Where does Shanny rank all time in terms of power forwards?

[Hardyvan123]

A good list of power forwards yet I wonder why Bobby Hull is usually left off these lists. He could certainly score goals and play a physical game. Didn't fight often but was willing to drop the gloves when necessary. Fought tough guys like John ferguson & Reg Fleming. Certainly didn't pick his spots. A good example of his physical play was laying the body on Salming during the 76 Canada cup.

Edit: Rocket Richard would also fit the criteria for PF.

The definition of power forward is simply too subjective to have very much meaning in this thread IMO if Howe is ranked 3rd by one guy and now Rocket and Hull are being included as well? what's next Forsberg and Bobby Clarke (okay there aren't goal scorers but the criteria is getting really open now isn't it?)

 

[begbeee]

I see all your points, but I would take Shanahan over Iginla anyway.

Another interesting question, which is borned from this thread:
Could any team be successful if it's build around power-forward? There are some successful examples like Messier or Howe, but they are PFs with issues. Is PF only a "missing piece" breed, which helps, but isn't necessary for winning? Iginla or Ovechkin are examples of this fact.

 

[pappyline]

The definition of power forward is simply too subjective to have very much meaning in this thread IMO if Howe is ranked 3rd by one guy and now Rocket and Hull are being included as well? what's next Forsberg and Bobby Clarke (okay there aren't goal scorers but the criteria is getting really open now isn't it?)

According to the definition of PF that is being thrown around in this thread then the Rocket & Bobby Hull certainly qualify. The problem is that there is no clear definition of "power forward". It is one of those terms like "pure goal scorer" that keeps getting thrown out there without being clearly defined.

 

[arrbez]

I see all your points, but I would take Shanahan over Iginla anyway.

Another interesting question, which is borned from this thread:
Could any team be successful if it's build around power-forward? There are some successful examples like Messier or Howe, but they are PFs with issues. Is PF only a "missing piece" breed, which helps, but isn't necessary for winning? Iginla or Ovechkin are examples of this fact.

That's an interesting question. Most power forwards are goal-first wingers, and many play a style that has them missing a lot of games (Shanahan being among the exceptions to that rule).

Shanahan is universally regarded as a lock for the Hall, while there are lots of people who don't feel the same way about guys like Sundin or Modano. To me, they're all very similar in terms of impact. If I had a good team that needed to get over the top, I'd pick Shanahan. If I was starting a team from scratch, he'd be my 3rd choice.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

The best players rise above their peers. They need no excuses.

Lindros won his Hart against the likes of Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Bourque, Chelios, Hasek, Brodeur, Leetch, et al. (along with 4 other top-10 finishes in Hart Trophy voting.)

Messier won his Hart(s) against the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Borque, Chelios, Coffey, Roy, Hasek, et al.

To be fair, it was a 40 games season. Doesn't really count. It's like half a hart trophy.

Anyways I notice nobody mentioned Forsberg in this thread. He's definitely up there.

 

[begbeee]

Anyways I notice nobody mentioned Forsberg in this thread. He's definitely up there.

No, he is not. And please, dont bring Peter Forsberg #21 Tribute Video as a proof again.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

No, he is not. And please, dont bring Peter Forsberg #21 Tribute Video as a proof again.

How is he not a powerforward. Only thing that he didn't do was fight or score a lot of goals. He hits, took hits, was tough as nails. He also dived a lot but that shuoldn't have much of an impact.

 

[begbeee]

How is he not a powerforward. Only thing that he didn't do was fight or score a lot of goals. He hits, took hits, was tough as nails. He also dived a lot but that shuoldn't have much of an impact.

Better said, only thing he did, what power forwards do, was hitting.
He didnt fight, didnt score so I suppose Joe Thornton is up there, too...

Peter Forsberg was great player, he will have nice show today in Denver, but I am really tired of building "Cult Of Peter Forsberg". I really expect that in few years some people will try to sell me he was one of the best goalscorers in history, he just put emphasiz on playmaking...

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

Well I don't understand why being a great goalscorer is part of the criteria.

 

[TasteofFlames]

Well I don't understand why being a great goalscorer is part of the criteria.

Because power forwards are a subclass of goal scoring forwards, like snipers.

 

[Preisst*]

How is he not a powerforward. Only thing that he didn't do was fight or score a lot of goals. He hits, took hits, was tough as nails. He also dived a lot but that shuoldn't have much of an impact.

In my mind the fact that Forsberg was a talented and notorious diver dictates that he is actually the antithesis of a power forward.

Surprised no one has mentioned Wendel Clark so far.

 

[begbeee]

Well I don't understand why being a great goalscorer is part of the criteria.

Because everyone from the mentioned group was EDIT: good goalscorer and definition of powerforward Cam Neely is member of (unofficial) "50 in 50" , Shanahan, Roberts, Stevens, Tkachuk, Messier etc. had 50 goals campaign..

I am going to flip the coin again: does it mean that giving and taking hits is enough for being a power forward?

 

[TasteofFlames]

I thought this was settled in the "Is Forsberg a power center" thread. Forsberg played a powerful game, but he wasn't a "power forward," and really, what does it matter if Forsberg's game doesn't match the archetype. Forsberg was an incredible, unique player, and, to me, that's far more interesting and commendable than fitting some arbitrary set of descriptors.

 

[jkrx]

In my mind the fact that Forsberg was a talented and notorious diver dictates that he is actually the antithesis of a power forward.

Surprised no one has mentioned Wendel Clark so far.

Forsberg is a notorious diver? Wow, talk about making a chicken out of a feather.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

Forsberg is a notorious diver? Wow, talk about making a chicken out of a feather.

They didn't call him floppa for nothing.

 

[Slapshooter]

Surprised no one has mentioned Wendel Clark so far.

He could have been one of the best PF's, but mainly because of the health problems he had only a few seasons when you could consider him as an elite PF.

I would still put Wendel Clark as a PF ahead of the likes of Keith Primeau and Bill Guerin. Much like Tocchet, Clark was a terrific fighter, although Wendel had some reputation of starting fights by jumping on people. Clark also possessed one of the hardest wrist shots I've seen.

 

[slh2099]

The moment you put Lindros and Neely ahead of Howe you made your Mistake.. Im sorry but neither of them belong ahead of him or even in the same sentence. Howe is #1 plain and simple, always will be.

 

[Slapshooter]

The moment you put Lindros and Neely ahead of Howe you made your Mistake.. Im sorry but neither of them belong ahead of him or even in the same sentence. Howe is #1 plain and simple, always will be.

As an overall player Howe was surely better, but since I did not see him in action and put him there due to his reputation only, I could left Howe from the list altogether. I doubt Howe was physically more dominating than Lindros or Neely, yet alone so much better as a PF that "he don't belong in the same sentence".

This is Shanahan -thread, but feel free to post your own top-10 or top-5 power forwards.

 

[jkrx]

As an overall player Howe was surely better, but since I did not see him in action and put him there due to his reputation only, I could left Howe from the list altogether. I doubt Howe was physically more dominating than Lindros or Neely, yet alone so much better as a PF that "he don't belong in the same sentence".

This is Shanahan -thread, but feel free to post your own top-10 or top-5 power forwards.

You doubt that? Then you know nothing about Howe at all. I might come back and explain later but I dont have the time right now to educate.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I see all your points, but I would take Shanahan over Iginla anyway.

Another interesting question, which is borned from this thread:
Could any team be successful if it's build around power-forward? There are some successful examples like Messier or Howe, but they are PFs with issues. Is PF only a "missing piece" breed, which helps, but isn't necessary for winning? Iginla or Ovechkin are examples of this fact.

i don't think i'd lump iginla with ovechkin here. iginla was the best skater and leader of a team that would have won the stanley cup if the refs had noticed that martin gelinas had scored in game six.

also, i'm not convinced that ovechkin counts as a power forward. sure, he's big and strong, he hits, and he has a great wrist shot, but he doesn't physically dominate you down low the way shanahan, tkachuk, or iginla do/did. but my definition is narrower than some others.

That's an interesting question. Most power forwards are goal-first wingers, and many play a style that has them missing a lot of games (Shanahan being among the exceptions to that rule).

Shanahan is universally regarded as a lock for the Hall, while there are lots of people who don't feel the same way about guys like Sundin or Modano. To me, they're all very similar in terms of impact. If I had a good team that needed to get over the top, I'd pick Shanahan. If I was starting a team from scratch, he'd be my 3rd choice.

yeah, i agree with that last point. shanahan would never have worked with hartford. what makes iginla special was that he was one of the rare power forwards that could create or instigate his own offense-- that ability to create was what made bertuzzi such a tantalizing talent if he'd had his head screwed on straight-- and iginla could be the offensive leader of a contending team. you could arguably say neely also had that ability, but shanahan was the best of power wingers who couldn't be your best forward if you wanted to win, with peak stevens and slightly ahead of tkachuk at the very top, guys like tocchet, wendel, roberts, guerin, and down to excellent second liners like kevin dineen or a guy like ryane clowe today. all of these guys could shoot the puck through the net, and they could create mismatches in front of the net or in the corners, but they were also all very reliant on playmakers or great PP quarterbacks to get the puck where it needed to go.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As an overall player Howe was surely better, but since I did not see him in action and put him there due to his reputation only, I could left Howe from the list altogether. I doubt Howe was physically more dominating than Lindros or Neely, yet alone so much better as a PF that "he don't belong in the same sentence".

This is Shanahan -thread, but feel free to post your own top-10 or top-5 power forwards.

Howe was the most physically dominant player of his era, while being much better offensively than Lindros or Neely. So if you want to include "all eras" then Howe has to be ranked comfortably ahead.

Of course, the term "power forward" was created sometime during the 1980s for a specific type of player, so there's nothing wrong with only including players who played since the term was created.

 

[Slapshooter]

Of course, the term "power forward" was created sometime during the 1980s for a specific type of player, so there's nothing wrong with only including players who played since the term was created.

I know and that's why I was not so comfortable to include Howe in a first place, but did it only because of his legendary reputation in toughness.

These Cam Neely -type power forwards were more a thing of the (late) 80's and 90's. Except for Howe and Iginla, my top-10 was from that era.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Power forward:

power forward is a loosely applied characterization of a forward who is big and strong, equally capable of playing physically or scoring goals and would most likely have high totals in both points and penalties. It is usually used in reference to a forward who is physically large, with the toughness to dig the puck out of the corners, possesses offensive instincts, has mobility, puck-handling skills, may be difficult to knock off the puck and willingly engage in fights when they feel it's required. Possessing both physical size and offensive ability, power forwards are also often referred to as the 'complete' hockey player.

As you see, "willing to engage in fights when they feel its required", not "They fight often and everyone". Power Forwards dont have to fight to be power forwards.

As for Forsberg, he isn't a PF in the traditional meaning of the term, but i would describe him as a "power forward type" of player. I think a PF has many more meanings than it did in the 80s, where almost all the PFs were high goal scoring forwards who were big and physical. I feel guys like Neely, Iginla, Howe, Shanahan, Kerr, Tkachuk, and LeClair are a different breed of PFS than Messier, Stevens, Lindros, Howe, Gillies, and Ovechkin. Then there are guys like Getzlaf, Thornton, Forsberg, Clowe, Richards, and Doan.

 

[Preisst*]

Forsberg is a notorious diver? Wow, talk about making a chicken out of a feather.

Try to keep up. Even the staunchest Forsberg defenders/fans recognize he was a notorious diver. I guess you never had the chance to watch him play which is to bad as he was a pretty fine player. He was also a hugh diver. Talk about making a feather out of a chicken.

I wouldn't really call Foppa, er Forsberg, a Power Forward but I would certainly say he was one of the grittiest playmakers there ever was.

He could have been one of the best PF's, but mainly because of the health problems he had only a few seasons when you could consider him as an elite PF.

I would still put Wendel Clark as a PF ahead of the likes of Keith Primeau and Bill Guerin. Much like Tocchet, Clark was a terrific fighter, although Wendel had some reputation of starting fights by jumping on people. Clark also possessed one of the hardest wrist shots I've seen.

Yea he did have a lot of injuries which were generally a result of the style of play he played. He may have gotten the jump on ppull a few times but he was wickedly tough, as you said one of the hardest wrist shots ever and he played a highly truculent game.