Where do you rank Ray Bourque all time?

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Why bring Orr into this.

Seems many posters don't understand how much better a player Orr was than any other defensemen.

"Because he was playing in a prehistoric era where third pairing defensemen today would be first pairing in Orr's era" or "Players back then won't be that good today"

 

[Tarantula]

I never buy into directly comparing players today to players in history. I think you compare how dominant a player was in his era, any other metric is speculation. Orr dominated his time as so few others have.

Borque had a incredible career, in all regards.

 

[67 others]

Marcel Dionne...

Sure bud.

You still evade answering how the wings would have done with Janney and Poulin instead of Yzerman/Fedorov or Datsyuk/Zetterberg. Or Jim Weimer in place of Chelios/Murphy/Rafalski, etc

Because if you say that, I don't want to hear about how irreplaceable Yzerman and Fedorov's amazing playoff performances are in threads defending their all time status' against Sakic/Forsberg or whoever ever again from the people claiming this.

It is also noteworthy that teams keyed their defensive strategies around stopping Bourque and his shot because they did not need to worry about much else on that team. Lidstrom was a capable offensive defender and made the most of his situation, but nobody keyed in on him when they had to worry about his passes going to Yzerman/Fedorov.

 

[Sentinel]

Sure bud.

You still evade answering how the wings would have done with Janney and Poulin instead of Yzerman/Fedorov or Datsyuk/Zetterberg. Or Jim Weimer in place of Chelios/Murphy/Rafalski, etc

Because if you say that, I don't want to hear about how irreplaceable Yzerman and Fedorov's amazing playoff performances are in threads defending their all time status' against Sakic/Forsberg or whoever ever again from the people claiming this.

It is also noteworthy that teams keyed their defensive strategies around stopping Bourque and his shot because they did not need to worry about much else on that team. Lidstrom was a capable offensive defender and made the most of his situation, but nobody keyed in on him when they had to worry about his passes going to Yzerman/Fedorov.

And you are evading a rather obvious fact that Lidstrom was better than Bourque in defending.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Why bring Orr into this.

Seems many posters don't understand how much better a player Orr was than any other defensemen.

"...than any other player."

Fixed it.

Don't worry, Wayne, Mario and Gordie... it's almost a four-way dead heat. Almost.

 

[67 others]

And you are evading a rather obvious fact that Lidstrom was better than Bourque in defending.

Who said he wasn't? But it is bare minimum difference.
IMO Bourque had a far greater edge offensively compared to Lidstrom than Lidstrom had defensively vs Bourque. Bourque was still regularly voted best defensive defenseman in the league by the coaches in the era of odd man rushes every shift.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Sure bud.

You still evade answering how the wings would have done with Janney and Poulin instead of Yzerman/Fedorov or Datsyuk/Zetterberg. Or Jim Weimer in place of Chelios/Murphy/Rafalski, etc

Because if you say that, I don't want to hear about how irreplaceable Yzerman and Fedorov's amazing playoff performances are in threads defending their all time status' against Sakic/Forsberg or whoever ever again from the people claiming this.

It is also noteworthy that teams keyed their defensive strategies around stopping Bourque and his shot because they did not need to worry about much else on that team. Lidstrom was a capable offensive defender and made the most of his situation, but nobody keyed in on him when they had to worry about his passes going to Yzerman/Fedorov.

i have bourque ahead of lidstrom, but re: lidstrom on the PP, it used to be a question of whether lidstrom's efficiency as one of the excellent point shots of all time was him playing with such great players (whether that's yzerman, coffey, murphy, shanahan, fedorov... dino, brett hull...) or whether he was just one of the best point guys ever.

then after the lockout he was still himself and detroit was still at the top of the league for PP goals and PP% with datsyuk, zetterberg, franzen, and schneider/rafalski and we knew that he was something special on the point. not bourque-special, but in the tier just under. that lidstrom slap pass was like clockwork.

 

[Captain Bowie]

First of all, not "everyone" ranks Crosby ahead of Ovechkin. But most do, I suppose.

Second, there's quite a difference between Bourque (twice Cup Finalist with Boston, Cup-champ with Colorado) and Ovechkin (never past 2nd round).

This post did not age well lol.

 

[Sentinel]

Who said he wasn't? But it is bare minimum difference.
IMO Bourque had a far greater edge offensively compared to Lidstrom than Lidstrom had defensively vs Bourque. Bourque was still regularly voted best defensive defenseman in the league by the coaches in the era of odd man rushes every shift.

Defense + personal achievements + team achievements > Offense.

But I better stop. This is one discussion that never goes anywhere.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

And you are evading a rather obvious fact that Lidstrom was better than Bourque in defending.

 

[67 others]

i have bourque ahead of lidstrom, but re: lidstrom on the PP, it used to be a question of whether lidstrom's efficiency as one of the excellent point shots of all time was him playing with such great players (whether that's yzerman, coffey, murphy, shanahan, fedorov... dino, brett hull...) or whether he was just one of the best point guys ever.

then after the lockout he was still himself and detroit was still at the top of the league for PP goals and PP% with datsyuk, zetterberg, franzen, and schneider/rafalski and we knew that he was something special on the point. not bourque-special, but in the tier just under. that lidstrom slap pass was like clockwork.

I am not denying he was special on the point.

But it should be noted that those guys had Detroit's PP running strong even after Lidstrom retired.

Detroit's drafting and grooming of young players was amazing back then. Datsyuk and Zetterberg got to learn from some amazing players and continued to play terrific even after the Yzerman's, Fedorov's and Lidstrom's were long gone.

2005-06: Detroit was 2nd in PP goals, 124 point season(Standings)

124 point season

124 point season

124 point season
2006-07: Detroit was 18th in PP goals, 113 point season, (Zetterberg missed 20 games)
2007-08: Detroit was 3rd in PP goals, 115 point season
2008-09: Detroit was 1st in PP goals, 112 point season
2009-10: Detroit was 9th in PP goals 102 point season
2010-11: Detroit was 4th in PP goals 104 point season
2011-12: Detroit was 13th in PP goals 102 point season
-----
Lidstrom retires

------
2012-13: Detroit was 6th in PP goals, 56 point season, (lockout shortened 48 game year, pro rates to 96 points over 82 games)
2013-14: Detroit was tied for 7th in PP goals, 93 point season (Zetterberg AND Datsyuk missed half the season)
2014-15: Detroit was 1st in PP goals, 100 point season
2015-16: Detroit was 11th in PP goals, 93 point season (Mike Babcock was gone to the leafs this season)
---------
Datsyuk Retires

---------
2016-17 Detroit was 26th in PP goals, 79 point season and the team missed the playoffs for the first time in decades.

People long predicted Detroit would fall to pieces immediately when Lidstrom was gone, but that turned out to not be the case. When Datsyuk left on the other hand.....Talk about colossal drop in the standings and on the PP.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

"...than any other player but Gretzky"

Fixed it.

Don't worry, Orr will always be a member of the Big Four.

 

[67 others]

Defense + personal achievements + team achievements > Offense.

But I better stop. This is one discussion that never goes anywhere.

Except that his personal achievements were directly helped by the fact that he could rack up secondary assists by feeding Yzerman/Fedorov an outlet pass and defenders never keyed in on Lidstrom as the main offensive threat. They could not dare focus on shutting down nick While Stevie Y and Sergei were out there. Same was true for Datsyuk/Zetterberg

Detroit had some major exceptionally gifted Selke Caliber two way forwards able to backcheck to make Lidstrom's decisions easier.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Defense + personal achievements + team achievements > Offense.

But I better stop. This is one discussion that never goes anywhere.

Bourque played against a stronger competition (many more hall of famers) and still won the most Norris trophies of the bunch.

Team achievements...what a stupid way to debate about two players...Put Bourque on those Red Wings teams and he would have won as much if not more Cups than Lidstrom.

 

[67 others]

Bourque played against a stronger competition (many more hall of famers) and still won the most Norris trophies of the bunch.

Team achievements...what a stupid way to debate about two players...Put Bourque on those Red Wings teams and he would have won as much if not more Cups than Lidstrom.

This

The same people who argue for Lidstrom in one thread will be arguing for Fedorov and Steve Yzerman in another thread describing in intimate detail how clutch and amazing they were at two way play and carried their teams. Without them there would be no cup!

Then they try to grant merit points based on how many cups they won and disappear when you ask them to hypothesize replacing Yzerman and Fedorov with Janney and Poulin and Chelios/Rafalski/Konstantinov/Murphy types with Jim Weimer and envisioning the same outcome.

Maybe I should simplify it.

Dear Red wings fans. If you took prime Lidstrom and plopped him on the current 2018 version of the Detroit red Wings, what do you think would happen? Because the Current red wings team is about consistent with the type of team the Bruins had back then.

 

[The Panther]

This post did not age well lol.

How did it not age well?

 

[Captain Bowie]

How did it not age well?

2 months after it Ovechkin was a SC Champion.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

okokok but let's be reality, it's glen wesley, don sweeney, and garry galley, not jim wiemer.

also, in my books if dave poulin was the second line center behind someone like yzerman/fedorov or sakic/forsberg, instead of being the number one center in philly and then backing up janney in boston, that's probably a steve larmer HOVG career.

 

[The Panther]

2 months after it Ovechkin was a SC Champion.

I'm aware of that. But still not aware of how it didn't "age" well. My post was in regards to Bourque.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I'm aware of that. But still not aware of how it didn't "age" well. My post was in regards to Bourque.

I was specifically referring to the part that criticized Ovechkin for never passing the 2nd round.

 

[The Panther]

I was specifically referring to the part that criticized Ovechkin for never passing the 2nd round.

I was not criticizing Ovechkin. My post was about Bourque.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I was not criticizing Ovechkin. My post was about Bourque.

Whatever man. It was a harmless jab about how Ovechkin went on to win the cup immediately after you made the post. Glad to see you haven't lost your classic sense of humor.

 

[67 others]

okokok but let's be reality, it's glen wesley, don sweeney, and garry galley, not jim wiemer.

also, in my books if dave poulin was the second line center behind someone like yzerman/fedorov or sakic/forsberg, instead of being the number one center in philly and then backing up janney in boston, that's probably a steve larmer HOVG career.

Oh certainly.
But in general, the depth on that team was immense.

First cup of the Yzerman Era

When you have a top 4 of
Murphy/Lidstrom
Fetisov/Konstantinov

Bob Rouse and Aaron Ward who barely needed to play

The first trip to the finals with Bourque

A rookie Glen Wesley/Bourque
Michael Thelven/Gord Kluzak (both of whom had 5 year careers or shorter and were 21-37 point Dmen in the 80's, which is basically like being a 12-20 point Dman today AND they were top PP options after Bourque)
Alan Pedersen (A guy with 408 PIM's in 333 career games and 0 points in 64 playoff games)/
and then a revolving door of AHL Dmen

And on top of that, each of Detroit's first 3 lines had Selke caliber forwards LOL

So yeah, replace Murphy with rookie Glen Wesley and it is a downgrade. just erase the Russian pairing and 2nd line entirely and replace them with Bob Rouse and Aaron Ward and then call up 4 AHL kids to play bottom pairing and then plop them against the Gretzky led Oilers

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Oh certainly.
But in general, the depth on that team was immense.

First cup of the Yzerman Era

When you have a top 4 of
Murphy/Lidstrom
Fetisov/Konstantinov

Bob Rouse and Aaron Ward who barely needed to play

The first trip to the finals with Bourque

A rookie Glen Wesley/Bourque
Michael Thelven/Gord Kluzak (both of whom had 5 year careers or shorter and were 21-37 point Dmen in the 80's, which is basically like being a 12-20 point Dman today AND they were top PP options after Bourque)
Alan Pedersen (A guy with 408 PIM's in 333 career games and 0 points in 64 playoff games)/
and then a revolving door of AHL Dmen

And on top of that, each of Detroit's first 3 lines had Selke caliber forwards LOL

So yeah, replace Murphy with rookie Glen Wesley and it is a downgrade. just erase the Russian pairing and 2nd line entirely and replace them with Bob Rouse and Aaron Ward and then call up 4 AHL kids to play bottom pairing and then plop them against the Gretzky led Oilers

obviously detroit was way stronger. but jim wiemer? i couldn’t let that just go uncommented on.

worth mentioning that while the bruins didn’t have scoring depth, they did have some excellent defensive forwards of their own. the first cup finalists had kasper and linseman, who were respectively traded for poulin and carpenter.

 

[67 others]

obviously detroit was way stronger. but jim wiemer? i couldn’t let that just go uncommented on.

worth mentioning that while the bruins didn’t have scoring depth, they did have some excellent defensive forwards of their own. the first cup finalists had kasper and linseman, who were respectively traded for poulin and carpenter.

ill still Take Yzerman and Fedorov over Kasper and Linesman