Where does Clayton Kershaw rank among all-time pitchers?
- Thread starter Maestro84
- Start date
- Jun 23, 2020
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As great as Kershaw has been, the top ten is a very exclusive club.
Let's consider the resume you've posted for Kershaw and compare it to some other great pitchers:
Cy Young
- 1901 Triple Crown
- 1903 World Series Champion; 1904 American League Champion (NL champion Giants refused to play in the World Series)
- Wins titles (5), ERA titles (2), strikeouts titles (2), WHIP titles (7), WAR titles (6)
- 511 wins, 2.63 ERA, 7356.0 innings pitched, 2803 strikeouts, 138 ERA+, 163.8 WAR
- Still holds the career wins, losses, innings pitched, complete games, games pitched, games started records
- All Star Games, MVP Awards, Cy Young Awards, Rookie of the Year Awards, and Gold Gloves were not awarded during his career
Pete Alexander
- 1915, 1916, 1917, 1920 Triple Crowns
- 1926 World Series Champion
- Wins titles (6), ERA titles (5), strikeouts titles (6), WHIP titles (5), WAR titles (6)
- 373 wins, 2.56 ERA, 5190.0 innings pitched, 2198 strikeouts, 135 ERA+, 119.0 WAR
- Still holds the single season shutouts record
- Missed most of 1918 to military service
- All Star Games, Cy Young Awards, Rookie of the Year Awards, and Gold Gloves were not awarded during his career
Walter Johnson
- 1913, 1924 MVP
- 1913, 1918, 1924 Triple Crowns
- 1924 World Series Champion
- Wins titles (6), ERA titles (5), strikeouts titles (12), WHIP titles (6), WAR titles (7)
- 417 wins, 2.17 ERA, 5914.1 innings pitched, 3509 strikeouts, 147 ERA+, 164.5 WAR
- Set the career strikeouts record and held it for 61 years; Still holds the career shutouts record
- All Star Games, Cy Young Awards, Rookie of the Year Awards, and Gold Gloves were not awarded during his career
Lefty Grove
- 1931 MVP
- 1930, 1931 Triple Crown
- 1929, 1930 World Series Champion
- All Star selections (6)
- Wins titles (4), ERA titles (9), strikeouts titles (7), WHIP titles (5), WAR titles (8)
- 300 wins, 3.06 ERA, 3940.2 innings pitched, 2266 strikeouts, 148 ERA+, 106.7 WAR
- Missed several prime seasons as his rights were owned by a minor league team that refused to sell him to a major league team until 1925
- Cy Young Awards, Rookie of the Year Awards, and Gold Gloves were not awarded during his career; All Star Games started during mid-career
Bob Feller
- 1940 Triple Crown
- 1948 World Series Champion
- All Star selections (8)
- Wins titles (6), ERA titles (1), strikeouts titles (7), WHIP titles (2), WAR titles (3)
- 266 wins, 3.25 ERA, 3827 innings pitched, 2581 strikeouts, 122 ERA+, 63.4 WAR
- Missed nearly four prime years to military service
- Cy Young Awards, Rookie of the Year Awards, and Gold Gloves were not awarded during his career
Bob Gibson
- 1968 MVP; 1968, 1970 Cy Youngs
- 1964, 1967 World Series Champion; 1964, 1967 World Series MVP
- All Star selections (8), Gold Gloves (9)
- Wins titles (1), ERA titles (1), strikeouts titles (1), WHIP titles (1), WAR titles (3)
- 251 wins, 2.91 ERA, 3884.1 innings pitched, 3117 strikeouts, 127 ERA+, 89.2 WAR
Tom Seaver
- 1969, 1973, 1975 Cy Youngs, 1967 Rookie of the Year
- 1969 World Series Champion
- All Star selections (12)
- Wins titles (3), ERA titles (3), strikeouts titles (5), WHIP titles (3), WAR titles (3)
- 311 wins, 2.86 ERA, 4783 innings pitched, 3640 strikeouts, 127 ERA+, 109.9 WAR
Roger Clemens
- 1986 MVP; 1986, 1987, 1991, 1997, 1998, 2001, 2004 Cy Youngs
- 1997, 1998 Triple Crowns
- 1999, 2000 World Series Champion
- All Star selections (11)
- Wins titles (4), ERA titles (7), strikeouts titles (5), WHIP titles (3), WAR titles (7)
- 354 wins, 3.12 ERA, 4916.2 innings pitched, 4672 strikeouts, 143 ERA+, 139.2 WAR
Randy Johnson
- 1995, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 Cy Youngs
- 2002 Triple Crown
- 2001 World Series Champion, World Series MVP
- All Star selections (10)
- Wins titles (1), ERA titles (4), strikeouts titles (9), WHIP titles (3), WAR titles (6)
- 303 wins, 3.29 ERA, 4135.1 innings pitched, 4875 strikeouts, 135 ERA+, 101.1 WAR
Greg Maddux
- 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995 Cy Youngs
- 1995 World Series Champion
- All Star selections (8), Gold Gloves (18)
- Wins titles (3), ERA titles (4), WHIP titles (4), WAR titles (3)
- 355 wins, 3.16 ERA, 5008.1 innings pitched, 3371 strikeouts, 132 ERA+, 106.6 WAR
This further ignores pitchers like Kid Nichols, Warren Spahn, Christy Mathewson, Pedro Martinez, Steve Carlton, Carl Hubbell, Sandy Koufax, Bert Blyleven, Justin Verlander, Phil Niekro, Nolan Ryan, Gaylord Perry, Tim Keefe, John Clarkson, Satchel Paige, Smokey Joe Williams, Bullet Joe Rogan, Curt Schilling, Robin Roberts, Mike Mussina, and others who have cases for the top 10, the top 25 or the top 30 at least.
Kershaw is great, maybe the greatest of his generation, but without another five hundred to thousand innings, I can't see him anywhere near the top 10. Top 25, though, I could see.
Last edited:
Terry Yake
Registered User
- Aug 5, 2013
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Voight
#winning
Top 20 easily. He was already top 20, but playing much better and then winning the piece of metal this October certainly silenced some of his critics.
GIN ANTONIC
Registered User
He's *only* 32 but he does have a lot of innings on his arm and some injuries. We've seen a bit of a decline in velo in the last couple of years but he's still got great stuff and could become more of a Maddux type pitcher in his later years and get players out without upper 90's stuff.
I'd have to think 300 wins is unrealistic although not impossible. He'd need 8 years x 15 wins to get him close to that mark but 250 wins is absolutely doable and that's a pretty monster number in this day an age. Not that wins are everything but if you want to get into that top 10 conversation you need the numbers everywhere to justify it.
Agree with everyone else in that we'll have to see how the last 40% of his career goes. I probably don't have him top 10 right now, top 20 for sure but he could get there eventually.
I'd have to think 300 wins is unrealistic although not impossible. He'd need 8 years x 15 wins to get him close to that mark but 250 wins is absolutely doable and that's a pretty monster number in this day an age. Not that wins are everything but if you want to get into that top 10 conversation you need the numbers everywhere to justify it.
Agree with everyone else in that we'll have to see how the last 40% of his career goes. I probably don't have him top 10 right now, top 20 for sure but he could get there eventually.
I'd say he's #6 all-time, just behind Jair Jurrjens.
Quid Pro Clowe
Registered User
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Kershaw needed it to "cement his legacy" because of his playoff track record.
Despite being the best pitcher in the game, he's been a playoff dud throughout his career until this year. And when you're comparing the greats against each other, championships and postseason play matter.
Quid Pro Clowe
Registered User
His peripherals have always been fine. His era is higher but that can be attributed to sample size.
Playoff runs build legacies for guys like Edgar Renteria. Without his Fla and Sf runs he's probably best remembered as "E6gar". Kershaw would have been a 1st ballot hofer either way.
Big Poppa Puck
HF's Villain
Trout would have another 2 or 3 MVPs if it wasn't for this stupid mindset. 1 player can only control so much. Especially a pitcher who pitches once or twice per week tops. I know Kershaw wasn't really great in the playoffs until this year but still. Even if he got slapped around again this year and the Dodgers still won the narrative would probably the same. "HE HAS A RING NOW!"
darko
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- Feb 16, 2009
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Quid Pro Clowe
Registered User
It's those Cardinals games that have done him in more than anything. Adams hitting a 3 run jack was as flukey as it gets.
Blackhawkswincup
RIP Fugu
Roger Clemens has no business that high on list
The entire 2nd half of his career was tainted
He was great pitcher (On path to HOF) but he cant be grouped with greatest when 2nd half of his career was a lie
As for Kershaw I put him with a guy like Pedro Martinez (Though I would rank Martinez higher)
I would put Kershaw is in the 20-30 range and with a few more years of productive play he probably can end up in 10-20 range
- Jun 23, 2020
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I don't give steroid demerits, so he stays on my list.
Wouldn't help Kershaw much anyway.
BigBadBruins7708
Registered User
Pitchers I have firmly ahead of him (in no order):
Young
Spahn
Walter Johnson
Gibson
Koufax
Clemens
Maddux
Pedro
Randy Johnson
Rivera
Nolan Ryan
So call it anywhere from 12th to 17th
Young
Spahn
Walter Johnson
Gibson
Koufax
Clemens
Maddux
Pedro
Randy Johnson
Rivera
Nolan Ryan
So call it anywhere from 12th to 17th
- Jun 23, 2020
- 5,373
- 7,582
Seems like selling Lefty Grove, Tom Seaver, Pete Alexander, and Christy Mathewson a bit short, plus another dozen pitchers whose cases are at least as good as Nolan Ryan (Niekro, Carlton, Feller, Hubbell, Blyleven, Nichols, Paige).
FiveTacos
Registered User
Isn't he actually very similar to Maddux in a lot of ways? I recall Maddux also having many mixed results in the playoffs after great regular seasons.
- Jun 23, 2020
- 5,373
- 7,582
Yes, except that Maddux is what you get if you staple a sizable and successful career onto Kershaw's. I think Maddux has Kershaw beat on peak, too.
Vamos Rafa
Registered User
Can you please elaborate on this?
If anyone is overrated to common baseball fans it's Nolan Ryan.
To answer the OP. I rank him in my top 30. No where near the top 15 at this point.
Top 30 is way too low. Is there a better pitcher to enter the league in the past 25 years?
