saskriders
Can't Hold Leads
The populations are still growing, not shrinking. And this year is an anomaly due to Covid.
When will the league be interested in expanding again?
- Thread starter saskriders
- Start date
The populations are still growing, not shrinking. And this year is an anomaly due to Covid.
greatwhitenorth
Registered User
- Dec 25, 2019
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Name checks out, secondary assist awarded.
I'll take it!
Also, congrats to the guy who made me Show ignored Content on page 2 to figure out which of the old megathread fiends had been woken up.
Not a surprise.
KevFu
Registered User
KevFu
Registered User
The NHL would consider:
Houston and Atlanta despite the NBA
Austin
San Diego
Hartford
Virginia Beach/Hampton Roads
Riverside/Ontario
Key word being CONSIDER.
I separate out houston and Atlanta because the NBA team controls the revenue from the arena. Thus, any chance of a team in those 2 markets depends solely on the nba owner. Houston and Atl didn’t put in a bid when Vegas and Quebec did back in like 2015. If they are not interested the nhl isn’t going into those 2 markets.
doubt those other US markets would make sense given what the price tag is for an expansion team. Those markets seem like they would be in the lower 1/3 of nhl markets when it comes to value. Thus the Expansion fee could be too great for them.
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
NFL has 32, NBA 30, MLB 30, NHL 32
NFL, NBA and MLB are all more popular stateside overall than the NHL
The NHL will take a few years to sort out some clubs that were struggling before Covid hit and will continue after we can start attending games again
NFL, NBA and MLB are all more popular stateside overall than the NHL
The NHL will take a few years to sort out some clubs that were struggling before Covid hit and will continue after we can start attending games again
30 years can go by quickly in the life of a league.
Worth considering that the last NHL expansion before Vegas came in was 17 years. MLB is at 23 years and NFL and NBA are almost at 20, each.
Also, population change is only one of several barriers.
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
But isn't it a bit too late with the mega success of the new MLS team there?
And I think they won the championship in their second year or so? It's their third or fourth year of play now?
NHL is likely outta sight, outta mind for the ex-Thrshers fans who may have gravitated to MLS already?
Atlanta, like Houston is dependent on the NBA owner wanting a team so long as the current arena is being used. Which, given what has been going on in other cities with arenas built in the 1990's, is likely to remain the arena as teams/cities should be renovating them rather than building a new arena.
Unfortunately, for the NHL, the timing of their expansion process in 2015 when they opened up the bidding, only LV and QC applied. In 2015, ATL Hawks were sold to their current ownership group, and the Rockets were sold in 2017, thus the prior owner Les Alexander more interested in Divesting his sports empire vs adding to it.
Only thing we have heard from both markets is that the new Rockets owner would consider an NHL team for the "Right" price. So, he's not one of those people like Steve Ballmer who would pay a premium for a team, like he did for the Clippers.
A lot can change in 15 - 20 years, whenever the NHL wishes to expand again. NHL will likely have private, behind the scenes conversations with those 2 big markets about an NHL club in the future, that way they don't end up like in 2015 when there was no bid from those NBA markets.
Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
I meant to put my response in pink to indicate sarcasm. People see the TV audience of the area and think it will click--they thought like that the first two times. There was a bigger out cry the first time the NHL left then the second.
KevFu
Registered User
The disparity in popularity between NHL and other sports in the US doesn't really matter. Because hockey has an extra team in NY compared to everyone else, and 7 times the number of Canadian teams as NBA and MLB.
You don't have to sell out to be successful. You need 15,000 a night and corporate dollars to be successful. That's it. The Islanders were one of the worst financial teams for 30 years and what happened? They didn't go out of business. They didn't move to a new market. They didn't have a problem finding a new owner multiple times. They didn't lose franchise value.
That's why markets like Buffalo and Carolina are fine despite being relatively tiny.
KevFu
Registered User
Right, but the question was which cities the NHL would consider.
If a guy with two billion dollars calls, the NHL is picking up the phone and considering virtually anywhere.
BKIslandersFan
F*** off
KevFu
Registered User
Again, if a guy has about $2 billion and calls the NHL, they'd consider virtually anywhere.
How strongly, and how likely it is to happen? Totally depends.
You scoff at Virginia Beach/Hampton Roads, but they're the size of Nashville with ZERO pro teams as competition. They were the 5th place bid when the NHL expanded with four teams to MIN, CBJ, NASH and ATL. Google Hampton Roads Rhinos.
Hartford is small as a market, but the corporate dollars are there. And of course, the tradition.
And Inland Empire... is the size of Boston or San Francisco/Oakland (not counting San Jose). Bigger than Seattle, Detroit, etc. And growing at a higher rate than Boston and many other NHL markets. A team in Redlands would be outside the Kings/Ducks territorial rights.
If the NHL would consider San Diego, with 3.3 million people, and no NBA or NFL team.... then why wouldn't they consider Inland Empire with 4.6 million people and no NBA, NFL or MLB team?
How strongly, and how likely it is to happen? Totally depends.
You scoff at Virginia Beach/Hampton Roads, but they're the size of Nashville with ZERO pro teams as competition. They were the 5th place bid when the NHL expanded with four teams to MIN, CBJ, NASH and ATL. Google Hampton Roads Rhinos.
Hartford is small as a market, but the corporate dollars are there. And of course, the tradition.
And Inland Empire... is the size of Boston or San Francisco/Oakland (not counting San Jose). Bigger than Seattle, Detroit, etc. And growing at a higher rate than Boston and many other NHL markets. A team in Redlands would be outside the Kings/Ducks territorial rights.
If the NHL would consider San Diego, with 3.3 million people, and no NBA or NFL team.... then why wouldn't they consider Inland Empire with 4.6 million people and no NBA, NFL or MLB team?
CanadianCoyote
Registered User
Also crammed right between Boston and NY/NJ, so a new Hartford team would be the 5th most popular team in the region by default. Not exactly a great place for the NHL to be leaping into; I think AHL's probably the cap for Hartford for a while.
Remember, the Whalers were the lame duck for NHL fans in Hartford even back then. You saw loads more Bruins and Rangers fans even at the time the Whalers existed than you did actual Whalers fans; in a time where markets like Houston or Atlanta are available, what's the appeal of Hartford to the NHL over those kinds of big name markets besides "bringing the Whalers back"?
I don't think another NHL team in that corner is viable; you'd be better off looking at places like Indianapolis or one of Cleveland/Cincinnati for a mid-sized US city.
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TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
Look the state of Arizona has already said NO to any new arena funding in Arizona & the coyotes & Gary Bettmen where
They (Arizona) just approved a special taxing district for the Diamondbacks.
Arizona Approves Ballpark Sales Tax to Fund Chase Field Renovation
They (Arizona) have now allowed the sports teams in Arizona to open and operate their own sports betting parlors.
Arizona governor signs bill legalizing sports betting
AND in regards to the rhetoric in your previous post.... Glendale wants the Coyotes to stay and agree to a long term lease.
Glendale wants more commitment from AZ Coyotes, finally gets revenue
So please feel free to back out of the discussion until you get yourself up to date.
Golden_Jet
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2005
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Neither are moving but Calgary does need a new rink as Bettman has said.
RVACapsFan
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- May 31, 2018
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RVACapsFan
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- May 31, 2018
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TheLegend
Megathread Gadfly
There’s been a snag. There’s also a separate discussion thread here in BoH about it.
By which it seems to make sense that:
1/2 of teams could be in the ETZ
1/4 of teams could be in CTZ
1/4 of teams could be in MTZ/PTZ
Except that the places left with population in the CTZ are all in Texas, and Houston has a roadblock with their arena, so that offers some kind of limit, and the places left in the MTZ and PTZ are Portland, and then California.
So, it will be awhile, because nothing is really moving quickly on those fronts.
Some of the problems facing NHL expansion are:
Lack of decent revenue sharing and a big central revenue pool, which requires local revenue to be 'good' or the team loses lots of money. (This is the reason Seattle works).
Need for expensive arenas, which make the first ownership less lucrative.
Wisdom on the part of the league to keep a few markets available for relocation discussions (Quebec City?)
KevFu
Registered User
That logic doesn't fly with me. Everyone on the East Coast is close together. You could say the same thing about Philly being between DC/NY. The Baltimore Orioles between PHI/DC; the Mets being 8 miles from the richest team in sports, etc.
A Whaler return wouldn't make them the 5th most popular team in the region by default. For starters, there's a generation of NHL fans in Connecticut who WERE Whalers fans and only like one of those other four teams because their team left.
I don't think that's necessarily true, either. I wasn't watching a ton of Whaler games since I was in the Islanders/Devils local TV market on SportsChannel, and the odds of seeing the Whalers on national TV weren't great. But that's because they made bad trades and couldn't financially compete in the no-cap, no revenue sharing NHL of the late 80s, early 90s.
Winnipeg, Quebec and Minnesota couldn't compete financially in that era, either; but that doesn't mean those MARKETS aren't good. They couldn't compete because they had antiquated arenas without "modern" revenue streams.
Which brings me to the key point: The time period of the Whalers existence was while sports was changing from "sell them a ticket, get fans into the arena quickly, get them out quickly, sell them a beer and a hot dog" into a massive entertainment industry.
So people look at Hartford Whalers attendance like "14,230 average in 1987? And that's one of their better years? That market can't hold up. That's 29th in the NHL, and Coyotes/Panthers/Islanders/Senators level of "there's a massive problem there that needs to be addressed. Not what you want to add to your league"
But the era was different:
Average NHL attendance during the history of the Hurricanes: 17,089 (1997-2020)
Average NHL attendance during the history of the Whalers: 13,922 (1975-1997) (For two 22-year blocks)
The Whalers' 14,230 attendance in 1987 was ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE.
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