Who are your top 3 Norris Trophy finalists

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'm not complaining about anyone. I don't have a problem with Hedman winning. I don't agree at all that zone starts relative to teammates is as important as the absolute zone start percentages. Subban and Hedman definitely play on better teams with way better secondary offensive defensemen than Klingberg, so their coaches have other guys to put in offensive zone draws. The Stars don't have the same luxury at all, and none of those other defensemen are close to genuine shutdown guys to whom a coach would purposefully give tough minutes like Vlasic; just "no offense" guys. Nor is Klingberg's actual deployment as favorable or his defense nearly as poor this year as Burns' last year.

The most "cushioned" player on an average team like the Stars is probably going to get as many starts in the defensive zone as the most defensively deployed player on a great team like the Predators or the Lightning, because there are more defensive zone starts to go around. The actual minutes that Klingberg played were comparable in difficulty by zone starts and the competition's Corsi and expected goals to those other three, and he had great defensive results when he played them. To call his minutes "pillowsoft" compared to the other three just because he gets more offensive starts than his teammates is a mischaracterization of the actual difficulty of his minutes.

To the first point, I mean, Methot and Hamhuis aren't Vlasic but they're obviously defensive d-men. I get there may be no more offensive options beyond JK so sure it stands to reason that he gets the most offensive minutes, but even that being true, he didn't do nearly enough to separate himself from the field with those minutes compared to what Burns and Erik Karlsson have done recently. And that's ignoring minutes played, as I mentioned above, Klingberg is the last option on the PK, and he's the last option for d-zone deployment. That's cushioned relative to teammates.

And to the second paragraph no, that's an incorrect assumption on your part. So thankfully at least you said 'probably.'

Hedman 520 ozone starts, 439 dzone starts.
Subban had 405 ozone, 529 dzone
Doughty 491 ozone, 519 dzone
Klingberg 494 ozone, 441 dzone

And again, that's given less time on ice, barely any PK time, and a lion's share of PP time. He spent more than 100 less minutes penalty killing than any of those 3, and about 50 more min on the PP.

His minutes are softer.

 

[Deficient Mode]

To the first point, I mean, Methot and Hamhuis aren't Vlasic but they're obviously defensive d-men. I get there may be no more offensive options beyond JK so sure it stands to reason that he gets the most offensive minutes, but even that being true, he didn't do nearly enough to separate himself from the field with those minutes compared to what Burns and Erik Karlsson have done recently. And that's ignoring minutes played, as I mentioned above, Klingberg is the last option on the PK, and he's the last option for d-zone deployment. That's cushioned relative to teammates.

And to the second paragraph no, that's an incorrect assumption on your part. So thankfully at least you said 'probably.'

Hedman 520 ozone starts, 439 dzone starts.
Subban had 405 ozone, 529 dzone
Doughty 491 ozone, 519 dzone
Klingberg 494 ozone, 441 dzone

And again, that's given less time on ice, barely any PK time, and a lion's share of PP time. He spent more than 100 less minutes penalty killing than any of those 3, and about 50 more min on the PP.

His minutes are softer.

Ok so Klingberg has 3% more offensive zone starts and 3% fewer offensive zone starts at 5 on 5 than Doughty and less favorable zone starts than Hedman. Meanwhile he has scored 33% more points at 5 on 5 than Doughty (32 to 24; 21 to 14 in primary points too) and 14% more points at 5 on 5 than Hedman with marginally worse zone starts... he has the same number of primary points as Subban but 28% more total points at 5 on 5 compared to 5% more offensive zone starts and 7% fewer defensive zone starts.

So yeah, I mean, you can fret about zone starts all you want, but Klingberg absolutely outscores Doughty and Hedman relative to his deployment at even strength. So your original argument - "the deployment in and of itself is a negative, you have to crush it relative to deployment, and other guys have done more with less" - is absolutely wrong as it applies to Klingberg.

Power play scoring is heavily team-dependent. Penalty killing too. Same thing was said about Karlsson over and over as a knock on his defense when he was clearly the best defensive defenseman on his team too. It's a similar case where Stars have more defensemen who can kill penalties but no one who can come close to Klingberg's offensive value. Kings have the best penalty kill in the league so maybe Doughty gets a bit of extra credit there but Tampa's penalty kill is poor and Nashville's is just a bit above average.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Lol at above discussion. As if defensive abilities have anything to do with Norris.

 

[kingsfan28]

This article just got published today.

Top 5 in the race:
Carlson
Klingberg
Doughty
Burns
Suter

Norris Trophy race could be five-player dead heat

When you're -18 , you don't belong on anyones list.

 

[olli]

Hedman and Doughty are for sure the top 2. 3rd is between Jones, Peitrangelo, Josi and Subban. Jones will likely not get a nomination because he doesn't have the reputation of the other guys. If St Louis doesn't make the playoffs than Peitrangelo won't get a nomination.

 

[olli]

Lol at above discussion. As if defensive abilities have anything to do with Norris.

Well they do to a certain extent because right now none of the top 5 scoring defensemen are being discussed for the Norris.

 

[mikeyp24]

For D can someone look some stuff up for me I only post on my phone so it' hard to really mass gather stats. I don't like to use advanced stats in a team based game. They can be very deceiving based on the pairing, teams play style, cherry picked catagory where 1 guy dominates 1 catagory but sucks at the rest and you just don't use that one. So the areas I think show who plays the best all around D would be these categories:
Goals
TOI
Blocked shots
Take aways
Hits
+/-
Average PK TOI
Primary Assists

If anyone could try and find those for Hedman Doughty Jones Klinberg and I guess PK because a few people have picked him.

 

[Oddbob]

I am going with...

1) Nick Lidstrom
2) Bobby Orr
3) Ray Bourque

 

[ThirdManIn]

I am going with...

1) Nick Lidstrom
2) Bobby Orr
3) Ray Bourque

These guys are all right, but they can't compete with the 65+ years of experience Harvey brings to the position. This is his year IMO.

 

[Kant Think]

I hear Eddie Shore is getting lighter and lighter on his feet these days...

 

[mikeyp24]

I hear Eddie Shore is getting lighter and lighter on his feet these days...

Not as light a Paulie Shore aka The Weasel

 

[triggrman]

Will be interesting seeing if both Josi and Subban finish top 5 and which one finishes higher.

 

[Mike Lowry]

Anyone who is listing Subban as a Norris contender should have their accounts deactivated until after the playoffs, and really, for life. If you really think he is one of the best, then not only are you showing you have no clue about the sport, you can't even be bothered to watch it to at least attempt to learn it.

PK Subban is not the best D on his own team. When you are outplayed by another player who wears the same jersey, you cannot be listed as the best in the league. Not only that, Subban is outplayed by 2, and in most cases, 3 other guys on his own team.

I've posted this a few times, and yet to hear a rebuttal (at least you guys are saving yourselves more embarrassment). I was in Denver a few weeks ago at the game between the Avs and Preds. The game goes to OT, and the Preds start Jossi. Then Ellis gets the next shift. Then Ekholm steps on the ice as Nashville scores to win it. No Subban at all. A few weeks before I'm watching Ottawa and Nashville. The teams go to OT, and Subban doesn't see the ice until 2mins in. He gives up a scoring chance, and is never seen from again as Stone wins it a few shifts later. Every other game I've watched that has gone to OT, the teams involved play their best players. But you guys are going to try and sell it that Nashville doesn't? Maybe take the hint and realize Subban not only isn't the best in the league, he's not even the best on his team.

It's one thing for you guys to run away from the fact that Subban can't make Team Canada, but why do you think Subban is the best D in the league, when his own team doesn't want him on the ice for 3 on 3? Time after time when it matters, the Preds choose Ellis and Jossi.


Doughty should win the Norris. Hedman should be a close second in votes. I think Pieterangelo should be up there as well, but the media votes on this, so who knows. I'm sure Klingberg and Karlsson will split some votes will will muck up the overall numbers. And since Roman Jossi is the best D on the team with the most points, he should get some votes too.

 

[triggrman]

Mike Lowery ladies and gentlemen. Please tip your waiter, he'll be here all week.

 

[End of Line]

Hedman, Doughty, Jones

 

[Goodbahd]

Hedman or Doughty will win it. The rest are irrelevant.

 

[dmj616]

Hedman.

15 Even Strength Goals and +33. Very close though.

 

[Sam Spade]

Hedman or Doughty will win it. The rest are irrelevant.

Agree. Think Carlson may be top three, not that he deserves it, Orlov and Niskanen are better and more important to the Caps, but JC did put up a lot of points and voters like that.

 

[maacoshark]

I'd say Hedman and Doughty are the top 2. The 3rd could be a number of guys. Carlson, Subban, Klingberg, Josi, Pietrangelo. I'd vote for Hedman

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Could someone give me Jones' case please? Seeing his name a lot and honestly hadn't considered him.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Give it to Hedman or Doughty. Both guys are amazing defenseman.

 

[snipes]

Doughty/Hedman

Pietro

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Give it to Hedman or Doughty. Both guys are amazing defenseman.

Hedman wins, puts Doughty inside cup, carries him around, both guys cheer

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Ok so Klingberg has 3% more offensive zone starts and 3% fewer offensive zone starts at 5 on 5 than Doughty and less favorable zone starts than Hedman. Meanwhile he has scored 33% more points at 5 on 5 than Doughty (32 to 24; 21 to 14 in primary points too) and 14% more points at 5 on 5 than Hedman with marginally worse zone starts... he has the same number of primary points as Subban but 28% more total points at 5 on 5 compared to 5% more offensive zone starts and 7% fewer defensive zone starts.

So yeah, I mean, you can fret about zone starts all you want, but Klingberg absolutely outscores Doughty and Hedman relative to his deployment at even strength. So your original argument - "the deployment in and of itself is a negative, you have to crush it relative to deployment, and other guys have done more with less" - is absolutely wrong as it applies to Klingberg.

Power play scoring is heavily team-dependent. Penalty killing too. Same thing was said about Karlsson over and over as a knock on his defense when he was clearly the best defensive defenseman on his team too. It's a similar case where Stars have more defensemen who can kill penalties but no one who can come close to Klingberg's offensive value. Kings have the best penalty kill in the league so maybe Doughty gets a bit of extra credit there but Tampa's penalty kill is poor and Nashville's is just a bit above average.

Wait what? You wanted 'raw numbers' so I gave them to you; why are you going back to percentages, especially the wrong ones?

And you're actually just proving my case. Klingberg is getting far favorable 5v5 deployment, those are offensive minutes. Doughty's had 150 more even strength minutes than Klingberg and JK still has more offensive zone starts. Meanwhile, Doughty at least is getting hard-matched against McDavids of the world 5v5 while Klingberg is getting hidden from them. Subban is the same, or was most of the year, and Hedman--I can't speak for explicitly--but I imagine his is the same given it was Sergachev getting the Klingberg minutes all year with Tampa. And then you go on to punish the guys who are big parts of their special teams because they're good at it? Come on.

Klingberg has more in common with the St. Louis version of Shattenkirk than he does with Victor Hedman when it comes to deployment and distribution of playing time. He's his team's last option defensively. I still have him at #5 this year, but again, the precedent for production for guys with Klingbergs deployment is Burns/Karlsson levels of leading the field by 20-30 points, not "not even leading d-man scoring."

 

[absolute garbage]

Could someone give me Jones' case please? Seeing his name a lot and honestly hadn't considered him.

Jones has been amazing for the Jackets this season. By far the most minutes, plays in all situations, 16 goals and top 10 in defenseman scoring. Great mobility and skill, and he truly takes advantage of that by playing such an active game. Constantly pinching and jumping into the play deep in the offensive zone. Great shot, and basically all of Jackets' PP-offense runs through him.

If there was a stat about breaking up plays in the neutral zone, I wouldn't be shocked if Jones ranked at the very top. He gives the opposition zero breathing room whey they try to break out, relentlessly on their skin breaking up plays and allowing the Jackets go other way (leads the team in defenseman corsi). He's got that NBA like condor-wingspan, remarkable reach and zone of coverage in the defensive zone. Active stick that sometimes comes out of nowhere to take away a sure goal from the opposition. A true #1 defenseman in both ends of the rink, just a horse.

Where to rank him though? That's tough to say. Frankly I haven't seen the same kind of separation this season from anyone that you saw last season. In this kind of year these rankings and awards are so narrative/reputation based. Playing in Columbus, Jones is not the front runner there, but I could honestly see him getting 1st place votes from some who spent more time watching him play (because there's no obvious winner or top 2/3 this year).