Who are our Core Players?
- Thread starter BoHorvat 53
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JuniorNelson
Registered User
I think the core is fluid right now. If Benning (?) was mad enough to sputter about Vrbata, is anyone safe after the playoffs?
Imposed contractually on this regime; Sedins, Burrows, Bieksa, Hamhuis and Higgins. How many will remain is a matter of conjecture. I'd like to imagine none of them are safe but I know the Sedins are tenured. I think this is ill-advised as hell but nobody else does.
Next season will almost certainly feature Sedins, Vrbata, Hamhuis and Miller. These are not the same players I'd protect in an expansion draft, though.
Really, if somebody demanded any of the older Canucks in a trade, except the Sedins, do you think Benning would refuse? They all have heir-apparents on the squad. Even if the Sedins were sought by somebody, you'd have to listen.
Canucks proved beyond any trace of doubt that they are not playoff performers. The core still doesn't get it. They still mouth platitudes and outright mistruths (we aren't too old). So much denial! Hopefully Benning's disgust reaches all corners of the dressing room.
Imposed contractually on this regime; Sedins, Burrows, Bieksa, Hamhuis and Higgins. How many will remain is a matter of conjecture. I'd like to imagine none of them are safe but I know the Sedins are tenured. I think this is ill-advised as hell but nobody else does.
Next season will almost certainly feature Sedins, Vrbata, Hamhuis and Miller. These are not the same players I'd protect in an expansion draft, though.
Really, if somebody demanded any of the older Canucks in a trade, except the Sedins, do you think Benning would refuse? They all have heir-apparents on the squad. Even if the Sedins were sought by somebody, you'd have to listen.
Canucks proved beyond any trace of doubt that they are not playoff performers. The core still doesn't get it. They still mouth platitudes and outright mistruths (we aren't too old). So much denial! Hopefully Benning's disgust reaches all corners of the dressing room.
ChilliBilly
Registered User
at the start of next season for ages ....
Sedins 35
Burrows 34
Vrbata 34
Higgens 32
Hanson 29
Bieska 34
Hamhuis 32
Edler 29
If you go by http://news.ubc.ca/2014/05/15/nhl-study/ a massive study basically says forwards peak between 26 - 30 with their peak performance years bing 24 -32.
For D men much the same, peak years being 24 - 34.
“While confirming conventional wisdom that players peak in their late 20s, the study proves it is wishful thinking for managers to expect a player in his mid-20s to continue improving significantly,” says Brander, an economist. “The vast majority of players are at 90 per cent of their best by age 24, although there are a few late bloomers.”
I think we will agree that Naslund and the Sedins count as late bloomers, as does Edler. Heck Edler is the only one on that list who could realistically have any of his best 5 years in front of him.
Anyhow keep the Sedins, Hamhuis and Hansen, but everyone else on the list above should not be playing hockey in about 2 years ... well not as anything other than depth players. And it will be interesting to see if the sedins want to stick around for a year or two to mentor players. They will still be valuable 2 line players and power play specialists.
Edit - oh and are oldest player is Miller at 35. I did not like this signing at the time and am liking it less now.
Sedins 35
Burrows 34
Vrbata 34
Higgens 32
Hanson 29
Bieska 34
Hamhuis 32
Edler 29
If you go by http://news.ubc.ca/2014/05/15/nhl-study/ a massive study basically says forwards peak between 26 - 30 with their peak performance years bing 24 -32.
For D men much the same, peak years being 24 - 34.
“While confirming conventional wisdom that players peak in their late 20s, the study proves it is wishful thinking for managers to expect a player in his mid-20s to continue improving significantly,” says Brander, an economist. “The vast majority of players are at 90 per cent of their best by age 24, although there are a few late bloomers.”
I think we will agree that Naslund and the Sedins count as late bloomers, as does Edler. Heck Edler is the only one on that list who could realistically have any of his best 5 years in front of him.
Anyhow keep the Sedins, Hamhuis and Hansen, but everyone else on the list above should not be playing hockey in about 2 years ... well not as anything other than depth players. And it will be interesting to see if the sedins want to stick around for a year or two to mentor players. They will still be valuable 2 line players and power play specialists.
Edit - oh and are oldest player is Miller at 35. I did not like this signing at the time and am liking it less now.
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Average age of our 'core' is 32 years old. For a team that doesn't look like it will contend for a cup in the next 3 years, that is nothing short of disastrous.
What a huge black eye this is on the previous management group. Really highlights how much work needs to be done by Benning and co. to keep this organization from falling off the face of the Earth in the coming half dozen years.
I guess this is what happens when you don't draft an NHL player outside the 1st Rd in over a decade. To think that was also done with one of the bigger scouting budgets in the league just makes it sting that much more.
to me Core means guys we would never trade or ask to waive their NTC because we want to build around them. With that in mind ,
Sedin
Sedin
Horvat
Edler
Tanev
That is our true core, anyone else is replaceable not including prospects.
Sedin
Sedin
Horvat
Edler
Tanev
That is our true core, anyone else is replaceable not including prospects.
There is no argument that Gillis' biggest failure as GM was his trust that 'better direction' could fix his useless scouts and useless scouting. Unfortunately it took him 4 years after being hired to realize that the problem was the scouts themselves, and after the 2012 draft he began to make changes that were positive and led to better results.
Are you not concerned, then, to see the same 'better direction' BS being spewed by Benning while the biggest problem (Delorme) is moved back to a position of more influence? And we start seeing Mackenze Stewart picks again?
It felt to me like we were finally starting to see the light ... only to have it taken away again in the last year. Fascinated to see how this draft develops so we have a better read on where we're going.
Also, I should have listed Horvat as part of the core which (along with Lack assuming he's the goalie going forward) makes it a bit younger.
Nucker101
Foundational Poster
- Apr 2, 2013
- 21,104
- 16,548
This is exactly how I've felt since the day he was fired and especially this year since hat last draft of his looks pretty good still(usually they tend to look worse and worse for Canuck fans). After those many years as GM, he added some people to the staff and probably had a good idea on which scouts to trust based off of recommendations made in past drafts.
Benning is attracting from square one again and brought along Weisbrod who is coming off of a terrible draft in Calgary before being demoted.
KeninsFan
Fire Benning already
- Feb 6, 2012
- 5,489
- 0
The old core:
Sedins (NMC)
Bieksa
Hamhuis
Burrows
----
Higgins (NTC)
Hansen (NTC)
Kesler and Luongo were a big part of the old core but were never the problem. The players with limited NTCs like Hansen and Higgins are "glue guys" and won't make a huge difference in a culture change. It's funny how Luongo got blamed for breakdowns when the Nucks gave up 6,7,8 goals and lost 3-0 leads. We did the same thing to the Calgary Flames this year with Miler.
Guys like Burrows/Hamhuis/Bieksa are the players that should be moved if Benning wants change. Burrows has a huge impact on how refs view us whether fans admit it or not.
Bieksa has been a vocal leader in the locker room and personallly I see a lot of "Casual Kev" in the overall team game. A lot of lethargic starts and mental breakdowns over the past 7 seasons.
Hamhuis isn't that vocal but is worth the most. I'd keep him around as a LD to shelter Corrado/Clendenning.
Sedins have a NMC. They're the only reason this team isn't in the lottery.
The new core should be built around Horvat, Edler and Tanev. If that's the decision they make then the old members of the core will have to be shipped out. You can't have a locker room divided by two leadership groups. Look at San Jose's cluster**** this year.
Sedins (NMC)
Bieksa
Hamhuis
Burrows
----
Higgins (NTC)
Hansen (NTC)
Kesler and Luongo were a big part of the old core but were never the problem. The players with limited NTCs like Hansen and Higgins are "glue guys" and won't make a huge difference in a culture change. It's funny how Luongo got blamed for breakdowns when the Nucks gave up 6,7,8 goals and lost 3-0 leads. We did the same thing to the Calgary Flames this year with Miler.
Guys like Burrows/Hamhuis/Bieksa are the players that should be moved if Benning wants change. Burrows has a huge impact on how refs view us whether fans admit it or not.
Bieksa has been a vocal leader in the locker room and personallly I see a lot of "Casual Kev" in the overall team game. A lot of lethargic starts and mental breakdowns over the past 7 seasons.
Hamhuis isn't that vocal but is worth the most. I'd keep him around as a LD to shelter Corrado/Clendenning.
Sedins have a NMC. They're the only reason this team isn't in the lottery.
The new core should be built around Horvat, Edler and Tanev. If that's the decision they make then the old members of the core will have to be shipped out. You can't have a locker room divided by two leadership groups. Look at San Jose's cluster**** this year.
I don't know what was worse, Gillis thinking all you needed to do to be successful at the draft was target character, intelligence and integrity - or the fact the only player he drafted that played in the NHL weaselled his way out of Vancouver, displaying a lack of these traits by his own admission.
As far concern over Benning being at the helm, I would like to see how this coming draft plays out before claiming to know what the future may look like. IMO he had a good 1st draft in Vancouver, and it seemed like he was taking guys he personally liked and followed closely in McCann, Demko and Tryamkin.
If Benning wasn't spending so much time in the field, taking in probably more games of draft eligible players than any other GM in the league, I would be more concerned that he didn't make enough changes to the scouting staff. Hopefully him being out and about seeing the players for himself will help save this franchise from the putrid drafting we've seen over the last 10+ years.
Benning has ran extremely successful drafts before, on a shoestring budget. I'm cautiously optimistic he can again get results at the draft, this time with a ton of money and resources at his disposal. Time will tell.
Hodgson fooled everyone - it wasn't like there were red flags there. Everyone associated with him in Brampton and with the Canadian age group programs raved about his character. Unfortunately, when adversity hit, we saw that that was all fluff.
I assume Benning was out scouting a fair bit in Boston, and their drafts were terrible. That's the problem - he had good results with one team (over a decade ago now) and lousy results with the next.
His evaluations of Sbisa and others do not convince me that he's any sort of good talent evaluator.
As for his first draft, his first pick looks suspect (even to your reckoning) and his last two picks were terrible. Tryamkin doesn't look great. The three other picks look good right now, although one was moved in a suspect trade.
Bruins fans were saying as assistant GM he had a heavy hand in their pro scouting. While he was there, the Bruins pro scouting was excellent.
I don't know how much input he had on the amateur side, though it is interesting to note the Bruins were exceptionally successful in drafting guys that were good enough to get at least a taste of NHL action. They ranked as the best team in the NHL in this regard over the last 5 years I believe, factoring in pick position and hit rate. Consequently, the Canucks ranked dead last in this regard over the same time period.
Benning also was apparently behind the Torrey Krug signing. A skill set this organization has completely failed to address over the last half dozen years, save the Ehrhoff trade.
Canadian Canuck
Hughes4Calder
Win One Before I Die
Cautious Optimism
- Jul 31, 2007
- 5,119
- 4
I consider this the core:
Sedins
Bieksa
Burrows
Hamhuis
Higgins
Hansen
Edler
You can't blame Hansen for not scoring timely goals, he is 3rd liner thrown into top line minutes. Higgins just sucks. Hamhuis is anchored down by the weakest dman in our top 6. Bieksa is just a pylon.
Burrows was on his way out but had a good year and I think he is worth keeping around now.
The Sedins just aren't comparable to top lines on other teams in the playoffs. Possession is nice but for the love of god get some shots instead of that 4th, 5th, 6th pass. They should have owned Calgary.
Out:
Sedins, Bieksa, Higgins
But that won't happen and we will suck for the next few years until Bo is captain and our prospect pool evolves into the next gen of Canucks.
Stale.
Sedins
Bieksa
Burrows
Hamhuis
Higgins
Hansen
Edler
You can't blame Hansen for not scoring timely goals, he is 3rd liner thrown into top line minutes. Higgins just sucks. Hamhuis is anchored down by the weakest dman in our top 6. Bieksa is just a pylon.
Burrows was on his way out but had a good year and I think he is worth keeping around now.
The Sedins just aren't comparable to top lines on other teams in the playoffs. Possession is nice but for the love of god get some shots instead of that 4th, 5th, 6th pass. They should have owned Calgary.
Out:
Sedins, Bieksa, Higgins
But that won't happen and we will suck for the next few years until Bo is captain and our prospect pool evolves into the next gen of Canucks.
Stale.
LSCardeal
Registered User
Tinhorn1
Registered User
- Aug 7, 2007
- 1,110
- 327
It's an interesting question. From my perspective there isn't really a core at this point, aside from maybe Horvat, Edler and Tanev. All of the older players except possibly the Sedins and Hamhuis -- if those three can maintain some effectiveness in lesser roles two or three years down the road -- should no longer be considered a part of the core, as the team is not currently strong enough to compete for the cup.
Who else is there, really? Hansen doesn't strike me as a core piece of anything, as much as I like him. Dorsett is obviously expected to play some sort of leadership role. I have a hard time seeing either one as anything more than a complementary player.
It's a tough one. For players who will actually be entering their prime in the next few years, and who are currently on the team, there is really only Horvat, Vey, and Tanev--and Kassian, if they keep him around. Maybe Kassian will be a core player.
It remains to be seen if any of Cassels, McCann, Shinkaruk, Virtanen, Bärtschi, Vey (no point in giving up on him), Corrado, Clendening, or Pedan can make themselves irreplaceable. I sure hope so.
Edit: Add Hutton to that prospect list, I suppose--and any prospects that might surprise. Who would have imagined that Burrows would be part of the core, back in the day?
Edit 2: As for goaltenders, who knows? If Lack is back, I guess he's the first guy for the next generation, assuming they then turf Miller next year.
Who else is there, really? Hansen doesn't strike me as a core piece of anything, as much as I like him. Dorsett is obviously expected to play some sort of leadership role. I have a hard time seeing either one as anything more than a complementary player.
It's a tough one. For players who will actually be entering their prime in the next few years, and who are currently on the team, there is really only Horvat, Vey, and Tanev--and Kassian, if they keep him around. Maybe Kassian will be a core player.
It remains to be seen if any of Cassels, McCann, Shinkaruk, Virtanen, Bärtschi, Vey (no point in giving up on him), Corrado, Clendening, or Pedan can make themselves irreplaceable. I sure hope so.
Edit: Add Hutton to that prospect list, I suppose--and any prospects that might surprise. Who would have imagined that Burrows would be part of the core, back in the day?
Edit 2: As for goaltenders, who knows? If Lack is back, I guess he's the first guy for the next generation, assuming they then turf Miller next year.
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me2
Go ahead foot
The thing is none of those players are showing a lot of regression besides Bieksa, and maybe Hamhuis. They have played to the level expected of them.
Shareefruck
Registered User
me2
Go ahead foot
pretty much
Well 3 if you have Tanev and Edler in it with Horvat. The rest of the futures aren't in the core because they haven't shown enough to be considered solid NHLers yet, lone alone core players. I like Kassian but he's not a core player.
dwarf
Registered User
Horvat and Tanev are the future. The Core, is Sedins, Burrows, Edler, Bieksa and Higgins.
Bieksa and Higgins need to go for picks.
Bieksa and Higgins need to go for picks.
