Where Would Matthews Rank on His Team's Depth Chart if Spezza, Tavares, Thornton Were at Their Peaks

If all four were at their best currently, where would Matthews slot in on the C depth chart?


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Dekes For Days

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So I'm sure some remember this tidbit from earlier in the thread:
Hockey Outsider said:
Let's look at the correlation coefficient. That number tells you the strength of the linear relationship between two sets of data. It's scaled from +1.0 (a perfect, positive relationship) to -1.0 (a perfect, negative relationship). A number around 0 means there's no meaningful relationship. There's no hard and fast rule as to what's considered a "strong enough" result to say there's definitely a link, but usually you'd like to see at least +0.7.
I was curious, so I went and looked at the top 6000 player seasons in PP TOI in the cap era, to look at the correlation coefficient of PP Points vs. PP Time On Ice.

The correlation coefficient was: +0.92

So by your own definition, there is a very strong positive relationship, and as PP TOI rises, PP production rises very similarly.
 
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psycat

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Thornton

Tavares
Matthews/Spezza

Voted 3rd just to offset nostalgia bias, but really im fine with any order as long as Thornton is #1.
 

Hockey Outsider

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So I'm sure some remember this tidbit from earlier in the thread:

I was curious, so I went and looked at the top 6000 player seasons in PP TOI in the cap era, to look at the correlation coefficient of PP Points vs. PP Time On Ice.

The correlation coefficient was: +0.92

So by your own definition, there is a very strong positive relationship, and as PP TOI rises, PP production rises very similarly.

If you're looking at a large set of data (ie 6,000 player-seasons), I would definitely expect to see a positive correlation - but not for the reason you think.

Look at the players who got the most PP TOI in a single season since the lockout - Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Crosby, Malkin, Gonchar, a few seasons of Jagr and Sakic, etc. These are/were some of greatest offensive talents in the NHL. It should be obvious why they received a lot of PP ice time, and why they produce a lot of points on the man advtange.

The player with the 6,000th most PP TOI post-lockout is Peter Harrold, during his 2013 campaign. He played less than 38 minutes on the powerplay that year. The players immediately above him in PP TOI are luminaries like Darren Haydar, Juuso Riikola, Alex Chiasson and penalty killer PJ Axelsson. Right after him are more snipers like Chris Bourque, Derek Meech, Drake Batherson, and another PK'er in Wes Walz.

Effectively, you're comparing Jagr/Ovechkin/Crosby (at the high end of PP ice time and production) and a bunch of players you've probably never even heard of (at the low end of PP ice time and production). Obviously, there will be a correlation. If I understand you correctly, you're presenting this as evidence that Jagr/Ovechkin/Crosby scored more on the PP than Peter Harrold, Darren Haydar, Juuso Riikola as a result of getting more ice time. I would argue that they scored more on the PP because they're much better hockey players.

Why am I dismissing this data, and not the correlational data I presented before? The difference between the two is obvious. The data I presented previously was an apples to apples comparison - it was comparing Auston Matthews to Auston Matthews. The problem with the data presented here is you're comparing Jagr/Ovechkin/Crosby/etc to Harrold/Haydar/Riikola/etc, and drawing a conclusion from that. Instead of isolating the two variables that we're talking about (ice time vs production), you've instead introduced thousands of other variables (the ability of each of these players). (This is something of a simplification as the data I presented combined all four of Matthews' seasons into one, at he's clearly a better player at age 22 than he was at 19 - but the same general trend exists even if you look at each year in isolation).

A much better way to approach this (assuming you want to look at a large set of data) would be to get paired data (ie Jagr 2006 season and Jagr 2007). Look at the player's PP ice time and PP production in Year N. Then look at the percentage change in his production (the dependent variable) in Year N+1, and the percentage change in his ice time that year (independent variable). Calculate the correlation on that. This approach makes sense because, again, it's an apples-to-apples comparison. You're comparing each player against himself, one year down the road. You don't introduce noise by comparing Jaromir Jagr to Peter Harrold. (Of course, there are other factors that could influence the results rather than only ice time - aging, injuries, quality of linemates, etc - but over a sample size of hundreds or thousands of paired player-seasons, the likelihood of this having a material impact would be remote). It would probably take me 3-4 hours to do that analysis - I may have time in the second half of December, but likely not before.

For the record, I agree that, as a general rule, players will score more when given more ice time. That's obvious. But I disagree that this is a simple linear relationship (ie doubling ice time will double production) for the reasons that numerous people in this thread have already explained.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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For the record, I agree that, as a general rule, players will score more when given more ice time. That's obvious. But I disagree that this is a simple linear relationship (ie doubling ice time will double production) for the reasons that numerous people in this thread have already explained.

First off, great overall post.

As to the bolded, this is EXACTLY what my argument has been forever on this topic. Raw production may improve, where a player getting 1 extra minute of ice time (or PP time) may get a handful of extra (raw) points over an 82 game schedule. But the idea that the RATES will remain the same, and thus, apply those rates to how much raw totals they'll get based on the assumption a player producing 2.5 P/60 in 18 minutes per night will automatically still produce 2.5 P/60 getting 21 minutes per night, is where I have the issue.
 
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Varan

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Treat advanced stats like shooting percentage. More shots = lower %. Your efficiency goes down and so do your advanced metrics. You cannot extrapolate rates onto different amounts of shots and believe the results (shooting %) will be the same.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Treat advanced stats like shooting percentage. More shots = lower %. Your efficiency goes down and so do your advanced metrics. You cannot extrapolate rates onto different amounts of shots and believe the results (shooting %) will be the same.

Technically, there could be situations where the rates go up. There could be situations where the rates remain the same. There could be situations where the rates go down.

The issue isn't the idea that it's impossible a player's P/60 will go up with increased ice time, the issue is that some folks argue that it's almost automatic to either stay the same or go up. That's simply not the case.
 
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Dekes For Days

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Look at the players who got the most PP TOI in a single season since the lockout - Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Crosby, Malkin, Gonchar, a few seasons of Jagr and Sakic, etc. These are/were some of greatest offensive talents in the NHL. It should be obvious why they received a lot of PP ice time, and why they produce a lot of points on the man advtange.
Yes, there are other factors that influence PP points, which is why we don't have a 100% perfect correlation. The fact remains that by your own definition, there is a very strong positive relationship, and as PP TOI rises, PP production rises very similarly.

Look at the top 10 player seasons in PP points since the lockout. Every single one of them was from 2005-2006 or 2006-2007. Almost 80% of the top-50 in PP points took place between 2005-2008. Do you believe that all of the "greatest offensive talents" existed solely for that few year period? It should be obvious that there is a lot more entering into raw PP production than player quality, and based on the correlation we see, along with basic common sense, PP TOI is quite clearly the biggest impacting factor.

You suggest that these offensive talents will just automatically get similar PP time, but according to pretty much everything, Matthews is a very elite PP player. What player quality-based justification is there to give him half the time of, for example, Shane Doan?
Effectively, you're comparing Jagr/Ovechkin/Crosby (at the high end of PP ice time and production) and a bunch of players you've probably never even heard of (at the low end of PP ice time and production). Obviously, there will be a correlation.
Except we're not just comparing the ultimate extremes on each end. We are comparing thousands of similar players in the middle. Even if we take out the most extreme 1000 seasons on each end, we get a correlation coefficient well over 0.7. Cut out the bottom half? Still well over 0.7. Pretty much any configuration, the correlation coefficient is still well over 0.7.
Why am I dismissing this data, and not the correlational data I presented before? The difference between the two is obvious. The data I presented previously was an apples to apples comparison - it was comparing Auston Matthews to Auston Matthews.
A much better way to approach this would be to get paired data (ie Jagr 2006 season and Jagr 2007). Look at the player's PP ice time and PP production in Year N. Then look at the percentage change in his production (the dependent variable) in Year N+1, and the percentage change in his ice time that year (independent variable). Calculate the correlation on that. This approach makes sense because, again, it's an apples-to-apples comparison. You're comparing each player against himself, one year down the road.
You are dismissing this data and not your own, solely because it doesn't fit your viewpoint. What happened to "name-dropping a couple of factors, when you haven't demonstrated how or even if they impact the data, isn't even a serious response"? Funny how quickly your stance changed.

The data you presented was not an apples to apples comparison, and it was way more problematic. You lessen the impact of the player quality factor, but introduce multiple other factors. You were grouping unrelated external factors and then attributing the result you got from a small sample to TOI differences, with no evidence, and despite your claim not making logical sense.

For the record, if we do the same thing with Matthews' seasons, the correlation coefficient between PP points and PP TOI for Matthews is 0.98.
For the record, I agree that, as a general rule, players will score more when given more ice time. That's obvious. But I disagree that this is a simple linear relationship
Except the question isn't really whether it's a 100% perfect linear relationship. The question is if PP points and PP TOI are closer to a linear relationship than no relationship (which raw points counts it as). Evidence points to yes, and thus, it is better to utilize per-60 metrics than raw metrics.
 
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Dekes For Days

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Technically, there could be situations where the rates go up. There could be situations where the rates remain the same. There could be situations where the rates go down. The issue isn't the idea that it's impossible a player's P/60 will go up with increased ice time, the issue is that some folks argue that it's almost automatic to either stay the same or go up. That's simply not the case.
I assume you dismiss and vehemently argue against the use of per-game metrics then?
 

nobody

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How are so many people ranking Spezza over Tavares for peak!!??

Tavares has two Hart nominations to Spezza’s zero. Tavares has one top 3 point finish to Spezza’s zero. Both have two top 10 point finishes.

Just because Spezza put up higher raw point totals people seem to be overrating how good he was. He put up the insane numbers in the years immediately post lockout when scoring was through the roof.
This.

JT not getting much love because his numbers don't pop off the chart. But when you look at Spezza's big numbers and see that Dany Heatley and Danny Alfredsson were also putting up 90+ points in those years it makes the feat look a little less impressive since JT had absolutely zero quality of support comparatively. Hence why he was nominated for the hart a couple of times while not having eye popping numbers.
 
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nobody

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Off topic.

Matthews on Thornton's wing and JT on Spezza's wing during their primes would be a treat to watch. Absolute stud play makers with elite superstar goal scorers.
 

Rob Brown

Way She Goes
Dec 17, 2009
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Thornton

Tavares
Matthews/Spezza

Voted 3rd just to offset nostalgia bias, but really im fine with any order as long as Thornton is #1.
Matthews is better than Tavares now and Tavares at his peak, IMO.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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I assume you dismiss and vehemently argue against the use of per-game metrics then?

What does this have to do with the part of my post you quoted?

I'm not you. I don't "dismiss" things entirely if they don't fall in perfect line with what I'm arguing. I take things on a case by case basis, and see if people present evidence that makes sense. In some cases, comparing players by their rate totals makes sense. In some cases, comparing what they've done on a game to game basis makes sense. In some cases, comparing their raw totals makes sense. In some cases, a combination of all three makes sense. It's not a one size fits all like you seem to make it out to be.

That's the problem. Everything's black and white with you. Either you agree that a methodology works in 100% of the cases, in 100% of any discussion, or you don't.
 
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Golden_Jet

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What does this have to do with the part of my post you quoted?

I'm not you. I don't "dismiss" things entirely if they don't fall in perfect line with what I'm arguing. I take things on a case by case basis, and see if people present evidence that makes sense. In some cases, comparing players by their rate totals makes sense. In some cases, comparing what they've done on a game to game basis makes sense. In some cases, comparing their raw totals makes sense. In some cases, a combination of all three makes sense. It's not a one size fits all like you seem to make it out to be.

That's the problem. Everything's black and white with you. Either you agree that a methodology works in 100% of the cases, in 100% of any discussion, or you don't.

Well said.
 

Varan

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What does this have to do with the part of my post you quoted?

I'm not you. I don't "dismiss" things entirely if they don't fall in perfect line with what I'm arguing. I take things on a case by case basis, and see if people present evidence that makes sense. In some cases, comparing players by their rate totals makes sense. In some cases, comparing what they've done on a game to game basis makes sense. In some cases, comparing their raw totals makes sense. In some cases, a combination of all three makes sense. It's not a one size fits all like you seem to make it out to be.

That's the problem. Everything's black and white with you. Either you agree that a methodology works in 100% of the cases, in 100% of any discussion, or you don't.
Good post
 

x Tame Impala

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/60 stats should be considered almost irrelevant to hockey analysis, somewhere on the same level as +/-

The few times I’ve seen it be useful is when talking about bottom 6 players or 3rd pairing Dmen who are outperforming their roles in the lineup. And in many cases can be explained away by easier matchups and less TOI. Production in the NHL isn’t linear.

Can’t believe you all took the DfD bait and argued this crap for over 8 pages. If Matthews was pacing to be a better career goal scorer than Ovechkin...we wouldn’t need to debate it. It would be incredibly apparent, and it’s not. He’s not even better than Ovie now! :laugh:
 

Dekes For Days

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What does this have to do with the part of my post you quoted?
Pretty much all of your arguments against per-60 metrics apply to per-game metrics, yet you use per-game metrics constantly.
I'm not you. I don't "dismiss" things entirely if they don't fall in perfect line with what I'm arguing.
Once again, your faulty assumptions about what I do are not what I do. In actuality, dismissing things is exactly what you have done. You have completely dismissed the value of per-60 metrics within discussions.
I take things on a case by case basis, and see if people present evidence that makes sense.
Except when logical evidence was presented to you, and I gave you a nice, detailed, easy-to-understand explanation addressing your concerns, you dismissed it, and just started spreading untrue claims about me, personally.
In some cases, comparing players by their rate totals makes sense. In some cases, comparing what they've done on a game to game basis makes sense. In some cases, comparing their raw totals makes sense. In some cases, a combination of all three makes sense.
That sounds an awful lot like flip-flopping to suit a narrative... I've never seen you utilize per-60 metrics. What is your criteria for when each form should be looked at?
That's the problem. Everything's black and white with you. Either you agree that a methodology works in 100% of the cases, in 100% of any discussion, or you don't.
Everything is not black and white with me. In fact, the exact opposite. Context is crucial to any discussion, and I've said that constantly. I consistently discuss that context within these discussions. That said, why would I start by utilizing less accurate metrics? Everybody else is already posting raw and per-game stats constantly (it's not like they aren't part of these discussions), so why would I bring the same thing as everybody else to a discussion?
 
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Tad Mikowsky

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Pretty much all of your arguments against per-60 metrics apply to per-game metrics, yet you use per-game metrics constantly.

Once again, your faulty assumptions about what I do are not what I do. In actuality, dismissing things is exactly what you have done. You have completely dismissed the value of per-60 metrics within discussions.

Except when logical evidence was presented to you, and I gave you a nice, detailed, easy-to-understand explanation addressing your concerns, you dismissed it, and just started spreading untrue claims about me, personally.

That sounds an awful lot like flip-flopping to suit a narrative... I've never seen you utilize per-60 metrics. What is your criteria for when each form should be looked at?

Everything is not black and white with me. In fact, the exact opposite. Context is crucial to any discussion, and I've said that constantly. I consistently discuss that context within these discussions. That said, why would I start by utilizing less accurate metrics? Everybody else is already posting raw and per-game stats constantly (it's not like they aren't part of these discussions), so why would I bring the same thing as everybody else to a discussion?

No, it is.

You cherry pick whatever stat works best for your Leafs player.
 

Dekes For Days

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You cherry pick whatever stat works best for your Leafs player.
That is not true. It's hilarious that one second I'm supposedly picking and choosing whatever works for my player, and the next, I'm supposedly always only looking at exclusively one thing. The reality is, neither are true. I look at a wide range of statistics. The reason I often post per-60 metrics are because, while most other statistics are widely posted, per-60 metrics are often completely forgotten and ignored, even though they have shown to be a more accurate representation of ability.

You, on the other hand, are literally cherry picking the one stat (raw PP points) that makes Matthews look worse than he is, while ignoring and dismissing all other stats, context, and evidence that shows Matthews to be an elite PP player, and explains why you get the result you do in that one stat in that one game state.
 
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authentic

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This.

JT not getting much love because his numbers don't pop off the chart. But when you look at Spezza's big numbers and see that Dany Heatley and Danny Alfredsson were also putting up 90+ points in those years it makes the feat look a little less impressive since JT had absolutely zero quality of support comparatively. Hence why he was nominated for the hart a couple of times while not having eye popping numbers.

It also doesn't help that Tavares had his offensive peak during the lowest scoring period for star players since expansion, and that has far more to do with the state of the league at the time than it does any low period in overall or top end talent.
 

authentic

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/60 stats should be considered almost irrelevant to hockey analysis, somewhere on the same level as +/-

The few times I’ve seen it be useful is when talking about bottom 6 players or 3rd pairing Dmen who are outperforming their roles in the lineup. And in many cases can be explained away by easier matchups and less TOI. Production in the NHL isn’t linear.

Can’t believe you all took the DfD bait and argued this crap for over 8 pages. If Matthews was pacing to be a better career goal scorer than Ovechkin...we wouldn’t need to debate it. It would be incredibly apparent, and it’s not. He’s not even better than Ovie now! :laugh:

To be fair he literally has the same goals per game as Ovechkin since entering the league and finished higher in goals (tied for 2nd) in his 19 year old rookie season than Ovechkin did in his 20 year old rookie season (3rd). Not saying he is or will be as good of a goal scorer as Ovechkin, just making the point that it's not quite as far fetched as everyone seems to believe.
 

Varan

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You, on the other hand, are literally cherry picking the one stat (raw PP points) that makes Matthews look worse than he is, while ignoring and dismissing all other stats, context, and evidence that shows Matthews to be an elite PP player, and explains why you get the result you do in that one stat in that one game state.
Do you care more about results or hypotheticals? What would you want at the end of the day?

I'm not even trying to attack you, I just want to know. The reason there are 10+ posters continuously arguing against you over and over again is that they are looking at what actually happens (And what could happen) while taking into account other factors such as ice-time/PP units/production and try to paint a realistic picture, while you seem to only exclusively look at what would happen if all things were equal.

Hypotheticals will almost always overrate anything. People can play the "what if" game all day.
 
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Golden_Jet

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To be fair he literally has the same goals per game as Ovechkin since entering the league and finished higher in goals (tied for 2nd) in his 19 year old rookie season than Ovechkin did in his 20 year old rookie season (3rd). Not saying he is or will be as good of a goal scorer as Ovechkin, just making the point that it's not quite as far fetched as everyone seems to believe.

OV sixth all time in goals per game, JT is 76th, plus OV is about 5 years older and still going strong.
NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Goals Per Game | Hockey-Reference.com
 

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