Which scenario do you prefer? Lottery Pick or Playoff spot?

[Nanabijou]

We have been through this numerous times in the past. The big winning streak to finish a season, knocking off TB & playing Boston tough are two of the momentum builders that would carry the CBJ to greater heights. How did they work out? Give me a top 5 pick next year and I'll be much more optimistic about the team than if they aqueak into the playoffs and are quickly ousted. I legitimately cannot comprehend the sort of mind that can't come to that conclusion

We have been through this many times. The disaster Arniel era gave CBJ the #2 pick Ryan Murray to flank #1 pick Rick Nash and other top 6 picks on the roster like Nikita Filatov and Derrick Brassard to carry the team to greater heights. How did that work out? Give me the Torts years over that any day. I legitimately can’t comprehend the sort of mind who can’t come to that conclusion.

 

[Vapaatunnus]

Preferring a lottery pick this year is *not* the same as tanking or rooting for suck.

It's as simple as saying 1) JG is not going to give us 19 points in the standings and 2) we were on a rebuild path anyway.

The signing of JG hasn't changed the trajectory of the flight, only its duration.

Maybe not, but JG and healthy Laine together can.

 

[BB88]

We have been through this numerous times in the past. The big winning streak to finish a season, knocking off TB & playing Boston tough are two of the momentum builders that would carry the CBJ to greater heights. How did they work out? Give me a top 5 pick next year and I'll be much more optimistic about the team than if they aqueak into the playoffs and are quickly ousted. I legitimately cannot comprehend the sort of mind that can't come to that conclusion

How is this current situation in any way shape or form the same as the run in 2019?

Panarin, Bob& Duchene were walking at the end of season and that was already pretty much expected, it was a 1 year run.

Now you have Werenski locked up for 6 years, Gaudreau locked up for 7 years, Laine soon hopefully locked up for 5-8 years.
You have 2 elite to great prospects in the NHL as 19y olds while having the best prospect pool you’ve ever had if I’m not wrong in saying that.
Longterm wise this is the brigtest it has ever been, no contract drama, deepest prospect pool.
So how are these the same situation?

& do you know how bad things would have to go in order for you to get a top5 pick?
It’s the absolutely worst case scenario where everything explodes.
Arizona, Montreal, Chicago, Flyers, Seattle, finishing below any of those teams would be beyond brutal.

& look at the forever rebuilding teams like Arizona& Buffalo, real model franchises to follow

 

[Halberdier]

I prefer a good season with TOP-16 finish. For purely selfish reasons I would love to see Laine on WHC tournament on his & mine hometown Tampere, but that aside, let them have as good season they can manage.

 

[LoneFunyan]

& do you know how bad things would have to go in order for you to get a top5 pick?
It’s the absolutely worst case scenario where everything explodes.
Arizona, Montreal, Chicago, Flyers, Seattle, finishing below any of those teams would be beyond brutal.

& look at the forever rebuilding teams like Arizona& Buffalo, real model franchises to follow

The question wasn't "do you want to be worse than Arizona, Montreal, Chicago, Flyers, Seattle". It was "do you want to be in the lottery". Those are very different things.

 

[BB88]

The question wasn't "do you want to be worse than Arizona, Montreal, Chicago, Flyers, Seattle". It was "do you want to be in the lottery". Those are very different things.

I’m not following.

I replied to a post asking for another top5 pick

 

[LoneFunyan]

"Tank" is a thought-terminating cliche. It doesn't mean anything inherently and no one to date has been able to define it.

Most people take it to mean "you want management to embrace losing". How would that work? Do we really think Jarmo or JD go into the locker room during the first pre-season practice and say "OK, guys, the plan this year is to lose a lot so please don't try and just enjoy your paychecks."

True tanking is borne out by management decisions like shipping out tons of talent, taking on bad talent, burying talent in the minors, etc. You can *see* tanking when it happens.

The Yotes are tanking. The Hawks are tanking. The pre-Mario and pre-Sid Pens tanked.

Sometimes a team is just bad. See: us from inception to about 2014-ish. That's not tanking, that's just a poor organization at the intersection of incompetence and bad luck. We didn't try to be bad - we just were.

I am not for tanking. But what I am for is a year of learning and growth, and I'm not going to be upset about bad bounces, bad luck and losses. That was the plan all along and the vast majority of us were on board with it until JG signed and now suddenly we think our inexperienced D, suspect goaltending and weak center play are all mitigated?

 

[LoneFunyan]

I’m not following.

I replied to a post asking for another top5 pick

You can get a top 5 pick without being one of the 5 worst team in the league. Not that it's likely, and definitely not likely for us, but it's possible.

 

[GMR]

We haven't seen a playoff game for 6 years. Just think about that. There can't be many current teams with that kind of futility.

Of course I'd rather see some playoff games. Plus, it would be good experience for future years for a young squad. At some point these players need to taste big games and the postseason. All they've become accustomed to is losing. That's a bad habit which is hard to kick.

 

[stevo61]

"Tank" is a thought-terminating cliche. It doesn't mean anything inherently and no one to date has been able to define it.

Most people take it to mean "you want management to embrace losing". How would that work? Do we really think Jarmo or JD go into the locker room during the first pre-season practice and say "OK, guys, the plan this year is to lose a lot so please don't try and just enjoy your paychecks."

True tanking is borne out by management decisions like shipping out tons of talent, taking on bad talent, burying talent in the minors, etc. You can *see* tanking when it happens.

The Yotes are tanking. The Hawks are tanking. The pre-Mario and pre-Sid Pens tanked.

Sometimes a team is just bad. See: us from inception to about 2014-ish. That's not tanking, that's just a poor organization at the intersection of incompetence and bad luck. We didn't try to be bad - we just were.

I am not for tanking. But what I am for is a year of learning and growth, and I'm not going to be upset about bad bounces, bad luck and losses. That was the plan all along and the vast majority of us were on board with it until JG signed and now suddenly we think our inexperienced D, suspect goaltending and weak center play are all mitigated?

So you dont disagree with most people but still want to argue? The scenario was laid out in the OP. Do you want to finish around where we did last year and have an incredibly slim chance of winning the lottery or picking around 12 again or making the playoffs. If the team remains the same and makes the playoffs Ill glady take drafting a few spots lower to get playoff experience over less than 5% odds at a lottery win

 

[BB88]

You can get a top 5 pick without being one of the 5 worst team in the league. Not that it's likely, and definitely not likely for us, but it's possible.

The odds for that are extremely low.
& there’s some all time bad tanking teams in the league next year so just purely finishing top5 would need a miracle.

I’d much rather focus on building winning culture and stability what this team needs the most.

Winning cures a lot of things, nobody respecred the Hurricanes or Panthers few years ago, now people are willing to take less to go there and compete for a Cup.

Give me that over underachieving season

 

[DarkandStormy]

We haven't seen a playoff game for 6 years. Just think about that. There can't be many current teams with that kind of futility.

Of course I'd rather see some playoff games. Plus, it would be good experience for future years for a young squad. At some point these players need to taste big games and the postseason. All they've become accustomed to is losing. That's a bad habit which is hard to kick.

Buffalo hasn't been to the playoffs since 2011 and hasn't gotten out of the first rounds since 2007.
The Coyotes - outside of making The Bubble playoffs - hasn't been to the postseason since 2012.
The Blackhawks are about to go on a similar run, imo (The Bubble in 2020, last postseason appearance in 2017, last out of the first round in 2015).
The Devils have been to the postseason once (first round exit, 2018) in the last 11 seasons.
The Senators haven't seen a playoff game in six years.
The Ducks last appeared in the playoffs in 2018 (swept in the first round).

 

[Xoggz22]

Preferring a lottery pick this year is *not* the same as tanking or rooting for suck.

It's as simple as saying 1) JG is not going to give us 19 points in the standings and 2) we were on a rebuild path anyway.

The signing of JG hasn't changed the trajectory of the flight, only its duration.

This is not to really reply to your post but you brought up a point that I'm not sure many (any?) haven't mentioned yet... Point 1... Last year was an anomaly... JG will not have to get us 19 points. The likelihood of every team in the East being 100pt or better AGAIN, is highly unlikely. The balance was clearly shifted last year. The improvements alone from the bottom half of the East will reduce the points from the top half of the east. Playoff position likely comes back to the ~94pt range for the 8 seed. Might not seem like much but the gap will not be 19 points this year. Now does that mean Columbus is the 8 seed? Who knows but I, for one, would be very disappointed if they were not improved from the 81 points last year. I can absolutely see the CBJ being 5 wins better than last year. 91 won't get them in but some of the losses could be OT this year vs regulation.

Going to be interesting but I guess my long winded point is the disparity from top to bottom will be dramatically different this coming season. Especially in the Metro. I only see Carolina and the Rangers as expected playoff teams. The other 6 could be a crap shoot for a myriad of reasons.

 

[LoneFunyan]

So you dont disagree with most people but still want to argue? The scenario was laid out in the OP. Do you want to finish around where we did last year and have an incredibly slim chance of winning the lottery or picking around 12 again or making the playoffs. If the team remains the same and makes the playoffs Ill glady take drafting a few spots lower to get playoff experience over less than 5% odds at a lottery win

That argument morphed into "anyone who doesn't vote for a first round playoff exit must therefore be voting for tanking" even though, as you point out, that's not what the question was.

 

[LoneFunyan]

The odds for that are extremely low.
& there’s some all time bad tanking teams in the league next year so just purely finishing top5 would need a miracle.

I’d much rather focus on building winning culture and stability what this team needs the most.

Winning cures a lot of things, nobody respecred the Hurricanes or Panthers few years ago, now people are willing to take less to go there and compete for a Cup.

Give me that over underachieving season

How does one build a winning culture? Is it simply by winning or is there more to it than that?

 

[LoneFunyan]

This is not to really reply to your post but you brought up a point that I'm not sure many (any?) haven't mentioned yet... Point 1... Last year was an anomaly... JG will not have to get us 19 points. The likelihood of every team in the East being 100pt or better AGAIN, is highly unlikely. The balance was clearly shifted last year. The improvements alone from the bottom half of the East will reduce the points from the top half of the east. Playoff position likely comes back to the ~94pt range for the 8 seed. Might not seem like much but the gap will not be 19 points this year. Now does that mean Columbus is the 8 seed? Who knows but I, for one, would be very disappointed if they were not improved from the 81 points last year. I can absolutely see the CBJ being 5 wins better than last year. 91 won't get them in but some of the losses could be OT this year vs regulation.

Going to be interesting but I guess my long winded point is the disparity from top to bottom will be dramatically different this coming season. Especially in the Metro. I only see Carolina and the Rangers as expected playoff teams. The other 6 could be a crap shoot for a myriad of reasons.

Still and all, that's a 13 point bump in terms of the 94 point norm.

I don't think we can expect 1 player to create that kind of bump. And then you add in Blankenburg and Marchenko as noobs and the likely loss of Nyquist. Do we have quality goaltending? Is Boone going to be what he was last year, or what he has been most other years?

Personally, I think we over-achieved last year as it was.

 

[majormajor]

How does one build a winning culture? Is it simply by winning or is there more to it than that?

I think it is a learning process and actually winning is a necessary reward for it. One big thing is that the players have to be able to communicate and hold each other accountable, to raise the standards for each other. If you do that and get rewarded with wins it's a good feeling and reinforces those good steps. Losing teams get used to not everyone pulling together, they let bad habits linger, they lack confidence in each other to make the right play which leads to more individualistic play, etc...

One example is the Bruins about thirteen years ago now - my rough recollection of it is that they were a young team coming off a decent season but got nowhere in the playoffs. They held a group meeting and decided to stop being so gentle with each other, to raise the bar. It was an inflection point that they often mentioned when they won their cup a year or two later.

Edit: As an aside - people often tell me that I'm too critical of players like Laine and Boqvist. On a personal level I totally understand that not every athlete is going to be well rounded. They don't all have the same gifts or the same experiences. But I think it does make it harder for players to collectively raise the bar when the team is built around players that have significant weaknesses or inconsistent workrates.

 

[BB88]

How does one build a winning culture? Is it simply by winning or is there more to it than that?

Winning and building a top tier organization from to bottom.
Winning of course plays a big part in it but as well what happens off the ice, having the right vets in place, treating your own players well(player support), having a healthy development program in place and so on.

Charas arrival to Boston was that for Boston, he set a new tone and demand level for Boston players.
He brought credibility to the team, nobody worked harder off the ice than him(insane pre season tests) and he put his body on the line in every single game and eveyone respected the hell out of the man.
That’s why Boston has been able to be so good for so long, every one of Marchand, Bergeron& Pasta left money on the table, Rask was ready to come back last year for league min.

& look at Justin Williams going back to Carolina few years ago and the team taking off and how respected that team& management is today vs 3-4 years ago.

So its not just about winning, but having the right vets, having a strong management group and the right owners as well. You can’t have owners too involved with the decisions