as impactful as Nate when in the lineup.

Last season and in the playoffs I thought they were pretty similar in value to the team. MacKinnon a little bit more valuable, but not by a lot.

I think saying MacKinnon singlehandedly won that playoff series is a real disservice to Rantanen.

I don't know if it'll happen but I think Mikko has the potential to become a better player than Nate. He's got better vision and passing skills and has better physical attributes with his size as well. So he can have success against a wider variety of opponents.

Nate has a big edge with speed and his shot, but Mikko's a very good skater with an improving shot every year himself. His one timer has become one of the best in the league, and his backhander is elite. If he can keep improving his shot, I think he may outproduce Nate.

It looked like that may even happen this year before he injured his ankle. What Nate has though is that game breaking clutch ability in big games. That may be enough to set him apart if Mikko doesn't show he has a similar ability.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Yes.

This thread is a case of people overlooking the obvious. If you're not sure that this team is Mackinnon's, look at the stats this year.

I 100% think this is MacK’s team.

I just disagree that MacK singlehandedly took the team to the playoffs last year and won a round. Batman was great, but Robin was pretty good too.

 

[Foppa2118]

Yes.

This thread is a case of people overlooking the obvious. If you're not sure that this team is Mackinnon's, look at the stats this year.

I would agree that it's still Nate's team, but this season's stats are a little misleading in that regard with all the injuries.

Mikko was having a better season than Nate early in the year before he missed 16 games with a high ankle sprain that can really bother players for a year or more after returning. Then he missed the final 12 games of the season with that upper body injury.

Nate only missed the last game of the season before it was paused.

 

[TheRarestDangles]

Kevin Lowe

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

I don't know if it'll happen but I think Mikko has the potential to become a better player than Nate. He's got better vision and passing skills and has better physical attributes with his size as well. So he can have success against a wider variety of opponents.

Nate has a big edge with speed and his shot, but Mikko's a very good skater with an improving shot every year himself. His one timer has become one of the best in the league, and his backhander is elite. If he can keep improving his shot, I think he may outproduce Nate.

It looked like that may even happen this year before he injured his ankle. What Nate has though is that game breaking clutch ability in big games. That may be enough to set him apart if Mikko doesn't show he has a similar ability.

Nate is the better player. It’s possible Rantanen ages better than MacKinnon late in their careers, because I think he has the better ice-vision and IQ of the two, but who knows.

As for the bolded, MacKinnon is a little older and had an extra crack at the postseason. But, in last years playoffs, Rantanen came trough in just as many big moments as Nate.

 

[Balthazar]

Mikko injured himself at the end of last season and looked rusty in last year's playoffs. He didn't play all that well despite ending up with good stats.

Mack was just on a different level than everyone else.

 

[Tweaky]

Sakic...

Drafted MacKinnon. Hired Bednar. Traded Duchene for Girard, etc. Was a driving force in making Landeskog captain. Drafted Rantanen. Drafted Makar. Acquired Kadri, etc.... all those other pieces mentioned above. I put these in order of importance (IMO).

Yes, each of the players mentioned (MacK, Rants and Landy mainly) have been huge...but without Sakic, they are not on the team, or (possibly) not in the role they have. And he does still go down and talk with the boys, giving advice and talking attitude and such. Even MacKinnon has no choice but to listen when Joe speaks...Hart, Smythe, Pearson/Lindsey, All Star MVP, Triple Gold, Olympic MVP, WJC Gold and 9th all time NHL scoring. Hard to ignore anything that man says, not even MacK can claim to be better or more talented.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Mikko injured himself at the end of last season and looked rusty in last year's playoffs. He didn't play all that well despite ending up with good stats.

Mack was just on a different level than everyone else.

Are you serious?







Mikko Rantanen’s Pass Allows Colin Wilson To Easily Tip In Power Play Goal

Mikko Rantanen 0+2 @ Calgary, WCQF Game 2

Mikko Rantanen 2+1 @ Calgary, WCQF Game 5

Mikko Rantanen 0+1 @ San Jose, WCSF Game 2

I’m not sure where this Rantanen stuff comes from, but I just don’t see it. It’s sad how much disrespect he gets around here.

 

[Balthazar]

Are you serious?







Mikko Rantanen’s Pass Allows Colin Wilson To Easily Tip In Power Play Goal

Mikko Rantanen 0+2 @ Calgary, WCQF Game 2

Mikko Rantanen 2+1 @ Calgary, WCQF Game 5

Mikko Rantanen 0+1 @ San Jose, WCSF Game 2

I’m not sure where this Rantanen stuff comes from, but I just don’t see it. It’s sad how much disrespect he gets around here.

Yes I'm very serious and it's not disrespect at all. I love Rants but now you're acting like someone who looked at stats and highlights but didn't remember the games.

He was clutch but didn't play very well for most of the playoffs. If you ever have too much time in your hands you could dig for the GDT's and read what people who were watching the games live had to say about his play. You'll find a lot of "he's the worst player on the ice" followed later by "redemption" talks for the games where he scored.

Or you could also re-watch the games if you have access to them.

 

[the_fan]

There is only one right answer..