Where does Pierre Turgeon rank?

[Badger Bob]

That's a little unfair. Please enlighten as to how many guys touted as franchise players were able to successfully lead their teams to glory at ages 18 to 22? They are few and far between, my friend. Mario Lemieux burned up the league his first four years yet the Penguins completely failed to make the playoffs. Turgeon cracked 100 points at age 20, yet Pat LaFontaine didn't hit that mark until age 25.

Maybe the perspective is different in Western Canada. Maybe Pat LaFontaine got the most out of Patrick Flatley? PL killed penalties as well, which wasn't exactly Turgeon's forte.

And you use Mogilny as an argument, conveniently forgetting that Mogilny, the first ever Russian to play in the NHL, himself had trouble adjusting to NHL play his first couple of seasons. By the time he started figuring out the NHL game, Turgeon was already gone.

Forgot what? Mogilny potted 30 goals in his second season, 39 his third, which was before the arrival of PL. He had the game figured out, and at least an inkling as to how to find the back of the net. In '92-'93, he had 76. So, it could be successfully argued that the chemistry with Patty was what directly led to total. (Andreychuk had a little difficulty keeping up with those two on the fly!)

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/players/data02/00003762.html

And on a team that also featured Dale Hawerchuk, Dave Andreychuk and Mike Ramsey, why does the burden of the blame for not getting past the first round in the playoffs fall upon the shoulders of Turgeon and Housley?

Who said it all fell on the shoulders of Turgeon and Housley? The departures of Andreychuk, Housley and Turgeon were lamented by few in Buffalo, which made Andreychuk's subsequent return so startling. Nevertheless, Housley and Turgeon, specifically, were symptomatic of what was wrong with the franchise during that era. An old joke went around town that wearing the blue and gold immediately drove up estrogen levels. Turgeon and Housley fit that profile.

Perhaps if he hadn't been saddled with the pressure of being the heir to Gilbert Perreault, and been given a fair chance to develop, Buffalo would've seen the same Pierre Turgeon as Long Island hockey fans.

What makes you automatically assume that there was any pressure? The team had the worst record in the NHL, which led to the first overall pick. Nobody expected an immediate turnaround.

Your orginal comment was to credit him with getting 100 points by age 20 - a threshold he only surpassed one other time - then you turn around and blame the franchise for not giving him "a fair chance to develop."

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/players/data05/00005495.html

He had played over 4 full seasons for the Sabres, and was given regular ice time on a featured scoring line. The organization decided to make a change, which paid huge dividends by acquring one of the best-loved athletes in Buffalo sports history.

Pierre Turgeon was Alexandre Daigle with a little more desire.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Pierre Turgeon was Alexandre Daigle with a little more desire.

a little more desire? arguably. way way more talented? undoubtedly. in the end, that's how turgeon lasted so long, despite very rarely putting his body on the line. turgeon could have been one of the all-time greats, he was that good. if he were only as good as daigle, i doubt he'd have lasted very long at all.

incidentally, what about pierre's brother sylvain? drafted second overall, directly before lafontaine and yzerman. a very good offensive player early on, though, in addition to being soft and a floater, he was a malcontent and a loner and never came close to reaching his potential. montreal trading claude lemieux to nj for sylvain turgeon... worse than the islanders trading lafontaine for pierre?

 

[Al Bundy*]

Who said it all fell on the shoulders of Turgeon and Housley? The departures of Andreychuk, Housley and Turgeon were lamented by few in Buffalo, which made Andreychuk's subsequent return so startling. Nevertheless, Housley and Turgeon, specifically, were symptomatic of what was wrong with the franchise during that era. An old joke went around town that wearing the blue and gold immediately drove up estrogen levels. Turgeon and Housley fit that profile.

You say that Andreychuk's departure as being "lamented by few in Buffalo."

I may have never lived in Buffalo, but I was one of those few.

Fuhr was not exactly that great in Buffalo (with the exception of the Mayday series)

He played only 64 games in his time with the Sabres.

At the time he was traded, Andreychuk was playing very well. He had 29 goals at the time, and, with LaFontaine on another planet that season, he was on pace for about 57-60 had he not been dealt.

For me, that trade was bad- had they kept Andreychuk, I honestly believe that the Habs would NOT have beaten the Sabres in the playoffs- his tendency for garbage goals near the net were the type that could have changed the course of those playoffs.

To this day, I believe if the Sabres had kept Andreychuk, they beat the Habs that year and Montreal's overtime mystique would have been DEAD IN THE WATER!!

 

[Badger Bob]

You say that Andreychuk's departure as being "lamented by few in Buffalo."

I may have never lived in Buffalo, but I was one of those few.

Andreychuk got treated pretty shabbily by fans and the media in WNY, no question. My view was always that too many fans expected him to be Cam Neely, and that just wasn't his game. He was just big and slow, but jammed the net and banged in rebounds. He did that as well as anybody in hockey history.

Fuhr was not exactly that great in Buffalo (with the exception of the Mayday series)

He played only 64 games in his time with the Sabres.

Fuhr did get back in shape...but in St. Louis.

At the time he was traded, Andreychuk was playing very well. He had 29 goals at the time, and, with LaFontaine on another planet that season, he was on pace for about 57-60 had he not been dealt.

The organization probably figured that anybod could ride shotgun at LW with LaFontaine and Mogilny. Remember Yuri Khmylev? He's got a daughter, Olga, who's developing a reputation in tennis.

http://www.tennisrecruiting.net/player/activity.asp?id=222020

For me, that trade was bad- had they kept Andreychuk, I honestly believe that the Habs would NOT have beaten the Sabres in the playoffs- his tendency for garbage goals near the net were the type that could have changed the course of those playoffs.

To this day, I believe if the Sabres had kept Andreychuk, they beat the Habs that year and Montreal's overtime mystique would have been DEAD IN THE WATER!!

JOhn Muckler got raked over the coals by Cliff Fletcher. From memory the Sabres got Fuhr for Darren Puppa, Andreychuk and a 1st rounder (Kenny Jonsson).

 

[Badger Bob]

The Blues were thrilled he did: he responded with two of the best years of his career. He had back-to-back excellent seasons.

Comments from Craig Conroy, who was in St. Louis at the time:

http://calsun.canoe.ca/Sports/Hockey/Flames/2008/01/24/4790737-sun.html

bombing pucks at the net, the way Al MacInnis would fire a shot that was really a hard pass to Pierre Turgeon at the side of the net for the easy goal.

So, basically all Turgeon had to do in St. Louis was feed Brett Hull and position himself for redirects from Al MacInnis.

 

[Badger Bob]

This is what people have an irrational hate for Turgeon think who compare him to Alexandre Daigle and downplay every accomplishment.

For the amount of talent Turgeon possessed, his accomplishments were quite meager. As far as the comparison with Daigle, it's not as far-fetched as it seems, even with the benefit of hindsight. Daigle arrived in Ottawa with extremely high expectations, and he might've been one of the long line of "Next Ones" b/t Lemieux & Crosby.

Not people who followed him in St. Louis though.

Good for the fans in St. Louis then. Most of the last two decades, they were content with just qualifying for the post-season. A couple of years on the outside, looking in, have helped them re-think their organizational objectives. Having chronic underachievers around, like Turgeon, wasn't what was going to help them attain the next level.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Comments from Craig Conroy, who was in St. Louis at the time:

http://calsun.canoe.ca/Sports/Hockey/Flames/2008/01/24/4790737-sun.html



So, basically all Turgeon had to do in St. Louis was feed Brett Hull and position himself for redirects from Al MacInnis.

except Brett Hull played maybe 1 season with Turgeon. The best winger Turgeon played with was Scott Young, and Turgeon made Young A LOT of money he did not deserve.

 

[Big Phil]

Turgeon might be a lot like Pete Mahovolich. Now when I say that I mean how close they are to the Hall of Fame. Mahovlich was a better playoff performer and won 4 Cups and won twice at the top level with Canada ('72, '76). Turgeon did none of that.

But you can make a weak argument for both of them for getting in there. They both had two very good to great seasons. Both had nothing near that afterwards. And both left you thirsting for more. Both are good players and always will be but Hall of Fame talk is a bit premature.