Who are top 4 defensemen?

[MoeBartoli]

While I’ve long been a skeptic of Bean becoming a top 4 defender, I’m surprised at the low support by others he’s received.

 

[thebus88]

Bean-Blankenburg-Boqvist

I think Bean/Blankenburg are adequate #3-#4 guys right now and would be “ok” with them as a 2nd pair on a CBJ team moving forward.

Boqvist has legit offensive ability, that does need to be used in offensive/sheltered roles at the moment, and I do question his ability for his “defensive awareness” and intensity to reach a level for him to play “top 4” level TOI numbers.

The real problem here is I look at Werenski as a LOW level #1, and really more so a #2 D man, and I don’t see a guy like Jiricek becoming any more than that, especially not within the next 3-4+ years, where I question where Werenski will be as a player at that point.

I really like Mateychuk and haven’t followed/seen enough of Ceulemans to make much of an evaluation, but again, I think best case scenario, your looking at #2-#4 guys, no sooner that 2-3 years out.

Again, I don’t see the timeline of our prospect pool’s growth as meshing very well with our current “core” of “vets”. (Jenner-Werenski-Gaudreau-Laine)

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Based on what?

[RE: Guillaume Richard] I'm basing it on his mix of details + tools.

Most other CBJ defensive prospects are tools-based (i.e. Ceulemans having size + high-end skill). Richard's overall toolkit is a little bit below but he's advanced at being a play-killing defensive defenseman. The reason why I believe there's more to his game is because:

1. He's a really advanced skater
2. He's 6'2 with a lot of room to fill out
3. He's in the development path (NCAA) that will give him the time to physically mature

I see him as the type of defenseman who plays a simple game, and does so really well, with tools to make that type of game effective. Kind of like a pre-injury Markus Nutivaara or a SJ/DAL era Jason Demers, but with a bit more size/mobility.

Richard doesn't need to be a guy who constantly jumps in the rush or anything. If the Jackets can help him develop a bit more confidence with the puck and a good exit pass, he'll be a longtime NHLer.

The Jackets have a lot of offensive-minded activators in the system (Boqvist, Ceulemans, Mateychuk) and Richard strikes me as a player who could develop into an ideal compliment for one of them on the second pair.

Being a second pair college defenseman and one of the few players with a negative plus minus? Do you see his D-partner as top4 too? Taige Harding is bigger, more filled out, and has shown the ability to score points; and I don’t think he’s a top4 guy either.

I'm not basing anything off of his statline, it's about his style of game mixed with projectable traits that will elevate that style + allow for him to add other elements to his game.

Canada took Tyson Hinds over him to the WJC, actually he didn’t even get a camp tryout.

I'm still scratching my head over Canada not taking Ceulemans or Mateychuk. Great players get left off of Canada's WJC roster all the time.

To be clear, I don't see him as someone who's going to make an impact in the next two years. I think he'll develop a bit in the AHL after playing at Providence for another year.

Who is the last notable NHL defenseman to come from Providence? Mark Fayne?

I'm not one to put a lot of faith in this type of reasoning, but I understand why some do.

To me, it's like the "Ohio State doesn't develop quarterbacks" stuff that led to Justin Fields falling in the draft. Doesn't matter how Dwayne Haskins or Cardale Jones or Troy Smith turned out, he's a different player. The same narrative always flew around about Texas Tech until Mahomes blew up.

Long story short, if he ends up as a bottom pairing shutdown guy I’d be happy.

I'd also be happy with this outcome, I just think that there's enough projection in him to be more than that.

 

[JacketFanInFL]

Bean and Boquist for bottom 4 players. I can be talked into Gudbranson but I did not vote for him. The rest are bottom pair players on a contender.

 

[MoeBartoli]

Well, in summary…..it looks like there’s good faith in Blanks, modest faith in Boqvist and minimal faith in the balance. Let’s hope Jiricek, Svozil and Mateychuk or Couelemans are the real deal. Thanks to all who participated.

 

[Cowumbus]

Well, in summary…..it looks like there’s good faith in Blanks, modest faith in Boqvist and minimal faith in the balance. Let’s hope Jiricek, Svozil and Mateychuk or Couelemans are the real deal. Thanks to all who participated.

My faith in Boqvist gets smaller each game

 

[Doggy]

My faith in Boqvist gets smaller each game

My faith in many of these guys has gotten smaller this season.

For those suggesting Peeker is a 2nd or 3rd pairing d-man on a playoff team, what am I missing? I came into this season as hopeful as anyone that he was going to make a jump this year. Instead he went from first pairing to third pairing (behind rookies who were not necessarily expected to be NHLers this season) to being a healthy scratch two games in a row. What happens when Blanks comes back during this road trip?

I think about the fact we are paying Peeker and Guds a combined $6.75 Million per season the next three years and Guds another $4 Million for a fourth year. It makes me cringe. Who would you rather have, Peeker and Guds or Gavrikov?

BTW, for a chuckle, anyone listen to Berni's interview with BobbyMac and Jody the beginning of this week? My wife and I were remarking at how good his English is (you can hear an accent but it's pretty darn subtle...almost less of an accent than a Canadian). Anyway, couple moments Jody remarks about how good his English is and asks him if he had any NHL coaches in Switzerland. Berni seemed unsure any of his coaches in Switzerland had any experience and then he said he had Serge Aubin as a coach. Jody and I say at the same time, Aubin was a Blue Jacket. Berni was surprised, he had no idea.

FTR, both Bjork and Berni were both good interviews in that podcast episode. Both seemed very honest in their answers.

 

[koteka]

I think about the fact we are paying Peeker and Guds a combined $6.75 Million per season the next three years and Guds another $4 Million for a fourth year. It makes me cringe. Who would you rather have, Peeker and Guds or Gavrikov?

My probably unpopular opinion is I would rather have Gudbranson and Peeke during the early careers of our high draft choices than Gavrikov. Part of what we need to do with the young guys is keep them from taking cheap shots. Gudbranson, Olivier, and to a lesser extent Peeke do that. Gavrikov doesn’t. Kent Johnson and others arent going to develop if Tom Wilson gives them concussions. If we were an established older team then Gavrikov is more valuable, but not with what this team is.

 

[Doggy]

My probably unpopular opinion is I would rather have Gudbranson and Peeke during the early careers of our high draft choices than Gavrikov. Part of what we need to do with the young guys is keep them from taking cheap shots. Gudbranson, Olivier, and to a lesser extent Peeke do that. Gavrikov doesn’t. Kent Johnson and others arent going to develop if Tom Wilson gives them concussions. If we were an established older team then Gavrikov is more valuable, but not with what this team is.

I don't agree but I respect your choice...and that you explained it.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Kind of feels like, at the moment, this franchise has one top pair Dman - Werenski. Maybe you include Gavirkov as a top 4 caliber Dman as well, but at the moment it seems like he'll get moved at the deadline.

Either way, this team is full of 6/7 types (at best) and a bunch of unproven prospects. But with the recent Peeke scratches, it seems quite likely this team has to move at least 2 and possibly 3 blueliners this offseason (or TDL).

Werenski - 1
2 - 3
4 - Gudbranson

1 - Maybe Jiricek grabs this spot at camp; otherwise they may be stuck rotating in Bjork, Peeke, Blankenburg
2 - this is Gavrikov's spot, if they can come to terms; if not then it's wide open - Bean, Berni, Mateychuk (possibly)
3 - seems like this is Boqvist's spot, but you never know (he's been injury prone and I don't get the sense the coaching staff / FO has loved his play), so if not Boqvist then potentially one of Jiricek/Bjork/Peeke/Blankenburg
4 - dependent on Gavrikov staying in the 2LD spot, but possibly Bean/Christansen/Berni/Mateychuk/Svozil

Note - I mentioned a couple guys, but it's tough to know how/when to project Jiricek/Mateychuk/Svozil/Ceulemans and their NHL readiness. The team still has Knazko and Bjorgvik Holm in the system as well.

It's unfortunate this team has to waste one of the six D spots on Gudbranson for 3.5 more years.

I believe it was last year or last offseason the chatter was making a "D for F" type of trade. I think it's just a numbers crunch and they need to move 2 (maybe 3) of: Bean, Peeke, Boqvist, Gavrikov. Put another way - there are only 4 starting spots that aren't spoken for by Werenski & Gudbranson. In all likelihood, one of those four spots will be David Jiricek's next season.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Either way, this team is full of 6/7 types (at best) and a bunch of unproven prospects.

I don’t disagree but I feel like that was the intent, to give guys - Peeke, Bean, Boquist, Blankenburg - the chance to prove themselves and, if not, then course correct in the future (which could be as soon as this off-season).

It’s ever the debate - allow some time for guys to show you what they are and are going to be or try and slot someone in every roster spot. Maybe we’d prefer there not be so many of those prove-it slots available but we had acquired these guys.

 

[CBJx614]

I don’t disagree but I feel like that was the intent, to give guys - Peeke, Bean, Boquist, Blankenburg - the chance to prove themselves and, if not, then course correct in the future (which could be as soon as this off-season).

It’s ever the debate - allow some time for guys to show you what they are and are going to be or try and slot someone in every roster spot. Maybe we’d prefer there not be so many of those prove-it slots available but we had acquired these guys.

I think the FO thought they'd have a better understanding of those guys by now, literally all the defenseman with question marks about their play all went out long term

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think the FO thought they'd have a better understanding of those guys by now, literally all the defenseman with question marks about their play all went out long term

And we are using that to hang the GM.

 

[koteka]

And we are using that to hang the GM.

I get injuries. I am hanging the GM because he hired the coach. Jarmo has done a lot of good things for the franchise and he deserves to be the GM of an NHL hockey team. But sometimes it is time to move on. I think the end of the season is one of those times.

 

[tunnelvision]

I'll put my updated thoughts on the defense here as well.

I don't have a lot of patience for Boqvist anymore to show his top-6 potential going forward. Basically I see a bad defensive player who makes slower and worse decisions with the puck than he's supposed to do. He got an opportunity on PP1 last night and didn't look any better than Bjork. I don't even know if Jarmo can afford to take the risk of penciling him in to next year's top-7 D. We probably should trade him or waive him next year or move him to wing.

In my mind the jury is still out for Bean. He's got better frame and speed in general than Bo and can defend to some degree. Less puck poise for sure but I thought I saw a tiny bit of progress in strength and defensive awareness this year. I may be delusional in thinking he could be a bottom pair guy on a playoff contending team so for now I'm ok with keeping him through next season. I'm not attached to that belief though if his play ends up falling back to same ol Bean level as early as 2023 preseason.

Either Peeke or Gudbranson needs to go (out of the top-6) before next season. Or maybe both, depending on "the cost" and the effects to the cap.

As of now I don't think any of the fringe guys has top-6 potential (Berni/Bjork/Christiansen/etc.).

That leaves Werenski and Blankenburg as the only legit top-6 defensemen.

So to summarize, we have 2 "surefire" top-6 guys and 2 "maybes" in Bean and one of Gud/Peeke.

Werenski - ???
??? - Blankenburg
Bean - Gud/Peeke

Gavy would be an answer to the other ??? if we knew that both he and CBJ wanted him to stay. Assuming he will re-sign here, my conclusion from this exercise is that the Jackets need at least one more top-4 RD to compete for a playoff spot in 2023-24. Jiricek of course is a good candidate since he has top-4 D qualities but the million dollar question is can they count on Jiricek growing enough physically and mentally over the summer to step into that role comfortably so that Jarmo doesn't have to desperately seek for solutions elsewhere with another possible overpayment?

 

[majormajor]

I'll put my updated thoughts on the defense here as well.

I don't have a lot of patience for Boqvist anymore to show his top-6 potential going forward. Basically I see a bad defensive player who makes slower and worse decisions with the puck than he's supposed to do. He got an opportunity on PP1 last night and didn't look any better than Bjork. I don't even know if Jarmo can afford to take the risk of penciling him in to next year's top-7 D. We probably should trade him or waive him next year or move him to wing.

What was Jarmo smoking when he gave Boqvist that contract?

It was 8 games ago for the player, Jarmo had almost the same information we have now.

In my mind the jury is still out for Bean. He's got better frame and speed in general than Bo and can defend to some degree. Less puck poise for sure but I thought I saw a tiny bit of progress in strength and defensive awareness this year. I may be delusional in thinking he could be a bottom pair guy on a playoff contending team so for now I'm ok with keeping him through next season. I'm not attached to that belief though if his play ends up falling back to same ol Bean level as early as 2023 preseason.

I'd try to move the contract but Bean is a fine #6 guy if needed. Not a bad situation.

Either Peeke or Gudbranson needs to go (out of the top-6) before next season. Or maybe both, depending on "the cost" and the effects to the cap.

As I've pointed out before, the chances against with these two are night and day. One is an actual shutdown D, with shutdown results. The other is a goon that can't defend and significantly weakens the team when he is on the ice.

As of now I don't think any of the fringe guys has top-6 potential (Berni/Bjork/Christiansen/etc.).

I'll take Berni and Bjork as 6/7 guys. Their results have been okay. Christiansen is erratic but skilled and I wouldn't even rule out that he could reach that level in a year or two.

That leaves Werenski and Blankenburg as the only legit top-6 defensemen.

So to summarize, we have 2 "surefire" top-6 guys and 2 "maybes" in Bean and one of Gud/Peeke.

Werenski - ???
??? - Blankenburg
Bean - Gud/Peeke

Gavy would be an answer to the other ??? if we knew that both he and CBJ wanted him to stay. Assuming he will re-sign here, my conclusion from this exercise is that the Jackets need at least one more top-4 RD to compete for a playoff spot in 2023-24. Jiricek of course is a good candidate since he has top-4 D qualities but the million dollar question is can they count on Jiricek growing enough physically and mentally over the summer to step into that role comfortably so that Jarmo doesn't have to desperately seek for solutions elsewhere with another possible overpayment?

If we're not sure if Jiricek is ready then we have a bit of a dilemma. We can't sign a long term deal for the right side because Jiricek would only need an extra year. I would suggest Tyson Barrie - Oilers fans are trying to give him to us anyways to make cap space, but he's a decent player on a deal that expires in 2024, and he'd be a guaranteed upgrade at #1PPQB.

 

[tunnelvision]

What was Jarmo smoking when he gave Boqvist that contract?

Maybe Jarmo thought it was only a matter of strictly following Kevin Collins's workout program for Boqvist to take the next step in his game. Unfortunately being in better condition does not necessarily make you a quicker processor of the game. Not sure if Jarmo ever factored that in to the evaluation of the player before giving out the contract.

As I've pointed out before, the chances against with these two are night and day. One is an actual shutdown D, with shutdown results. The other is a goon that can't defend and significantly weakens the team when he is on the ice.

Agreed, but as we all realize that 16M$ deal the other guy has will likely complicate the decision making.

I'll take Berni and Bjork as 6/7 guys. Their results have been okay. Christiansen is erratic but skilled and I wouldn't even rule out that he could reach that level in a year or two.

Sure. I should've been more precise, I meant their potential to be top-6 D next year, in a scenario where Jackets secure a PO spot. Who knows how far they can get in 2+ years.

Barrie is an intriguing option, would he be included in the Gavrikov deal or are they talking about sending him here in a separate trade?

 

[majormajor]

Barrie is an intriguing option, would he be included in the Gavrikov deal or are they talking about sending him here in a separate trade?

Gavrikov trade, but it could be in a separate deal. The fans also want Nyquist, which makes even more sense in my opinion. He'd be a perfect fit there.

We could extend Gavrikov and trade Gus for Barrie+.

 

[thebus88]

I'll put my updated thoughts on the defense here as well.

Boqvist…Basically I see a bad defensive player who makes slower and worse decisions with the puck than he's supposed to do….. or move him to wing.

In my mind the jury is still out for Bean. He's got better frame and speed in general than Bo and can defend to some degree. Less puck poise for sure but I thought I saw a tiny bit of progress in strength and defensive awareness this year. I may be delusional in thinking he could be a bottom pair guy

Either Peeke or Gudbranson needs to go

With more defensive minded and mobile defenseman, Boqvist would fit and look a lot better. He should be used regularly on the PP (at least as the #2 PPQB) to get the most out of his worth/value. All that said, even with the plethora of “scoring wingers” on the team, I’ve said for awhile that I would look to try him at wing. He’s looking more like a bottom pairing “PP specialist”.

I’ve been extremely vocal of my “love” for Bean. He still leaves me wanting more at times, and he isn’t as “dynamic” of a player as Blankenburg, however, imo they are very similar in value and impact. He’s looked like our best offensive D man at times, and I think his physical play and overall defense is underrated. I think both guys are decent #4 now and could improve things in their games to become better.

This is essentially how I feel about those last 2 guys, however, unlike the praise he gets from many others, I add Gavrikov to this list. I don’t think he adds much more than Gudbranson to this defense as all we need is defensive play and Gudbranson adds a “toughness” factor that while some may diminish, DOES exist. Gavrikov is a better “two way” guy, but if a possible return is ANYWHERE near what is being reported (1st rd pick) you move him. I also think some attempts to paint Peeke as much or any better than Gudbranson, is nothing more than favoritism. I’d say “potential” regarding Peeke should be looked at as nothing more than “hope”.