Where do Crosby and Ovechkins first 5 years rank?

[Ilya Kovalchoke*]

Where do you rank Crosby and Ovechkins first 5 years compared to the all time greats?

Some of the best first 5 year spans I can think of, please help me find more:

Wayne Gretzky:

Stats: 394 games, 356 goals, 558 assists, 914 points, 2.3 points per game

Playoff Stats: 52 games, 39 goals, 70 assists, 109 points, 2.0 points per game

Awards: 5 Hart, 4 Art Ross, 3 Lester B. Pearson, 1 Lady Byng, 1 Stanley Cup

Mario Lemieux:

Stats: 368 games, 300 goals, 415 assists, 715 points, 1.9 points per game

Playoff Stats: 11 games, 12 goals, 7 assists, 19 points, 1.7 points per game

Awards: 1 Hart, 2 Art Ross, 2 Lester B. Pearson, 1 Calder, 1 Canada Cup Gold Medal

Bobby Orr:

Stats: 328 games, 115 goals, 280 assists, 395 points, 1.2 points per game

Playoff Stats: 35 games, 15 goals, 26 assists, 42 points, 1.2 points per game

Awards: 4 Norris, 2 Hart, 1 Art Ross, 2 Rocket Richard, 1 Calder, 1 Conn Smythe, 1 Stanley Cup

Sidney Crosby:

Stats: 370 games, 183 goals, 323 assists, 506 points, 1.3 points per game

Stats: 62 games, 30 goals, 52 assists, 82 points, 1.3 points per game

Awards: 1 Hart, 1 Art Ross, 1 Lester B. Pearson, 1 Rocket Richard, 1 Stanley Cup, 1 Olympic Gold Medal

Alex Ovechkin:

Stats: 396 games, 269 goals, 260 assists, 529 points, 1.3 points per game

Playoff Stats: 28 games, 20 goals, 20 assists, 40 points, 1.4 points per game

Awards: 2 Hart, 1 Art Ross, 2 Lester B. Pearson, 2 Rocket Richard, 1 Calder, 1 World Championship Gold Medals

Mike Bossy:

Stats: 387 games, 305 goals, 188 assists, 575 points, 1.4 points per game

Playoff Stats: 70 games, 52 goals, 45 assists, 97 points, 1.3 points per game

Awards: 1 Calder, 3 Stanley Cups

Jean Beliveau:

Stats: 256 games, 135 goals, 149 assists, 284 points, 1.1 points per game

Playoff Stats: 42 games, 26 goals, 35 assists, 61 points, 1.4 points per game

Awards: 1 Hart, 1 Art Ross, would have won 1 Rocket Richard Trophies if they existed, 2 Stanley Cups

Maurice Richard:

Stats: 222 games, 159 goals, 98 assists, 257 points, 1.1 points per game

Playoff Stats: 34 games, 31 goals, 16 assists, 47 points, 1.3 points per game

Awards: 1 Hart, would have won 2 Rocket Richard Trophies if they existed, 2 Stanley Cups

Terry Sawchuk:

Stats: 277 games, 537 goals against, 1.94 GAA 159 wins, 64 losses, 54 ties, 45 shutouts

Playoff Stats: 32 games, 59 goals against, 1.84 GAA, 20 wins, 12 losses, 8 shutouts

Awards: 2 Vezina, 1 Calder

Dominik Hasek:

Stats: 152 games, 321 goals against, 2.1 GAA 73 wins, 48 losses, 19 ties, 13 shutouts

Playoff Stats: 19 games, 43 goals against, 2.2 GAA, 5 wins, 10 losses, 2 shutouts

Awards: 2 Vezina, 1 Jennings

Click to read more...

 

[pnep]

"HHOF Monitor" PTS First 5 NHL Seasons
(without players who started pro career in NHA, PCHA, WCHL/WHL)

Player|POS|Seasons|NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
Wayne "The Great One" Gretzky |C|1979-84|2828.00
Bobby "Number Four" Orr |D|1966-71|1887.65
Alexander "Ovie" Ovechkin |LW|2005-10|~1867
Terry "Ukey" Sawchuk |G|1949-55|1855.50
Mario "The Magnificent" Lemieux |C|1984-89|1731.00
Ken "Octopus" Dryden |G|1970-77|1715.50
Jean "Le Gros Bill" Beliveau |C|1950-58|1565.00
Bill "The Mirror Man" Durnan |G|1943-48|1459.00
Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek |G|1938-43|1424.50
Mike "The Boss" Bossy |RW|1977-82|1372.00
Tony "Tony O" Esposito |G|1968-74|1363.50
Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz |C|1923-28|1316.00
Jacques "Jake The Snake" Plante |G|1952-58|1300.00
Maurice "The Rocket" Richard |RW|1942-47|1293.50
Nels "Old Poison" Stewart |C|1925-30|1257.00
Dominik "The Dominator" Hasek |G|1990-97|1206.00
Bryan "Trots" Trottier |C|1975-80|1188.50
Sidney "Sid The Kid" Crosby |C|2005-10|~1176
Brett "The Golden Brett" Hull |RW|1985-92|1164.50
Evgeni "Gino" Malkin |C|2006-10|~1154 *
Cecil "Babe" Dye |RW|1919-24|1144.00
C.J. Syl "Slippery Syl" Apps |C|1936-41|1138.50
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson |G|1928-33|1103.50
Bobby "The Golden Jet" Hull |LW|1957-62|1103.50
Gordie "Lefty" Drillon |RW|1936-41|1059.50
Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin |D|1973-78|1047.70
Charlie "Big Blue Bomber" Conacher |RW|1929-34|1042.00
Glenn "Mr. Goalie" Hall |G|1952-60|1018.50
Stan "Stosh" Mikita |C|1958-64|1010.00
Leonard "Red" Kelly |D|1947-52|950.70
Bernie "Boom-Boom" Geoffrion |RW|1950-56|946.00
Paul "Coff" Coffey|D|1980-85|925.25
Max "Dipsy Doodle Dandy From Delisle" Bentley |C|1940-47|920.50
Ed "The Eagle" Belfour |G|1988-95|917.00
Patrick "St Patrick" Roy |G|1984-90|915.50
Bryan Sr. "Hex" Hextall |RW|1936-42|912.50
Doug "Dandy Doug" Bentley |LW|1939-44|903.00
Alec "The Ottawa Fireman" Connell |G|1924-29|866.00
David "Sweeney" Schriner |LW|1934-39|837.50
Paul "The Sharpshooter" Kariya |LW|1994-99|823.50
Jari "The Flying Finn" Kurri |RW|1980-85|822.00
Guy "The Flower" Lafleur |RW|1971-76|803.00
Jacques "Lappy" Laperriere |D|1962-68|800.25

* - 4 Seasons
​

 

[jkrx]

"HHOF Monitor" PTS First 5 NHL Seasons
(without players who started pro career in NHA, PCHA, WCHL/WHL)

Player|POS|Seasons|NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
Wayne "The Great One" Gretzky |C|1979-84|2828.00
Bobby "Number Four" Orr |D|1966-71|1887.65
Terry "Ukey" Sawchuk |G|1949-55|1855.50
Mario "The Magnificent" Lemieux |C|1984-89|1731.00
Ken "Octopus" Dryden |G|1970-77|1715.50
Jean "Le Gros Bill" Beliveau |C|1950-58|1565.00
Bill "The Mirror Man" Durnan |G|1943-48|1459.00
Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek |G|1938-43|1424.50
Alexander "Ovie" Ovechkin |LW|2005-09|1420 *
Mike "The Boss" Bossy |RW|1977-82|1372.00
Tony "Tony O" Esposito |G|1968-74|1363.50
Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz |C|1923-28|1316.00
Jacques "Jake The Snake" Plante |G|1952-58|1300.00
Maurice "The Rocket" Richard |RW|1942-47|1293.50
Nels "Old Poison" Stewart |C|1925-30|1257.00
Dominik "The Dominator" Hasek |G|1990-97|1206.00
Bryan "Trots" Trottier |C|1975-80|1188.50
Brett "The Golden Brett" Hull |RW|1985-92|1164.50
Cecil "Babe" Dye |RW|1919-24|1144.00
C.J. Syl "Slippery Syl" Apps |C|1936-41|1138.50
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson |G|1928-33|1103.50
Bobby "The Golden Jet" Hull |LW|1957-62|1103.50
Evgeni "Gino" Malkin |C|2006-09|1100 **
Gordie "Lefty" Drillon |RW|1936-41|1059.50
Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin |D|1973-78|1047.70
Charlie "Big Blue Bomber" Conacher |RW|1929-34|1042.00
Glenn "Mr. Goalie" Hall |G|1952-60|1018.50
Stan "Stosh" Mikita |C|1958-64|1010.00
Leonard "Red" Kelly |D|1947-52|950.70
Bernie "Boom-Boom" Geoffrion |RW|1950-56|946.00
Paul "Coff" Coffey|D|1980-85|925.25
Max "Dipsy Doodle Dandy From Delisle Bentley |C|1940-47|920.50
Ed "The Eagle" Belfour |G|1988-95|917.00
Patrick "St Patrick" Roy |G|1984-90|915.50
Bryan Sr. "Hex" Hextall |RW|1936-42|912.50
Doug "Dandy Doug" Bentley |LW|1939-44|903.00
Alec "The Ottawa Fireman" Connell |G|1924-29|866.00
David "Sweeney" Schriner |LW|1934-39|837.50
Paul "The Sharpshooter" Kariya |LW|1994-99|823.50
Jari "The Flying Finn" Kurri |RW|1980-85|822.00
Sidney "Sid The Kid" Crosby |C|2005-09|820 *
Guy "The Flower" Lafleur |RW|1971-76|803.00
Jacques "Lappy" Laperriere |D|1962-68|800.25

* - 4 Seasons
** - 3 Seasons​

CAnt you post this list in some of the numerous crosby vs ovie threads?

 

[Epsilon]

It's definitely an interesting question, although it might be even better to wait until this year's NHL awards are announced. I think Ovechkin is going to pick up his 2nd Pearson/Lindsay, while Henrik Sedin is going to win the Hart.

 

[Big Phil]

It's definitely an interesting question, although it might be even better to wait until this year's NHL awards are announced. I think Ovechkin is going to pick up his 2nd Pearson/Lindsay, while Henrik Sedin is going to win the Hart.

You mean his 3rd right?

Anyways I was just thinking this as well. I was going to wait until the NHL Awards were over to post it but it's safe to say that either one of Crosby/Ovechkin win either the Pearson or Hart, if not both. Not a fan of Sedin winning either.

That being said I have often thought that there at least two forwards for sure who have had better starts to their careers. Gretzky and Lemieux. I know on the Polls board someone was making a case for Ovechkin, but the jump Lemieux made in his 4th and 5th years are staggering even without much of a playoff resume.

Beliveau would be the only other forward that I think has a chance against them and to be honest I think Crosby and Ovechkin might have him beat, although it would be interesting conversation.

Other than that Orr would be the only defenseman I can think of. It all depends with Orr. Is he a lot like Lemieux in this case? His first three years from 1966-'69 are bested by Crosby and Ovechkin IMO. But he cranks it up about 100 notches with his last two in '70 and '71. Does that put him over the top? Probably.

That leaves Sawchuk IMO. His first 5 years included 3 Cups, and either a 1st or 2nd all-star each year. Not bad. Beats Dryden by my book and even beats Roy.

So this is my list in the first 5 years:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Sawchuk/Crosby/Ovechkin
Bossy
Beliveau

Let the debate begin

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Why do we need to wait until the awards are doled out? We all saw what they did this season. If you think Lemieux's first five years were better than Crosby's right now, is Crosby being presented with a trophy next month suddenly going to alter your opinion?

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Alex Ovechkin:

Stats: 396 games, 269 goals, 260 assists, 529 points, 1.3 points per game

Playoff Stats: 28 games, 20 goals, 20 assists, 40 points, 1.4 points per game

Awards: 2 Hart, 1 Art Ross, 2 Lester B. Pearson, 2 Rocket Richard, 1 Calder, 2 World Hockey Championship Gold Medals

Ovechkin only has one World Championship Gold-unless you're already counting this year!

 

[Reds4Life]

Apples and oranges.
Crosby and Ovechkin are nowhere near Lemieux or Gretzky or Orr. I mean, they have been outscored by Henrik Sedin. Hart trophy is a joke, it is a best forward award now. Both Crosby and Ovechkin are media darlings and are overrated and overhyped. They are not clearly the best players in the World.

 

[Ilya Kovalchoke*]

Apples and oranges.
Crosby and Ovechkin are nowhere near Lemieux or Gretzky or Orr. I mean, they have been outscored by Henrik Sedin. Hart trophy is a joke, it is a best forward award now. Both Crosby and Ovechkin are media darlings and are overrated and overhyped. They are not clearly the best players in the World.

Sure they are not Lemieux and Gretzky but other than those two and a few others I wasn't able to think of others who were more successful in their first five years.

Sure they weren't the unquestionable best players this year. But over the last 5 years I don't think anyone has been close to as impressive as those 2. Also don't forgot they are still very young players who likely haven't even entered their primes yet.

edit: Thanks Uncle Rotter, OP updated. For some reason I thought he had won two.

 

[jkrx]

Sure they are not Lemieux and Gretzky but other than those two and a few others I wasn't able to think of others who were more successful in their first five years.

Sure they weren't the unquestionable best players this year. But over the last 5 years I don't think anyone has been close to as impressive as those 2. Also don't forgot they are still very young players who likely haven't even entered their primes yet.

edit: Thanks Uncle Rotter, OP updated. For some reason I thought he had won two.

and both might not even see their primes because of career ending injuries. Crosby for being Crosby and Ovie for being a bit naughty sometimes.

 

[Ilya Kovalchoke*]

and both might not even see their primes because of career ending injuries. Crosby for being Crosby and Ovie for being a bit naughty sometimes.

Yeah maybe who knows. The question though is: where do their first 5 seasons rank?

As much as I keep hearing that they are overrated I don't see too many players who have had better starts to their careers.

 

[Big Phil]

Yeah maybe who knows. The question though is: where do their first 5 seasons rank?

As much as I keep hearing that they are overrated I don't see too many players who have had better starts to their careers.

Exactly there isnt. These guys are not overrated at all. Henrik Sedin shouldn't have outscored them this year but he did it by three points. Gretzky and Lemieux would not have let that happen we all agree but then again these guys aren't at that level. I said it in the other post, by my count this is my rough estimate:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Sawchuk/Crosby/Ovechkin
Bossy
Beliveau

 

[Ziostilon]

so i can say confidently that Ovechkin is already better than Maurice Richard?

 

[octopi]

"HHOF Monitor" PTS First 5 NHL Seasons
(without players who started pro career in NHA, PCHA, WCHL/WHL)

Player|POS|Seasons|NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
Wayne "The Great One" Gretzky |C|1979-84|2828.00
Bobby "Number Four" Orr |D|1966-71|1887.65
Terry "Ukey" Sawchuk |G|1949-55|1855.50
Mario "The Magnificent" Lemieux |C|1984-89|1731.00
Ken "Octopus" Dryden |G|1970-77|1715.50
Jean "Le Gros Bill" Beliveau |C|1950-58|1565.00
Bill "The Mirror Man" Durnan |G|1943-48|1459.00
Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek |G|1938-43|1424.50
Alexander "Ovie" Ovechkin |LW|2005-09|1420 *
Mike "The Boss" Bossy |RW|1977-82|1372.00
Tony "Tony O" Esposito |G|1968-74|1363.50
Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz |C|1923-28|1316.00
Jacques "Jake The Snake" Plante |G|1952-58|1300.00
Maurice "The Rocket" Richard |RW|1942-47|1293.50
Nels "Old Poison" Stewart |C|1925-30|1257.00
Dominik "The Dominator" Hasek |G|1990-97|1206.00
Bryan "Trots" Trottier |C|1975-80|1188.50
Brett "The Golden Brett" Hull |RW|1985-92|1164.50
Cecil "Babe" Dye |RW|1919-24|1144.00
C.J. Syl "Slippery Syl" Apps |C|1936-41|1138.50
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson |G|1928-33|1103.50
Bobby "The Golden Jet" Hull |LW|1957-62|1103.50
Evgeni "Gino" Malkin |C|2006-09|1100 **

etc

* - 4 Seasons
** - 3 Seasons

What are these all ranked on?

 

[Ilya Kovalchoke*]

so i can say confidently that Ovechkin is already better than Maurice Richard?

We aren't really looking at who is the best player, but who have been the best players through their first 5 years.

Obviously Richards stats are harder to compare due to the era but for what they are worth here they are:

Maurice Richard:

Stats: 222 games, 159 goals, 98 assists, 257 points, 1.1 points per game

Playoff Stats: 34 games, 31 goals, 16 assists, 47 points, 1.3 points per game

Awards: 1 Hart, would have won 2 Rocket Richard Trophies if they existed, 2 Stanley Cups

edit: added some of the players Big Phil mentioned to the OP.

 

[Big Phil]

so i can say confidently that Ovechkin is already better than Maurice Richard?

Yeah it's arguable. Richard's first year was riddled with injury. But his next 4 were spectacluar. I think what might set him apart from Ovy is his playoff record which even at that time was insane. He has a Hart and also led the playoffs in goals three times and twice in the regular season. He had two Cups as well.

At the end of the day it is a good debate and I can see both sides for sure. If the Rocket has a full season in his rookie year I think he's cleanly ahead of Ovy. But without it.........hmm I don't know

 

[Reds4Life]

Exactly there isnt. These guys are not overrated at all. Henrik Sedin shouldn't have outscored them this year but he did it by three points. Gretzky and Lemieux would not have let that happen we all agree but then again these guys aren't at that level. I said it in the other post, by my count this is my rough estimate:

They are. I mean, they are great players, but not on their own level. Many players are very close to them, equal, or better on any given night. Ovechkin may be best goalscorer, but he sure is not the best overall player. Crosby is a much better two-way player and better overall as far as I am concerned, but again, not clearly the best in the league (How is either of them clearly better than Getzlaf/Thornton/Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Sedin or Toews for example?). They are elite, but media portraits them as the best players in the league, by far. Also, how is Ovechkin a Hart nominee? That's a joke and he only got that nomination due to media bias/money.

 

[Big Phil]

They are. I mean, they are great players, but not on their own level. Many players are very close to them, equal, or better on any given night. Ovechkin may be best goalscorer, but he sure is not the best overall player. Crosby is a much better two-way player and better overall as far as I am concerned, but again, not clearly the best in the league (How is either of them clearly better than Getzlaf/Thornton/Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Sedin or Toews for example?). They are elite, but media portraits them as the best players in the league, by far. Also, how is Ovechkin a Hart nominee? That's a joke and he only got that nomination due to media bias/money.

All of those players you mentioned are fabulous. But in the last 5 years has anyone of them had the careers of Crosby and Ovechkin? The closest might be Thornton, or Zetterberg just because of the playoffs. But year after year after year? I think they are clearly on their own right now. It is their NHL.

Toews? Look you are forcing me to say something negative about the kid and I hate that, but the truth is while he has proven to be a big game player in the Olympics and the playoffs the truth is he hasn't won anything yet and has only had a career high of 69 points so far. Even if he wins a Cup this year he still isn't Crosby.

Not to nitpick, but Crosby and Ovechkin aren't even in their primes yet and this is who the points leaders are the last 5 years:

Ovechkin 529
Thornton 510
Crosby 506
Heatley 444
Datsyuk 438

The only one in the same stratosphere as them is Thornton and we can all agree that his playoff resume pushes him far, far, back behind them, not to mention his all around game isn't quite the same. And let's face it, Thornton is a great player, a future Hall of Famer who has been in his prime post lockout. That should tell you something.

Here is PPG post lockout:

Crosby 1.36
Ovechkin 1.34
Thornton 1.26
Malkin 1.23
Jagr 1.18

Again who is close to them? Thornton? We've established in my previous paragraph that Thornton is not either one of them. Jagr is retired from the NHL and Malkin is commonly considered the 3rd best player in the game, rightly so. Seems to me they both are still a notch ahead.

Let's face it, we know Crosby's playoff career already is spectacular so in what area would any other player compare with him post lockout if not Ovechkin and to a lesser extent Malkin?

 

[Reds4Life]

All of those players you mentioned are fabulous. But in the last 5 years has anyone of them had the careers of Crosby and Ovechkin? The closest might be Thornton, or Zetterberg just because of the playoffs. But year after year after year? I think they are clearly on their own right now. It is their NHL.

Toews? Look you are forcing me to say something negative about the kid and I hate that, but the truth is while he has proven to be a big game player in the Olympics and the playoffs the truth is he hasn't won anything yet and has only had a career high of 69 points so far. Even if he wins a Cup this year he still isn't Crosby.

Not to nitpick, but Crosby and Ovechkin aren't even in their primes yet and this is who the points leaders are the last 5 years:

Ovechkin 529
Thornton 510
Crosby 506
Heatley 444
Datsyuk 438

The only one in the same stratosphere as them is Thornton and we can all agree that his playoff resume pushes him far, far, back behind them, not to mention his all around game isn't quite the same. And let's face it, Thornton is a great player, a future Hall of Famer who has been in his prime post lockout. That should tell you something.

Here is PPG post lockout:

Crosby 1.36
Ovechkin 1.34
Thornton 1.26
Malkin 1.23
Jagr 1.18

Again who is close to them? Thornton? We've established in my previous paragraph that Thornton is not either one of them. Jagr is retired from the NHL and Malkin is commonly considered the 3rd best player in the game, rightly so. Seems to me they both are still a notch ahead.

Let's face it, we know Crosby's playoff career already is spectacular so in what area would any other player compare with him post lockout if not Ovechkin and to a lesser extent Malkin?

They are best point-scorers. That does not mean best overall players (not just forwards). Ovechkin provides virtually nothing apart from scoring, maybe some hitting, which is useless in most cases. Crosby is better defensively than Ovechkin, but Zetterberg owned him head-to-head.
Look at Bryzgalov or Miller, far more important players to their teams than Ovechkin. And Malkin 3rd best? Heh, he is a floater, sometimes he plays like God, other times he is invisible, it seems to be 50:50, you never know. Anyhow, Sedin outscored them both, while playing in the Western conference. My point is that there is no such thing as "big 3", Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin are not clearly the best players in the World. Awards do not tell the whole story. Hart trophy in particular is pretty much Art Ross 2.0 by now.

 

[SidGenoMario]

Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin are not clearly the best players in the World. Awards do not tell the whole story. Hart trophy in particular is pretty much Art Ross 2.0 by now.

Ha. He showed you STATS to prove to you how far ahead Crosby and Ovie are over the other players in the league, if you look at the past 5 years as a whole.

And you ignore everything he says, and start talking about the Hart trophy (Which he never even brought up).

Look at the numbers. Look at the leaderboards, year by year. No one in the league is as consistently elite as Crosby and Ovechkin. There's really no debate there.

Also, how are HHOF monitor points tabulated? It really doesn't make any sense that Malkin would be THAT far ahead of Crosby, if at all.

 

[shazariahl]

They are best point-scorers. That does not mean best overall players (not just forwards). Ovechkin provides virtually nothing apart from scoring, maybe some hitting, which is useless in most cases. Crosby is better defensively than Ovechkin, but Zetterberg owned him head-to-head.
Look at Bryzgalov or Miller, far more important players to their teams than Ovechkin. And Malkin 3rd best? Heh, he is a floater, sometimes he plays like God, other times he is invisible, it seems to be 50:50, you never know. Anyhow, Sedin outscored them both, while playing in the Western conference. My point is that there is no such thing as "big 3", Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin are not clearly the best players in the World. Awards do not tell the whole story. Hart trophy in particular is pretty much Art Ross 2.0 by now.

I understand what you're saying, and I think you have a very legitimate point, about others in the league not being that far back. But I think you're holding these guys to a Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr type of standard, where they were just clearly the best, and stood above the rest of the league like gods among men. These guys aren't at that level, and I don't think most the people here are trying to say they are.

But what most of us do seem to be saying, is that over the past 5 years, Crosby and Ovechkin have been the best players in the league (along with Thornton, as was already shown). But there isn't this huge gap like there was between Gretzky and everyone else, or like Orr and his generation. These guys aren't as dominant - other people can outscore them in any given year. Other people can win trophies. But over the last 5 years, they've always been in the mix. Maybe they haven't been the best in each of those 5 years, but when you look at it... this year Sedin wins the Art. But Crosby/Ovechkin are right behind. And last year Sedin wasn't a factor. Last year Crosby/Ovechkin didn't win either. Malkin did. But again, Ovechkin was in the hunt, and finished 2nd. But Malkin wasn't so great this year.

There have been years where others have come along to take their crowns, but they don't seem to have the consistancy that Ovechkin and Crosby do. Of course, those 2 don't have the sheer dominance and consistancy that people like Gretzky did. But most of us aren't trying to say they do. They're great players, and overall the two best offensive players in the game right now. Just take them for that, and don't try holding them up to some impossible standard.

 

[pnep]

Also, how are HHOF monitor points tabulated? It really doesn't make any sense that Malkin would be THAT far ahead of Crosby, if at all.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=6158194#post6158194

 

[Ilya Kovalchoke*]

They are. I mean, they are great players, but not on their own level. Many players are very close to them, equal, or better on any given night. Ovechkin may be best goalscorer, but he sure is not the best overall player. Crosby is a much better two-way player and better overall as far as I am concerned, but again, not clearly the best in the league (How is either of them clearly better than Getzlaf/Thornton/Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Sedin or Toews for example?). They are elite, but media portraits them as the best players in the league, by far. Also, how is Ovechkin a Hart nominee? That's a joke and he only got that nomination due to media bias/money.

Ok lets break this down.

Sedin - He has had one great year this past season but once again he doesn't go far in the playoffs. Over the last 5 years his regular season body of work hasn't been anywhere near Sid or Alex. And he has never had an impressive playoff run.

Zetterberg - Has only scored 70 points each of the last 2 years. He is less than a point per game player in the regular season and playoffs. He has only won one major award. Doesn't compare at all to Ovy or Sid.

Toews - Has never even scored 70 points. Hasn't won a major award and his playoff stats aren't #8 or #87.

Thornton - Only one on this list who can even regularly keep up with these two points wise. But his awful playoff and Olympic performances and weak overall game keep him from being comparable.

Datsyuk - Never scored 100 points. Bad bad playoff numbers. Only scored 70 points this season. Zetterberg is the better of the two.

Getzlaf - Has had one semi-elite season where he put up 90 points. But he is basically a 70 point player. Playoff number aren't impressive. No awards.

A case can not legitimately be made for any of this players to be better than Sid or Alex. And over the last 5 years it's not even close.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Nicklas Backstrom

Overlooked in this discussion but coming on very strong - Nicklas Backstrom.

Within two season it will be a toss-up between him and Sidney Crosby.

 

[Ilya Kovalchoke*]

Overlooked in this discussion but coming on very strong - Nicklas Backstrom.

Within two season it will be a toss-up between him and Sidney Crosby.

To have a better first 5 years than Ovechkin or Crosby he would have to put up more than 110 points for the next two years to make up for not having elite numbers in his first two years. He would need to win several awards, lead the league in scoring and improve his playoff points per game. This is really Backstroms first elite offensive year. By their 3rd seasons Ovechkin had a 65 goal season under his belt and Crosby lead the league in scoring as a teenager.