Where Does Bossy Rank On Your List of Greats Goal Scorers

[John Flyers Fan]

Over the last 35 years my top 6 would be:

1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Bossy
4. B. Hull
4. A. Ovechkin
6. P. Bure

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Just to throw some numbers out there:
Bossy: 573 gls in 752 games=0.76 gpg
Gordie: 801 gls in 1767 gms=0.45 gpg
Espo:717 gls in 1282 gms=0.56 gpg
Marcel Dionne:731 gls in 1348 gms=0.54 gpg
Lafleur:560 gls in 1127 gms=0.50 gpg
Gretzky: 894 gls in 1487 gms=0.60 gpg
Mario:690 gls in 915 gms=0.75 gpg
Brett Hull:741 gls in 1269 gms=0.58 gpg
Bobby Hull:560 gls in 1063 gms=0.53 gpg

Not to use stats as a be-all-end-all to deciding who should be up there, but it is interesting that the guys with the higher goals to game average are in there.

You do realize that scoring goals in the original 6 era was significantly more difficult than in the 70's, 80's and early 90's, correct?

I'm not sure I follow your point here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just to throw some numbers out there:
Bossy: 573 gls in 752 games=0.76 gpg
Gordie: 801 gls in 1767 gms=0.45 gpg
Espo:717 gls in 1282 gms=0.56 gpg
Marcel Dionne:731 gls in 1348 gms=0.54 gpg
Lafleur:560 gls in 1127 gms=0.50 gpg
Gretzky: 894 gls in 1487 gms=0.60 gpg
Mario:690 gls in 915 gms=0.75 gpg
Brett Hull:741 gls in 1269 gms=0.58 gpg
Bobby Hull:560 gls in 1063 gms=0.53 gpg

Not to use stats as a be-all-end-all to deciding who should be up there, but it is interesting that the guys with the higher goals to game average are in there.

The only "interesting" thing about it that I see is that they all played in the 70s and 80s.

 

[habsfan92]

My point is that I don't think that Howe was that great a goal scorer in comparison to the others listed. Definitely not in my top five. Now keep in mind I am talking strictly pure goal scorer, not player or point producer. I understand that comparing different eras and scoring is relative, but Richard had a 0.56 goals to game ratio in he same time frame, which would lead me to say that he was better natural scorer than Howe. Geoffrion is at 0.45 btw. Again, just personally feel that Howe wouldn't be in my top 5-6 pure goal scorers of all time. If I am looking at a pure scorer, his goals to games ratio would be higher than what Howe's was. That is all.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My point is that I don't think that Howe was that great a goal scorer in comparison to the others listed. Definitely not in my top five. Now keep in mind I am talking strictly pure goal scorer, not player or point producer. I understand that comparing different eras and scoring is relative, but Richard had a 0.56 goals to game ratio in he same time frame, which would lead me to say that he was better natural scorer than Howe. Geoffrion is at 0.45 btw. Again, just personally feel that Howe wouldn't be in my top 5-6 pure goal scorers of all time. If I am looking at a pure scorer, his goals to games ratio would be higher than what Howe's was. That is all.

You're really using the career goals per game average of someone who played until he was like 100 years old and comparing it to the career "per game" averages of players with more normal career lengths?

And of course, there's the little fact that everyone with a better average than Howe who you listed just happened to play in the 70s and 80s.

 

[habsfan92]

The only "interesting" thing about it that I see is that they all played in the 70s and 80s.

I listed to which I personally witnessed during that era. Not to disregard previous or subsequent players or eras. If you assume that it was easier to score during those times, who is really to say. The further we go along, the greater the number of exceptional players.

 

[habsfan92]

You're really using the career goals per game average of someone who played until he was like 100 years old and comparing it to the career "per game" averages of players with more normal career lengths?

And of course, there's the little fact that everyone with a better average than Howe who you listed just happened to play in the 70s and 80s.

Richard and Geoffrion did not, that's obvious. But Howe is the one who played in the 70's and 80's.

 

[Phil Parent]

He best after Rocket, the Gretzky and the Howe.

If he back on 1988 for Los Angeles or Montreal, he score 30 goals playing 5 on 4 time with the bad back.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Best pure goal scorer I ever saw in over 30-plus years of watching hockey. And I hate him.

 

[Ziostilon]

Over the last 35 years my top 6 would be:

1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Bossy
4. B. Hull
4. A. Ovechkin
6. P. Bure

no Guy Lafleur but rather Bure?

 

[Passchendaele]

at the top.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyxAOAwPlBk&feature=related
@59 seconds is one of the best goals EVER.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but it was nothing special. It's not like he shot the puck while falling, he did shoot the puck before falling actually.

 

[djcreepshow]

Bossy was the greatest natural goal scorer of all time.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Bossy is in my top 10 probably closer to 5 than 10 at 1st glance, although I wonder what and when his decline would have been like had he stayed healthy.

Even in 10 seasons he still ranks 49th all time adjusted in goal scoring and his goal scoring prowess in the playoffs during the 4 year cup run is just plain sick.

 

[BraveCanadian]

This is a tough one because it is so hard to compare across eras but I'll take a shot at my list..

Gretzky
Lemieux (if it was 1 on 1 with the game on the line he's my #1)
Bobby Hull
Howe
Bossy
Brett Hull
Ovechkin
Lafleur
Richard
Yzerman

 

[Trottier]

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but it was nothing special. It's not like he shot the puck while falling, he did shoot the puck before falling actually.

The hits just keep coming. ^^^

 

[Czech Your Math]

I'd put him closer to the bottom than the top of this list:

Lemieux
Gretzky
Howe
Hull
Richard
Jagr
Brett Hull
Ovechkin
Esposito
Bure

 

[Fourier]

For me the list would be

1) Gretzky
2) Lemieux
3) Bossy

I am actually somewhat surprised that so many suggest Bossy is the most versatile goal scorer. This I would have given that title to Gretzky in a heart beat, because I have never seen anyone manufacture goals like Gretzky.

That said, Bossy was a treat to watch. For me he is in many ways the definition of the undefinable term: Pure Goal Scorer.

Just to throw some numbers out there:
Bossy: 573 gls in 752 games=0.76 gpg
Gordie: 801 gls in 1767 gms=0.45 gpg
Espo:717 gls in 1282 gms=0.56 gpg
Marcel Dionne:731 gls in 1348 gms=0.54 gpg
Lafleur:560 gls in 1127 gms=0.50 gpg
Gretzky: 894 gls in 1487 gms=0.60 gpg
Mario:690 gls in 915 gms=0.75 gpg
Brett Hull:741 gls in 1269 gms=0.58 gpg
Bobby Hull:560 gls in 1063 gms=0.53 gpg

Not to use stats as a be-all-end-all to deciding who should be up there, but it is interesting that the guys with the higher goals to game average are in there.

As an apples to apples comparison though, in their first ten years in the league you would have

Gretzky 637 gls in 774 gp = .82 gpg
Lemieux 494 gls in 599 gp =.82 gpg

Best shooter I've ever seen. Imagine what his goal scoring numbers could have been had he been allowed to play pond hockey by Arbour like Gretzky and Lemieux were able to. I said it back then and I'll say it now, on the Oilers, playing pond hockey in the 80's, IMO he would have scored 100 goals.

I agree that Bossy was the best shooter I have ever seen. But I don't really agree with the rest of the post.

I don't see any evidence to suggest that Bossy had 31 more goals in him than his best season. Gretzky's 92 goal and 87 goal seasons were incredible, as was Lemieux's 85 goals in 76 games and 69 in 60. Bossy never came close to touching these marks.

And while I will let the Pittsburgh crew speak for Lemieux, I can say that the Oilers were far more structured than pond hockey might suggest. From 1983-84 to 1986-87 the Oilers gave up 1206 goals against. In the same period, the Islanders gave up 1146 goals, a difference of about 15 goals per year. During that period Gretzky scored 274 goals in 313 games for an average of .88 goals per game.

Most definitely the Oilers were a wide open team. But much of this was built on an incredible transitional game, which was made possible in great part by Gretzky's unmatched instincts. Watching Gretzky and the Oilers live during that time period you would have seen the structure in their game and realised that the claims the team did not play defense were greatly exaggerated. Gretzky had a significant role in this aspect of the game, far more so than is generally acknowledged. This was much easier to see live BTW than it was on TV, because so much of what drove his game happened away from the play.

Look at his playoff goal scoring numbers during the Isles dynasty years. Nobody touches that type of dominance in the goalscoring department. 61 goals in 72 playoff games. Not even Gretzky during the Oilers cup years scored goals at that rate.

I agree that Bossy's playoff feats were spectacular. But in comparison Gretzky scored 64 goals in his first 80 playoff games, which was not so bad either.

 

[Hardyvan123]

no Guy Lafleur but rather Bure?

Bure was a better goal scorer while Lafleur was the better overall player.

I'm wondering how the flower and his smoking habit would have held up in today's fast paced game? He might have cut back on the smokes I would think.

 

[Dark Shadows]

And while I will let the Pittsburgh crew speak for Lemieux, I can say that the Oilers were far more structured than pond hockey might suggest. From 1983-84 to 1986-87 the Oilers gave up 1206 goals against. In the same period, the Islanders gave up 1146 goals, a difference of about 15 goals per year. During that period Gretzky scored 274 goals in 313 games for an average of .88 goals per game.

I do not disagree with Gretzky being ranked ahead, but That's a bit of a strange way of looking at it. Those years you chose were when the Oilers were in their primes and the Isles were on the decline.

Why not look at the 4 years when each won the cup?

The 4 years the Isles won the cup, they had 1323 goals for, 983 Goals against, while the 4 years the Oilers won the cup, they had 1582 goals for, and 1184 goals against.

Averaged out, the Isles had 331 goals for and 246 goals against during their 4 cup years. The Oilers during their 4 Gretzky cup years had 396 goals for and 296 goals against.

 

[Czech Your Math]

It ultimately comes down to opinion, but will still add a little statistical analysis.

Seems like Bossy's case primarily rests on two pillars:

1. He was consistently an excellent goal scorer for basically his whole career (10 seasons)
2. He scored a ton of playoff goals during the Islanders' Cups

I'm going to address the first in this post. How do some other goal-scoring greats compare to Bossy's remarkable consistency?

Adjusting to 82 games in an 8.0 goals per game league:

Best 9 & 10 consecutive adjusted goal seasons (avg.)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Esposito 73.2, 70.1
Bobby Hull 71.1, 69.8
Howe 70.6, 68.7
Gretzky 69.1, 68.1
Brett Hull 67.9, 66.0
Bossy 65.0, 62.7
Jagr 63.9, 62.3 (averaged 63.1 over 11 consecutive seasons)
Richard 62.3, 61.6 (starting '45-46 season or later)
Lemieux 60.7, 60.6
Selanne 58.8, 57.4
Dionne 57.5, 55.0
Lafleur 55.3, 52.6

To match Bossy's 9-10 consecutive season averages, Ovechkin would have to average ~36-37 goals over the next 4-5 seasons if league scoring stays at last season's 5.68 gpg pace.

Bossy scored 67.9 adjusted goals per 82 games over his first 9 seasons (689 games) and 66.8 adjusted goals per 82 games over his 10 year career (752 games).

Looking at some other greats over similar stretches (similar number of games in consecutive seasons):

Lemieux 83.9 in 636 games, 80.2 in 715 games
Bobby Hull 74.2 in 681, 73.7 in 759
Brett Hull 72.9 in 653, 72.3 in 713
Gretzky 71.5 in 695, 70.4 in 774
Jagr 69.9 in 639, 68.2 in 798
Bossy 67.9 in 689, 66.8 in 752
Richard 67.4 in 632, 66.9 in 723

Didn't calculate Esposito and Howe, since both were already ahead of Bossy on basis of best 9-10 consecutive seasons.

If you look at best 5 or best 8-10 non-consecutive adjusted goal seasons, the following players rank ahead of Bossy in both:

Espo, Gretzky, Howe, both Hulls, Lemieux, Richard, and Jagr.

Bure, Ovechkin, and Selanne all averaged more than Bossy over their best 3 and best 5 seasons, with injuries giving Bossy the edge over their best 8-10 seasons.

Given this data, it's apparent that any claim Bossy has to being one of the top 5 goal scorers of "modern" (post-WW2) hockey relies primarily on his post-season accomplishments.

 

[Fourier]

I do not disagree with Gretzky being ranked ahead, but That's a bit of a strange way of looking at it. Those years you chose were when the Oilers were in their primes and the Isles were on the decline.

Why not look at the 4 years when each won the cup?

The 4 years the Isles won the cup, they had 1323 goals for, 983 Goals against, while the 4 years the Oilers won the cup, they had 1582 goals for, and 1184 goals against.

Averaged out, the Isles had 331 goals for and 246 goals against during their 4 cup years. The Oilers during their 4 Gretzky cup years had 396 goals for and 296 goals against.

I was not trying to compare the Oilers vs the Islanders. I was addressing the claim that if Bossy was allowed to play "pond hockey" like Gretzky and the Oilers that he would have scored 100 goals.

While there is no question that the Islanders played a tighter style than the Oilers, my contention is that the Oilers were not just about "pond hockey". The four years I chose were the years in which the team transitioned from being perceived as a run and gun only squad to a very well rounded championship calibre squad. This meant more attention to their own end and much greater commitment to individual responsibility, including Gretzky. During this period their goals against were comparable to an Islander team that still had Arbour behind the bench, still played a similar style, albeit not as well as a few years earlier. However, in this period of greater responsibility Gretzky's goal totals did not drop. He still out scored Bossy, who should have been in his prime, by quite a bit.

I do think that had Bossy played with the Oilers, Bossy would have scored more goals than he did otherwise. But I still think it is a big stretch to suggest that the Islander's style of play was the only thing holding Bossy back from matching the best years of Gretzky and Lemieux.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I do think that had Bossy played with the Oilers, Bossy would have scored more goals than he did otherwise. But I still think it is a big stretch to suggest that the Islander's style of play was the only thing holding Bossy back from matching the best years of Gretzky and Lemieux.

If Bossy had played WITH Gretzky (like Kurri did) I bet you he easily becomes a 70-80 goal scorer though... still doesn't beat the highs of Gretzky/Lemieux/Hull though.

 

[VanIslander]

If Bossy had played WITH Gretzky (like Kurri did) I bet you he easily becomes a 70-80 goal scorer though...

Yeah, he only played with Bryan Trottier.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

He's numero uno in my book. Best goal-scorer I ever saw. Gretzky's the best player, but he was a playmaker first. I know it sounds ridiculous to say that the greatest goal-scorer I ever saw isn't the guy with the most goals, but hockey was soooooo different in the 80s. You could be a pass-first guy and still get 92 goals in a season. Ditto Lemieux, who could do both equally well.

If we're talking pure goal-scorers, Bossy was the best.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yeah, he only played with Bryan Trottier.

Yes and Trottier was a great all around player. Right up there with Gordie Howe really.

But to compare him as a playmaker to Gretzky.. well no one compares to Gretzky in that department.

Hence my point stands.