Where does Shanny rank all time in terms of power forwards?

[Puckgenius*]

He was a beast in his prime even going back to his hartford days. Arguably the best one timer ever after brett hull. He will obviously be remembered as a wing, i didnt like him at all as a rangers.

Click to read more...

 

[begbeee]

I have him high. Probably behind Neely, Lindros, Messier and Howe, if we count him. Better than Roberts, Stevens, Primeau or Tocchet.

 

[tony d]

I have him in my top 5. I've always said Shanahan was the missing piece to the puzzle in Detroit before they finally acquired him in 1996.

 

[Slapshooter]

I have him high. Probably behind Neely, Lindros, Messier and Howe, if we count him. Better than Roberts, Stevens, Primeau or Tocchet.

I have him in my top 5. I've always said Shanahan was the missing piece to the puzzle in Detroit before they finally acquired him in 1996.

The 5th seems about right place for Shanny. His career was better than of Lindros or Neely, but then again those two were the best power forwards ever at their peaks. Messier and Howe could be considered as a borderline cases for a true PF, but were simply too good to ignore. Tocchet and Stevens had similar peaks as Shanahan, but weaker careers. Roberts following them. Iginla might actually be the 7th best. Tkachuk should crack at the top 10.

My top-10 PF's out of the blue:

1. Lindros
2. Neely
3. Howe
4. Messier
5. Shanahan
6. Tocchet
7. Iginla
8. Stevens
9. Roberts
10.Tkachuk


Ranking power forwards is a very subjective thing, though. It all depends what counts more: overall scoring, goal scoring, hitting, intimidation, overall physical game or fighting.

A true power forward should be able to score goals and play physical game with the best of them. Also a willingness to drop the gloves against goons and enforcers if needed, which makes Messier a borderline case. IMO, Joe Thornton is a too medicore goal scorer to be considered as a true PF. Never hit a 40 goal mark and passed 30 only twice so far.

My personal favorites were Neely and Tocchet. Neely was the best combination of hitting and goal scoring, while Tocchet was likely the best fighter of those 10.

Shanahan was probably the most consistent of them as his goal scoring remained impressive even at the old age. During his younger days he would fight anybody. Not the most aggressive or hardest hitter, though.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

I have him #1 career wise post expansion (I don't consider Messier a power forward).

His peak isn't as high as some, but he has longevity, something very rare for power forwards.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Definitely Top 5

 

[Clown Baby*]

OT...

Serious question: Does anyone consider Bertuzzi and Tkachuk powerforwards, because to me their fight cards look a lot more like someone who spent the better part of their career agitating?

No Brashear mixed in there. No Belak. No Simon, or Probert. I know these guys aren't obligated to fight heavies, but I can't imagine going 1000 games and never once being faced with a situation where circumstances warrant stooping to the level of your opposition's goon. Even if it is only for one fight.

Howe, Messier, Lindros, Shanahan, Neely, Clark, and Tocchet all managed to justify their fights. Why didn't Bertuzzi and Tkachuk?

 

[BillyShoe1721]

This thread is severely lacking some Ted Lindsay. Howe is easily the best.

 

[Big Phil]

Howe and Messier are certainly power forwards. No question. The way they played the game is proof of that. Does anyone consider Charlie Conacher in this mix? He certainly is credited with being a power forward prior to the term being coined. If so, he is clearly ahead of Shanahan as a player.

I think Iginla is right on the tail of Shanny already. By the end of his career I think he'll bypass him. Iginla is a good and willing fighter, a good hitter, a sniper, has a hard shot, a good skater and a good leader. Plus he's fairly big and strong as an ox. I think if you did a Shanny vs. Iggy poll right now it would be awfully close.

 

[begbeee]

I think if you did a Shanny vs. Iggy poll right now it would be awfully close.

Shanny is the winner. Iginla lacks some rings on him. That would be a difference.

 

[Slapshooter]

This thread is severely lacking some Ted Lindsay. Howe is easily the best.

Ted Lindsay and Clark Gillies are probably as good choices as most of the names mentioned. They had their peaks in lower scoring era and with fewer games pers seasons, so 40 goal mark etc. requirements are unjustified for them.

A lot of pre-80's stars are missing due to fact that one cannot tell who is a true PF by stats alone. Gordie Howe is an exception as his fearsome reputation is widely known even by likes of me who never saw him play. A definition of power forward in hockey evolved relatively late with Cam Neely and remains as an unofficial term anyway.

 

[Slapshooter]

Serious question: Does anyone consider Bertuzzi and Tkachuk powerforwards, because to me their fight cards look a lot more like someone who spent the better part of their career agitating?

No Brashear mixed in there. No Belak. No Simon, or Probert. I know these guys aren't obligated to fight heavies, but I can't imagine going 1000 games and never once being faced with a situation where circumstances warrant stooping to the level of your opposition's goon. Even if it is only for one fight.

Howe, Messier, Lindros, Shanahan, Neely, Clark, and Tocchet all managed to justify their fights. Why didn't Bertuzzi and Tkachuk?

You have a point there, but not sure about Messier as he was a pretty much spot picker in regards to fighting. Had several battles with McSorley though, so may be that's enough. Tkachuk and Bertuzzi were definitely spot pickers.

It's all up to personal preference how much fighting counts if the player is impressive in other PF categories. Minimal requirement should be that PF fights more on a regular basis than just a few times. That's why Oveckin will never be considered a power forward.

 

[jkrx]

You have a point there, but not sure about Messier as he was a pretty much spot picker in regards to fighting. Had several battles with McSorley though, so may be that's enough. Tkachuk and Bertuzzi were definitely spot pickers.

It's all up to personal preference how much fighting counts if the player is impressive in other PF categories. Minimal requirement should be that PF fights more on a regular basis than just a few times. That's why Oveckin will never be considered a power forward.

Fights does not equal power forward. Most people who mix physical, kamikaze style of play with a good portion of talent is a power forward. Ovechkin is a power forward.

Edit: Why do you count Howe as a PF if your criteria is that you need to fight on a regular basis?

 

[Slapshooter]

Fights does not equal power forward. Most people who mix physical, kamikaze style of play with a good portion of talent is a power forward. Ovechkin is a power forward.

It does not equal the term, but fighting is part of being a true power forward. The European criteria of the term may be different due to cultural differences, but in NHL being a power forward means you fight your own fights if needed. Even against tough guys and goons. That's actually one of the key elements: A PF cannot be intimidated and he'll do his own enforcing.

However, since the PF term is not official and fighting is decreasing, it may be that sterilized criteria for the PF term is becoming more common. I don't consider AO as a true PF with his 4 career fights in 475 NHL games. I change my opinion if he fights more. He is a big star so he does not have to "goon it up". A few scraps a season against respectabe opponent will do. (Or beating someone so badly that others are scared of him. Then he don't have to fight at all. )

Edit: Why do you count Howe as a PF if your criteria is that you need to fight on a regular basis?

Due to his reputation only. Many old timers claim that Howe was the most feared player in the league by his fighting ability too, not only by his physical play and scoring skills. If that indeed was the case, it's irrelevant if he did not fight often. If somebody is too scared to fight a PF, then it's more like a bonus.


Messier and Lindros did not fight that often, and some consider them as spot pickers. But they were also superstar centers and franchise players who made other players better around them. For that kind of player it's more acceptable sometimes to avoid 5-minutes in a box and let the teams enforcer do the scrapping. But even then they have to show some character and fight their own battles here and there per each season. Messier and Lindros fought against a few heavy weights too. Lindros was actually a pretty good fighter.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Messier and Lindros did not fight that often, and some consider them as spot pickers. But they were also superstar centers and franchise players who made other players better around them. For that kind of player it's more acceptable sometimes to avoid 5-minutes in a box and let the teams enforcer do the scrapping. But even then they have to show some character and fight their own battles here and there per each season. Messier and Lindros fought against a few heavy weights too. Lindros was actually a pretty good fighter.

Before Lindros started getting the concussion problems (which came from getting clocked with his head dead, not from fighting), he was a fantastic fighter. Only man I've seen who beat Scott Stevens cleanly in a fight. (Of course Stevens "won" in the end...)

 

[Big Phil]

Shanny is the winner. Iginla lacks some rings on him. That would be a difference.

Shanahan has three rings to Iginla's zero, but it goes deeper than that. Was Shanahan a legendary playoff performer? He had 134 points in 184 games. That isn't bad, but you could have certainly expected more out of him.

That being said, if you really want to get to the nitty gritty of it should we even mention the Hart trophy voting record for Shanahan? It is downright ugly for a future HHOFer.

Shanahan's best finishes: 9th, 15th, 18th, 22nd

Iginla's best finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 12th, 12th, 15th

These were the only times Shanahan ever got Hart votes in his career. I would have narrowed it down to top 10 finishes, but that wouldn't tell the story very well.

Keep in mind, Shanahan was a player that fans and the media loved. If that's the case, then how could a player that everyone thinks is a lock cinch for the HHOF never have even come close to the Hart? Iginla has had some elite seasons, more than Shanahan has had. I don't think even when you put the Cups in his corner that he ends up being better than Iginla. Right now might be a possibility but there is still hockey to be played for Iginla.

 

[Slapshooter]

Iginla is a better overall player than Shanahan, but that does not make him necessarily the better power forward. Shanahan was stronger and tougher than Iginla. Shanny was as good goal scorer and a much better fighter than Iggy.

Just like Mark Messier was a better overall player than Cam Neely, but not better as a power forward.

Whether one has more SC rings or Heart nominations has IMO little relevance in this kind PF ranking. It's more about how good they were in their power game = scoring goals, hitting, battling in the front of the net, battling in corners, fighting and intimidating the opposition.

 

[Clown Baby*]

It does not equal the term, but fighting is part of being a true power forward. The European criteria of the term may be different due to cultural differences, but in NHL being a power forward means you fight your own fights if needed. Even against tough guys and goons. That's actually one of the key elements: A PF cannot be intimidated and he'll do his own enforcing.

However, since the PF term is not official and fighting is decreasing, it may be that sterilized criteria for the PF term is becoming more common. I don't consider AO as a true PF with his 4 career fights in 475 NHL games. I change my opinion if he fights more. He is a big star so he does not have to "goon it up". A few scraps a season against respectabe opponent will do. (Or beating someone so badly that others are scared of him. Then he don't have to fight at all. )



Due to his reputation only. Many old timers claim that Howe was the most feared player in the league by his fighting ability too, not only by his physical play and scoring skills. If that indeed was the case, it's irrelevant if he did not fight often. If somebody is too scared to fight a PF, then it's more like a bonus.


Messier and Lindros did not fight that often, and some consider them as spot pickers. But they were also superstar centers and franchise players who made other players better around them. For that kind of player it's more acceptable sometimes to avoid 5-minutes in a box and let the teams enforcer do the scrapping. But even then they have to show some character and fight their own battles here and there per each season. Messier and Lindros fought against a few heavy weights too. Lindros was actually a pretty good fighter.

That's exactly it. I expect a player's fight card to drop off as they get older because at that point they've paid their dues, but not early on. They need to be the one doing the damage, going off on anyone and everyone that stands in their way.

 

[jkrx]

It does not equal the term, but fighting is part of being a true power forward. The European criteria of the term may be different due to cultural differences, but in NHL being a power forward means you fight your own fights if needed. Even against tough guys and goons. That's actually one of the key elements: A PF cannot be intimidated and he'll do his own enforcing.

However, since the PF term is not official and fighting is decreasing, it may be that sterilized criteria for the PF term is becoming more common. I don't consider AO as a true PF with his 4 career fights in 475 NHL games. I change my opinion if he fights more. He is a big star so he does not have to "goon it up". A few scraps a season against respectabe opponent will do. (Or beating someone so badly that others are scared of him. Then he don't have to fight at all. )



Due to his reputation only. Many old timers claim that Howe was the most feared player in the league by his fighting ability too, not only by his physical play and scoring skills. If that indeed was the case, it's irrelevant if he did not fight often. If somebody is too scared to fight a PF, then it's more like a bonus.


Messier and Lindros did not fight that often, and some consider them as spot pickers. But they were also superstar centers and franchise players who made other players better around them. For that kind of player it's more acceptable sometimes to avoid 5-minutes in a box and let the teams enforcer do the scrapping. But even then they have to show some character and fight their own battles here and there per each season. Messier and Lindros fought against a few heavy weights too. Lindros was actually a pretty good fighter.

The european criteria?

Ovechin isnt getting intimidated either and fighting for him would be absolutely pointless for the team but he do stand up for himself.

I would say that a smart PF doesnt fight a goon unless its absolutely needed for him to do so (Shanny vs. Brashear for example). Usually the PFs did in the beginning of their career to earn reputation but was eventually instructed by their coaches to quit it. Take a look at some of these PFs fight cards and you'll see that they rarely if ever fought a goon once they established themselves. That's when you become a power forward.

 

[Slapshooter]

Usually the PFs did in the beginning of their career to earn reputation but was eventually instructed by their coaches to quit it.
Take a look at some of these PFs fight cards and you'll see that they rarely if ever fought a goon once they established themselves. That's when you become a power forward.

Exactly, but Ovehckin have not established himself as a fighter at all. He does not have an intimidating reputation, except he is a reckless hitter which is good thing here. AO may be a too important player to take 5 minute penalties, but he is not just in the same class as true power forwards when it comes to defending himself or teammates without gloves. A visor does not help his case either in this thread.

 

[pappyline]

The 5th seems about right place for Shanny. His career was better than of Lindros or Neely, but then again those two were the best power forwards ever at their peaks. Messier and Howe could be considered as a borderline cases for a true PF, but were simply too good to ignore. Tocchet and Stevens had similar peaks as Shanahan, but weaker careers. Roberts following them. Iginla might actually be the 7th best. Tkachuk should crack at the top 10.

My top-10 PF's out of the blue:

1. Lindros
2. Neely
3. Howe
4. Messier
5. Shanahan
6. Tocchet
7. Iginla
8. Stevens
9. Roberts
10.Tkachuk


Ranking power forwards is a very subjective thing, though. It all depends what counts more: overall scoring, goal scoring, hitting, intimidation, overall physical game or fighting.

A true power forward should be able to score goals and play physical game with the best of them. Also a willingness to drop the gloves against goons and enforcers if needed, which makes Messier a borderline case. IMO, Joe Thornton is a too medicore goal scorer to be considered as a true PF. Never hit a 40 goal mark and passed 30 only twice so far.

My personal favorites were Neely and Tocchet. Neely was the best combination of hitting and goal scoring, while Tocchet was likely the best fighter of those 10.

Shanahan was probably the most consistent of them as his goal scoring remained impressive even at the old age. During his younger days he would fight anybody. Not the most aggressive or hardest hitter, though.

A good list of power forwards yet I wonder why Bobby Hull is usually left off these lists. He could certainly score goals and play a physical game. Didn't fight often but was willing to drop the gloves when necessary. Fought tough guys like John ferguson & Reg Fleming. Certainly didn't pick his spots. A good example of his physical play was laying the body on Salming during the 76 Canada cup.

Edit: Rocket Richard would also fit the criteria for PF.

 

[jkrx]

Exactly, but Ovehckin have not established himself as a fighter at all. He does not have an intimidating reputation, except he is a reckless hitter which is good thing here. AO may be a too important player to take 5 minute penalties, but he is not just in the same class as true power forwards when it comes to defending himself or teammates without gloves. A visor does not help his case either in this thread.

Iginla wears a visor so that point is pretty much moot. Can you honestly say that you have ever seen Ovechin shy away from joining a scrum/melee unless it has been to draw a penalty?

Shanahan has three rings to Iginla's zero, but it goes deeper than that. Was Shanahan a legendary playoff performer? He had 134 points in 184 games. That isn't bad, but you could have certainly expected more out of him.

Difference is that Shanahan got a much larger sample size in the playoffs. Including twillight years.

That being said, if you really want to get to the nitty gritty of it should we even mention the Hart trophy voting record for Shanahan? It is downright ugly for a future HHOFer.

Shanahan's best finishes: 9th, 15th, 18th, 22nd

Iginla's best finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 12th, 12th, 15th

At which point in Shanhans career do you suppose he should have been able to get votes for hart trophy when his competition were the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Messier, Bourque, Hull etc in their primes?

 

[Clown Baby*]

At which point in Shanhans career do you suppose he should have been able to get votes for hart trophy when his competition were the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Messier, Bourque, Hull etc in their primes?

The best players rise above their peers. They need no excuses.

Lindros won his Hart against the likes of Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Bourque, Chelios, Hasek, Brodeur, Leetch, et al. (along with 4 other top-10 finishes in Hart Trophy voting.)

Messier won his Hart(s) against the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Borque, Chelios, Coffey, Roy, Hasek, et al.

 

[Big Phil]

Whether one has more SC rings or Heart nominations has IMO little relevance in this kind PF ranking. It's more about how good they were in their power game = scoring goals, hitting, battling in the front of the net, battling in corners, fighting and intimidating the opposition.

If we are judging just purely on how they performed as power forwards, then I can see Shanahan winning a poll like that.

At which point in Shanhans career do you suppose he should have been able to get votes for hart trophy when his competition were the likes of Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Messier, Bourque, Hull etc in their primes?

Well, for a player to never finish any higher than 9th raises some questions. I don't deny Shanahan gets into the HHOF, but he falls under the category of a player who I think has had his legend grow a bit bigger than the reality. Keep in mind, Shanahan was a popular player so you'd think he'd have gotten some brownie votes here and there but it doesn't look like it.

Also, all those players minus Jagr were past or nearing the end of the time when they would be Hart threats. Shanahan had the mid 1990s onward where everyone minus Jagr wasn't expected to be the MVP anymore. He still had a poor showing. Besides, I'm not saying he had to win the Hart, after all Selanne never won it, but he at least had some years where he was close to it. Shanahan never was. Even with Gretzky and Messier and Lemieux you can still finish 5th-10th at some time

 

[Hardyvan123]

Shanny is the winner. Iginla lacks some rings on him. That would be a difference.

Iggy was 1,1,3,3 in goals for his top 10 appearances
Shanny was 5,6,6,9 and 10th

Iggy has a better overall Olympic and playoff record than Shanny as well.

Maybe Shanny was an important piece for Detroit finally winning the cup, unfortunately Iggy has never been close in terms of supporting cast so the cup counting isn't the best comp IMO.