Which team is better?

[Cucumber]

Team A
Neymar - Bale - Messi
Pogba - James
Kroos
Marcelo - Boateng - Ramos - Lahm
Courtois

vs

Team B

Ronaldo-Suarez-Greizmann
Muller
Ineista-Modric
Alba-Silva-Pique-Alaba
Neuer

Click to read more...

 

[Savant]

I would take B. Alaba isn't a RB though.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think A is much better.

 

[Deficient Mode]

A has a better front line and B has better everything else. Needs more Mkhitaryan.

 

[cgf]

A has a better front line and B has better everything else. Needs more Mkhitaryan.

I'm not that high on Pogba (rate Dybala, Bonucci & Marchisio more); but I do prefer team A's midfield set up as well as their front 3.

 

[Franck]

Both these teams are completely devoid of any sort of defensive balance.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I'm not that high on Pogba (rate Dybala, Bonucci & Marchisio more); but I do prefer team A's midfield set up as well as their front 3.

Team B has better talent in midfield, mostly because Modric and big game Iniesta are still the best two players. While I generally prefer a 1-2 (A) in midfield instead of a 2-1 (B), it's hard to say anything about the setup when there are just names on the page and no details for how they'd work together. Team A's midfield setup isn't perfect on paper, either.

Both these teams are completely devoid of any sort of defensive balance.

That's why I'd rate the midfield on the names on the page instead of the formations. Although I think team B's midfielders are all underrated defensively.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

That's why I'd rate the midfield on the names on the page instead of the formations. Although I think team B's midfielders are all underrated defensively.

I disagree. I think an attacking team could get by defensively with Kroos and Pogba as their CM's, but even a team that has 70% of the possession would probably struggle if they only had Modric defending in the midfield, and everyone else attacking.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I disagree. I think an attacking team could get by defensively with Kroos and Pogba as their CM's, but even a team that has 70% of the possession would probably struggle if they only had Modric defending in the midfield, and everyone else attacking.

Iniesta and Müller are both good defensively. How is Modric inferior to Kroos defensively?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Iniesta and Müller are both good defensively. How is Modric inferior to Kroos defensively?

I am saying the combination of Kroos and Pogba defensively is better than Modric with no help, which is what "Team B" is. Iniesta and Muller are not able to play a box to box midfield role, which is what would be needed. A team playing with Modric as a holding mid and then the rest attackers would get run over if they ever lost the ball. Pogba and Kroos is not a bad defensive CM combo.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I am saying the combination of Kroos and Pogba defensively is better than Modric with no help, which is what "Team B" is. Iniesta and Muller are not able to play a box to box midfield role, which is what would be needed. A team playing with Modric as a holding mid and then the rest attackers would get run over if they ever lost the ball. Pogba and Kroos is not a bad defensive CM combo.

What? Why? No team needs a box-to-box midfielder to be defensively sound. You just need to stay compact and press in an organized fashion.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

What? Why? No team needs a box-to-box midfielder to be defensively sound. You just need to stay compact and press in an organized fashion.

Easier said than done.

There's a reason teams don't play a 4-1-2-3 or 4-1-3-2, or anything like that. Teams that play with only one really capable CM in the defensive aspect of the game would likely get torn apart. Even if you put someone like Kante or Dier or Matic or any pure defensive mid, I don't think you'd have enough defensive cover in a competitive game of football.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Easier said than done.

There's a reason teams don't play a 4-1-2-3 or 4-1-3-2, or anything like that. Teams that play with only one really capable CM in the defensive aspect of the team would likely get torn apart. Even if you put someone like Kante or Dier or Matic or a pure defensive mid, I don't think you'd have enough defensive cover in a competitive game of football.

I don't even know what you're talking about. It is actually pretty easily done. And as I've said, Iniesta is very capable defensively. Defensive ability=/=being big, strong, fast, and good at tackling. Not in this sport.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I don't even know what you're talking about. It is actually pretty easily done. And as I've said, Iniesta is very capable defensively.

So which teams play a real 4-1-3-2 or 4-1-2-3 with only one player capable of defending deep into their own half of the field?

 

[Deficient Mode]

So which teams play a real 4-1-3-2 or 4-1-2-3 with only one player capable of defending deep into their own half of the field?

Where are you getting the 4-1-3-2 part from exactly? Neither of these teams is lined up that way.

How are team B going to be defending deep in their own half of the field if they have 70% possession (like you said)? How is the opposition going to get into the other half if my team immediately counter presses and recovers the ball (something that is almost implied with 70% possession), and when, even if they get through my midfield, have to get around a defensive wizard like Thiago Silva, who rarely makes mistakes in reading a situation and reacting to offensive actions, and excels at staying high and stepping up to interrupt a counter as well?

Even if they didn't have 70%, this is basically the defensive strategy of some of the best defenses in the world.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Where are you getting the 4-1-3-2 part from exactly? Neither of these teams is lined up that way.

How are team B going to be defending deep in their own half of the field if they have 70% possession (like you said)? How is the opposition going to get into the other half if my team immediately counter presses and recovers the ball (something that is almost implied with 70% possession), and when, even if they get through my midfield, have to get around a defensive wizard like Thiago Silva, who rarely makes mistakes in reading a situation and reacting to offensive actions, and excels at staying high and stepping up to interrupt a counter as well?

Even if they didn't have 70%, this is basically the defensive strategy of some of the best defenses in the world.

4-1-3-2 or 4-1-2-3 is interchangeable for the point I'm making. Thats what I'm saying about that.

I think what you are suggesting is fantasy football. You can try that against a team who is terrible, and hope you beat them by 5, 6, 7 goals because they don't have the talent to even touch the ball, but I would not play a team like Team B against any team that can put up any type of fight, whether you can out possess them 2-1 or not. They will probably be lining up with a very defensive team, while you will be lining up with a very attacking team. If they get past midfield, and during the course of any competitive game, even teams that get out possessed 2-1 do create a few chances, your numbers in defending their chances likely wouldn't be enough. I don't think you could expect Iniesta or Muller to be breaking up attacks in the defensive half of the field.

Even a team like Barcelona lines up with Busquets and Rakitic as their defensive cover in midfield. Real Madrid has Kroos and Modric, and sometimes Casemiro. I really don't think you can line up with 5 attacking midfielders unless you are playing a third or fourth division team in a cup game or maybe a semi-pro team in preseason. If its international football, maybe against a team like Lichtenstein or Andorra.

 

[Deficient Mode]

4-1-3-2 or 4-1-2-3 is interchangeable for the point I'm making. Thats what I'm saying about that.

I think what you are suggesting is fantasy football. You can try that against a team who is terrible, and hope you beat them by 5, 6, 7 goals because they don't have the talent to even touch the ball, but I would not play a team like Team B against any team that can put up any type of fight, whether you can out possess them 2-1 or not. They will probably be lining up with a very defensive team, while you will be lining up with a very attacking team. If they get past midfield, and during the course of any competitive game, even teams that get out possessed 2-1 do create a few chances, your numbers in defending their chances likely wouldn't be enough. I don't think you could expect Iniesta or Muller to be breaking up attacks in the defensive half of the field.

Even a team like Barcelona lines up with Busquets and Rakitic as their defensive cover in midfield. Real Madrid has Kroos and Modric, and sometimes Casemiro. I really don't think you can line up with 5 attacking midfielders unless you are playing a third or fourth division team in a cup game or maybe a semi-pro team in preseason. If its international football, maybe against a team like Lichtenstein or Andorra.

Why are you drawing such sharp lines between defensively capable midfielders and defensively weak midfielders? Remember when Barca were dominating the world with a midfield of Busquets, Xavi, and Iniesta? Which of Xavi and Iniesta do you think is a "box-to-box" midfielder capable of "defending deep in his own half"? Not Xavi I hope.

It's not fantasy football. It's the very clear reality of contemporary football that the likes of Bayern, Dortmund, and Barca are capable of suffocating opponents in their own half and never letting go, and that preventing counters has a lot more to do with organization in counter-pressing than having midfielders who can make challenges and cover a lot of space (that's generally non-existent in their defense anyway).

Remember when Guardiola fielded 17 year old, 1,78m Gianluca Gaudino next to Alaba and Götze in midfield vs then German #2 Wolfsburg, and Bayern still won 2-1? Was that a fantasy match?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Why are you drawing such sharp lines between defensively capable midfielders and defensively weak midfielders? Remember when Barca were dominating the world with a midfield of Busquets, Xavi, and Iniesta? Which of Xavi and Iniesta do you think is a "box-to-box" midfielder capable of "defending deep in his own half"? Not Xavi I hope.

It's not fantasy football. It's the very clear reality of contemporary football that the likes of Bayern, Dortmund, and Barca are capable of suffocating opponents in their own half and never letting go, and that preventing counters has a lot more to do with organization in counter-pressing than having midfielders who can make challenges and cover a lot of space (that's generally non-existent in their defense anyway).

Remember when Guardiola fielded 17 year old, 1,78m Gianluca Gaudino next to Alaba and Götze in midfield vs then German #2 Wolfsburg, and Bayern still won 2-1? Was that a fantasy match?

One off games can happen, I am talking about over a sustained period of time I think Team A benefits from having much better defensive balance in central midfield. Its my opinion. I think if these teams were battling for a league, Team A wins, and I think a big part of it is that I think Team A is better defensively in central-midfield. Not that it really matters.

 

[Corto]

Even a team like Barcelona lines up with Busquets and Rakitic as their defensive cover in midfield. Real Madrid has Kroos and Modric, and sometimes Casemiro. I really don't think you can line up with 5 attacking midfielders unless you are playing a third or fourth division team in a cup game or maybe a semi-pro team in preseason. If its international football, maybe against a team like Lichtenstein or Andorra.

There's a reason Busquets is always in Barca's starting 11. Why Casemiro's in starting 11 in Real since Zidane took over.

To be fair, I think all the CMs in Barca and Real (measuring sticks for excellence at this point) are defensively very capable. Modric, Iniesta, Rakitic and Kroos all play a responsible defensive game and all of them are model CMs.
But even so, their coaches prefer to have a proper DM on the pitch with them, and that's been the way they have been successful.

---

As for the teams, it's very hard to tell... Forwards are likely a wash, difference being that Messi's team wouldn't have a natural striker/finisher, even though they would likely be able to create more further down the pitch.
OTOH, Ronaldo and Suarez have more finishing power, but would likely get less service than Messi's trio up top.

Defense is sort of a wash, Neuer wins over anyone in goal.

Midfield's the most interesting one.

Kroos and Pogba playing behind James makes sense, except that James is still to prove he's a top player on a consistant basis at club level.

Modric and Iniesta would likely be the world's best CM duo, but I don't think Müller's stye fits playing with Ronaldo and Suarez at all. He's more of a finisher, runs into empty pockets, into space... This team would benefit a lot more from someone like Özil in Müller's place.

---

What I'm saying is... Both teams are absolutely loaded with star power, but I do wonder if the chemistry would be there.

 

[Blender]

I went with team A because the front line is better, and I like the midfield setup of Pogba, James, and Kroos more. Not that they are more talented, but I think that midfield compliments itself better than Muller, Iniesta, and Modric do.

 

[Cassano]

Muller at CM is bad, Team A for me easily.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Team A has Bale, therefore A.

 

[cgf]

One off games can happen, I am talking about over a sustained period of time I think Team A benefits from having much better defensive balance in central midfield. Its my opinion. I think if these teams were battling for a league, Team A wins, and I think a big part of it is that I think Team A is better defensively in central-midfield. Not that it really matters.

Bayern played like that in a lot of matches, it wasn't a 1 off game. Ditto Dortmund. How well you control the match and how fluid you are building up with the ball is far more important than how well you defend in your own box.

Muller at CM is bad, Team A for me easily.

Muller seems to be playing off the striker, not CM in that shape; and that's kind of exactly where he just had his career year playing off of Lewa.

I still prefer team A, because I think their midfield is better set up to dominate the ball, as a Modric-Iniesta partnership would need time to figure out how to make it work between them...whereas team A's midfield just falls into place more naturally, with Kroos as the pendulum behind the wild Pogba and the elegant Hamez.

Though if team B played a back three with Silva, Pique & Alaba behind an Iniesta-Modric partnership; with Alba pushing up the wing to play opposite Griezmann, with a CR7, Suarez & Mueller trident; my vote would change. There the roles are much more intuitive for all of the players involved's skillsets and would take less time to figure chemistry out.

 

[MrFunnyWobbl]

it's eh

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Bayern played like that in a lot of matches, it wasn't a 1 off game. Ditto Dortmund. How well you control the match and how fluid you are building up with the ball is far more important than how well you defend in your own box.

If two teams are relatively even, which I think you can say "A" and "B" are, I think over a long season or even a long competition like the UCL, the team with more balance is better, and will have a better chance to win.