When will the league be interested in expanding again?

[DuckyGirard]

-Southern Ontario or Toronto2 is hugely unlikely because there is no way to get there - even a BELL/ROGERS divorce leaves one party with the most valuable piece (the Leafs), and therefore it's much more difficult to convince the other party to try to take a shot at it

The simple equation is moving the Leafs North of Downtown.

A gta2 being downtown would make it an automatic favorite of the baystreet types that now dominate the audience.

Uptown leafs would get a ton of interest for people who drive, not wanting to mess with parking etc. Currently a lot of casual are parking uptown and taking the subways.

 

[Cacciaguida]

Milwaukee had the second best TV ratings for non-NHL markets when the Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup in 2013.

There are correlating dips and rises in TV ratings for when the seasons the Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup in the 2010s that would indicate Milwaukee has a large number of Blackhawks fans.

I find it hard to mix facts with opinions and personal experience...

Doesn't Milwaukee have some of the better playoff TV rating for a non-NHL market in general?

I believe Connecticut and Wisconsin usually top those charts.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Doesn't Milwaukee have some of the better playoff TV rating for a non-NHL market in general?

I believe Connecticut and Wisconsin usually top those charts.

Milwaukee's varies. Generally it is fairly good, but there are dips and rises that correspond with the Chicago's Blackhawks playoff performances.

Connecticut's is also usually pretty good, but that is because the state is split between Boston Bruins and New York Rangers territory. Google Munson-Nixon, it is a very interesting read.

 

[aqib]

If you read more than one sentence of anything on that conversation you'd know I was talking about current NHL markets that draw heavily from nearby metro areas that don't have a NHL team and how those current NHL teams don't want to lose any of their market share and will fight any expansion team that goes nearby....

And if you ready my response you would know that I said a Cleveland team would have zero impact on the Blue Jackets as there is very little Blue Jackets following in Cleveland. Pittsburgh and Detroit are approximately the same distance from Cleveland as Columbus is and no one talks about a Cleveland team being a threat to them. There are a bunch of reasons why Cleveland won't get a team (primary market size and economy) but threatening Columbus isn't one of them.

 

[garbageteam]

The simple equation is moving the Leafs North of Downtown.

A gta2 being downtown would make it an automatic favorite of the baystreet types that now dominate the audience.

Uptown leafs would get a ton of interest for people who drive, not wanting to mess with parking etc. Currently a lot of casual are parking uptown and taking the subways.

The Leafs will get to be wherever they like and will always have the first and last say on who they will appeal to in Ontario. Any upstart Ontario team coming in this century, if ever, will have to carve out the niche of hockey fans not fully invested in the Leafs. It's just the way it is.

 

[Three On Zero]

We will see a relocation before we see another addition

 

[Jokerit 16]

We will see a relocation before we see another addition

Ottawa to Houston…

 

[KevFu]

In a vacuum you are correct. However, this is not a vacuum. Real world situations make expansion difficult at present, to wit:

-QC is less and less an option the higher the price goes
-Southern Ontario or Toronto2 is hugely unlikely because there is no way to get there - even a BELL/ROGERS divorce leaves one party with the most valuable piece (the Leafs), and therefore it's much more difficult to convince the other party to try to take a shot at it

-In the US, the potential markets are very few. In spite of what some posters here have said:
- Kansas City (the local city government, who own the arena), don't need a team in any way, so the team would have to survive on its own, and that's very unlikely to look possible for a potential owner in that market
-Milwaukee would have a small market region, and smaller business community to support it than other options.
-Really, any other place is too small with 2 exceptions
--Atlanta. Only one arena in town. Team would likely need to be owned by the owners of the Hawks. That MIGHT happen, but it sure doesn't look like it's happening soon.
--Houston. Same, only worse.

In short, while it would be a bad bet to bet against if the time frame were 50 years, expansion isn't happening again any time soon.

All the arenas that opened in the 1990s are now approaching end of lease, and all their NBA teams will be looking for new cribs, which presents the opportunity to get an NHL into them.

So that puts a place like Portland in play, also San Antonio.

Plus you have places like
13. Inland Empire. Being the first big four team in Inland Empire could be a good idea.
17. San Diego, with no NBA or NFL team.
29. Austin, with no NBA or NFL team.

 

[Mike Louis]

Ottawa to Houston…

There’s interested local buyers in Ottawa that want to keep the team there. The main issue in Ottawa is the current owner and once he’s out of the picture, the stadium situation in Ottawa solves itself. I suspect that Houston like Quebec City is being kept in reserve as a relocation option / threat in case the bottom falls out in a few markets.

 

[oknazevad]

All the arenas that opened in the 1990s are now approaching end of lease, and all their NBA teams will be looking for new cribs, which presents the opportunity to get an NHL into them.

So that puts a place like Portland in play, also San Antonio.

Plus you have places like
13. Inland Empire. Being the first big four team in Inland Empire could be a good idea.
17. San Diego, with no NBA or NFL team.
29. Austin, with no NBA or NFL team.

Except the trend in arenas seems to be renovation, not replacement, as seen in Phoenix and Atlanta. Unlike the buildings of the 60s and 70s which the arenas of the 90s replaced, the more recent buildings have much better basic build quality and basic bowl layout that provides a stronger basis for renovation than the more bare bones concrete and steel of their predecessors.

 

[MNNumbers]

Except the trend in arenas seems to be renovation, not replacement, as seen in Phoenix and Atlanta. Unlike the buildings of the 60s and 70s which the arenas of the 90s replaced, the more recent buildings have much better basic build quality and basic layout that provides a stronger basis for renovation than the more bare bones concrete and steel of their predecessors.

And, the real reason for the push to new arenas was associated with $$. Club seating, etc. It is not at all clear what changes in desings and/or marketing could be made to modern arenas which could make their owners more money.

 

[OG6ix]

And, the real reason for the push to new arenas was associated with $$. Club seating, etc. It is not at all clear what changes in desings and/or marketing could be made to modern arenas which could make their owners more money.

Agreed - there was a dramatic change from the older arenas vs the new Club seat corporate sponsorship models. I think the changes coming in the future are renovations to air quality due to covid. Another change I see happening is wider concourses with built in bars/social areas (MLB ballparks have been doing this and the new Islanders Arena has this) but not sure if it's enough to ask for a brand new Arena.

 

[oknazevad]

Agreed - there was a dramatic change from the older arenas vs the new Club seat corporate sponsorship models. I think the changes coming in the future are renovations to air quality due to covid. Another change I see happening is wider concourses with built in bars/social areas (MLB ballparks have been doing this and the new Islanders Arena has this) but not sure if it's enough to ask for a brand new Arena.

Yeah, those shared gathering areas in the concourses are the sorts of things that the renovations we've seen have focused on in recent years. Even the updates to Staples Center mentioned when the Lakers re-upped their lease are of that type. The seating bowls themselves have for the most part not been found wanting, and as this easily the second most significant structural element (behind only the roof), so if the seating bowl is seen as overall good, and only tweaks are needed, then they won't bother looking for a new arena. And even then the extensive rebuild of the seating bowl at MSG is still considered renovation. (Though that's more about the NYC real estate market than anything. I still want it moved. Penn Station is a thousand times more important.) Atlanta's renovations were also pretty extensive, but that's more correcting the original design mistakes. Again, though, it allows them to not have to build an entirely new arena when the roof and real estate are still perfectly fine.

 

[CanadianCoyote]

Ottawa to Houston…

Who's the NHL going to let buy the Senators to move them to Houston? Certainly not Fertitta, he was run off with his tail between his legs and ran his mouth like a certain Jimmy Balsillie did.

And we already know there are interested parties in Ottawa wanting to keep the Sens in town; they won't sell for relocation unless there's nobody willing to buy the team and keep it in the current market.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Who's the NHL going to let buy the Senators to move them to Houston? Certainly not Fertitta, he was run off with his tail between his legs and ran his mouth like a certain Jimmy Balsillie did.

Thats not what happened.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

The simple equation is moving the Leafs North of Downtown.

A gta2 being downtown would make it an automatic favorite of the baystreet types that now dominate the audience.

Uptown leafs would get a ton of interest for people who drive, not wanting to mess with parking etc. Currently a lot of casual are parking uptown and taking the subways.

"Solution is simply to build another arena in an area thats less likely to be as profitable booking concerts as Scotiabank Arena"

You got 1 billion dollars to build one?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Thats not what happened.

Tilman Fertitta met with NHL officials in November of 2017. It was by all accounts a very short meeting with Bettman and Daley, especially after months of Tilman Fertitta saying he wants the NHL in Houston.

He then says “As I’ve mentioned before, I’m very interested in the possibility of bringing the NHL to Houston, but it will have to be a deal that works for my organization, the City, fans and the NHL throughout the region, and the NHL Board of Governors. We are in the very early stage of evaluating what opportunities may exist but look forward to the thorough process.” Pretty much saying the NHL told him to pay the going rate or get lost, which is what every insider said came of the meeting.

In 2019 he then comes out and makes a ridiculous comment how hockey doesn't work south of the Mason-Dixon and hasn't made much more than a comment or two since.

If that isn't running away with your tail between your legs, I don't know what is.

 

[tank44]

Ottawa to Houston…

Also to consider these days is the Canada TV contract and the cash cow that it is likely based on the 7 Canadian teams. Does losing Ottawa and a fraction of the larger Canadian tv contract offset a likely smaller margin gain for adding Houston to the tv contract?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Tilman Fertitta met with NHL officials in November of 2017. It was by all accounts a very short meeting with Bettman and Daley, especially after months of Tilman Fertitta saying he wants the NHL in Houston.

He then says “As I’ve mentioned before, I’m very interested in the possibility of bringing the NHL to Houston, but it will have to be a deal that works for my organization, the City, fans and the NHL throughout the region, and the NHL Board of Governors. We are in the very early stage of evaluating what opportunities may exist but look forward to the thorough process.” Pretty much saying the NHL told him to pay the going rate or get lost, which is what every insider said came of the meeting.

In 2019 he then comes out and makes a ridiculous comment how hockey doesn't work south of the Mason-Dixon and hasn't made much more than a comment or two since.

If that isn't running away with your tail between your legs, I don't know what is.

Hes broke amd cant afford a team, thats what happened. Stop overthinking things.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Hes broke amd cant afford a team, thats what happened. Stop overthinking things.

You do realize what "tail between the legs" means, right? It means defeated or ashamed.

He makes a huge deal about wanting a NHL team. Says he thinks the city is right, that he's right, pretty much how he can't imagine why the NHL wouldn't give him a cheap team. In some interviews, he's actually making it about himself rather than Houston.

Then he has said meeting. The big guy tells Fertitta to get lost so quickly it is actually funny. He has opened up his big yapper twice since that meeting and one of them was to say that he doesn't hockey works south of the Mason-Dixon.

That's not overthinking things. That literally the dictionary definition of what happened.

 

[aqib]

Hes broke amd cant afford a team, thats what happened. Stop overthinking things.

Man I wish I could be broke like this: Tilman Fertitta

Here is a tutorial so that you don't make statements like that in the future: Let Me Google That

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Man I wish I could be broke like this: Tilman Fertitta

Here is a tutorial so that you don't make statements like that in the future: Let Me Google That

He lost a lot of money during pandemic and even before that he spent a lot of money buying the Rockets. So yea, relatively speaking he’s cash broke.


Maybe you should try not spouting rubbish like you usually do.

 

[aqib]

He lost a lot of money during pandemic and even before that he spent a lot of money buying the Rockets. So yea, relatively speaking he’s cash broke.


Maybe you should try not spouting rubbish like you usually do.

He spent $2.2 billion buying the Rockets and was worth $4.6 billion. While the pandemic probably hurt his businesses the comments Barclay Donaldson referenced far predate the pandemic. So maybe you should get your facts straight before you accuse others of posting rubbish. At least I have facts to back up what I post.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

He spent $2.2 billion buying the Rockets and was worth $4.6 billion. While the pandemic probably hurt his businesses the comments Barclay Donaldson referenced far predate the pandemic. So maybe you should get your facts straight before you accuse others of posting rubbish. At least I have facts to back up what I post.

He doesn’t actually have $4.6B in cash, genius. That’s his net worth including all the properties and businesses he owns.

Go spread your pointless nationalism, grown ups are talking.

 

[aqib]

He doesn’t actually have $4.6B in cash, genius. That’s his net worth including all the properties and businesses he owns.

Go spread your pointless nationalism, grown ups are talking.

First of all you don't own this board so you don't get to tell me what do. Yeah hardly anyone has $4.6 billion in cash lying around but when someone has a net worth of $4.6 billion "Hes broke amd cant afford a team" is an idiotic statement. He could easily finance $600 million to acquire a team if he wanted to buy a team.