When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[WarriorofTime]

Where are the complaints about Dallas having Seguin (32), Benn (34), Duchene (33), Dadonov (35), Smith (34), Suter (39), Tanev (34) and Pavelski (39) as part of their roster makes their success a mirage consisting of players that don't factor into the long-term? Wouldn't they rather be in the situation the Devils are, where mostly everyone is young and they also really, really suck?

Dallas is currently as a team where everyone wants to be, 108 points and Conference Finals last year, 113 points this year. Nobody is saying being young is better than being a contender.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I think, for me, half the league makes the playoffs and I see it as playoff teams and non playoff teams. All this celebrating that a team went from the worst Non playoff team to the 6th best non playoff team to the 3rd best non playoff team is funny. Progress is getting from being a non playoff team to being a playoff team.

That's an incredibly simplistic view of what "progress" is for a hockey team.

 

[chethejet]

No question a couple lottery positions hurt. Never had the chance to take a top couple picks. But they are getting better and with more emerging talent, can be one of the playoff teams here. Who is on the uptrend? Montreal, maybe Ottawa. No one in the Metro outside of Carolina who is stocked with young talent and prime players looks like a coming train. Boston will fail due to just not enough depth. Toronto ran into a couple wtf breaks here. They had momentum coming home and just blew it. But even with forward talent, that D stinks. Detroit will be a player but don't have that superstar to make the difference.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Oh. I didn't realize teams can just decide to win instead. GMs hate that one trick!

. Nowhere did I say that a team could decide to win. However, teams (or organizations) can and have decided to lose. In fact, many DRW fans here say the team "tried to win" for too long.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Dallas is currently as a team where everyone wants to be, 108 points and Conference Finals last year, 113 points this year. Nobody is saying being young is better than being a contender.

Which is exactly where Detroit wants to be a few years from now. If they will get there or not is a big question but the fact you are defending the Stars' build without being able to connect the dots to where Detroit hopes to be is pretty strange.

. Nowhere did I say that a team could decide to win. However, teams (or organizations) can and have decided to lose. In fact, many DRW fans here say the team "tried to win" for too long.

Detroit's also followed one of the least-tanky rebuilding trajectories ever. Yeah, they bottomed out in 2020 and didn't win the lottery and you blame it on them "deciding to lose". What about 2017? 2018? 2019? 2021? 2022? 2023? 2024? If the lottery was put in place to discourage tanking, why are you blaming Detroit for not winning the lottery when they tried their best to not tank?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Which is exactly where Detroit wants to be a few years from now. If they will get there or not is a big question but the fact you are defending the Stars' build without being able to connect the dots to where Detroit hopes to be is pretty strange.

It's pretty strange to not connect a Stanley Cup contender to a 9th place finisher? Lol

Everyone has the goal of that being "where they want to be a few years from now", that's a nonsensical point.

 

[ThunderRoad]

From previous team situation, seems where Yzerman excels is the trades he makes and the respect the players have for him. Not sure how his drafting has been in the first 2 rounds for Detroit but with Tampa his track record wasn't very good (only 2 picks in first 2 rounds became cornerstone guys in Vasilevskiy and Kucherov, every other pick failed to make any sort of impact). That said he has Detroit poised back in contention status, and his methodical approach, while not necessarily exciting, certainly made a difference in Tampa. And has Detroit right there. Lalonde was a great hire and miss him in Tampa - his replacement in Blashill has been less than satisfactory, which I know Wings nation knows all too well.

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's pretty strange to not connect a Stanley Cup contender to a 9th place finisher? Lol

Everyone has the goal of that being "where they want to be a few years from now", that's a nonsensical point.

Stay with me here, it's a stylistic comparison. Alright? Same way we can compare a prospect to Leon Draisatl even if they, at 17 years old, are not as good as Draisatl is right now.

Heck, one could probably even draw some pretty strong parallels between 2021 Dallas (missed the playoffs) and 2024 Red Wings. Sure, there's major differences too, but their top scorer was 35 years old, Robertson scored at a similar rate as Raymond, Heiskanen had a meh season after showing a lot of promise, and there wasn't a ton of young talent on the roster.

Super weird though how it's fine for people to compare what they're building to Minnesota (113 point team 2 years ago) but not to Dallas (113 point team this season).

 

[WarriorofTime]

Stay with me here, it's a stylistic comparison.

Lol, ok, are you Calgary's GM by chance?

Heck, one could probably even draw some pretty strong parallels between 2021 Dallas (missed the playoffs) and 2024 Red Wings.

Squint hard enough and you can make any parallel you want

Sure, there's major differences too, but their top scorer was 35 years old, Robertson scored at a similar rate as Raymond, Heiskanen had a meh season after showing a lot of promise, and there wasn't a ton of young talent on the roster.

Dallas also made the Stanley Cup Final in the COVID bubble in 2020.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Which is exactly where Detroit wants to be a few years from now. If they will get there or not is a big question but the fact you are defending the Stars' build without being able to connect the dots to where Detroit hopes to be is pretty strange.

"Defending the Stars build" - not sure what there is that anyone needs to defend there. They have a drafted and developed an amazing young core (Hintz, Robertson, Johnston, Harley, Stankhoven), of which only Heiskenen was a top 10 pick. This has enabled them to not be crippled by the "previous core" who are still around and overpaid for the current role/production (Seguin/Benn). They supplemented those group by some savvy "bargain" UFA/TD moves (Pavelski, Duchene, Marchment, Suter, Tanev). Note: I say "bargain" not because they aren't quality players - but most of those guys aren't locked up for 4-5 years or at "UFA premium" considering their production when signing.

The analogy for the Wings is actually closer than I would have thought before going through that thought exercise. The key aspects is obviously that they have to hit on their prospect pipeline at a really high rate for them to turn into their version of Robertson, Hintz, Oettinger, Harley, & Johnston. It will be interesting to see, that is for sure. The Stars also waited (for the most part) until much of the young core was on the roster to "fill in" with the UFA's, whereas the Wings seemed to have "front-loaded" that to give the pipeline more time to marinate.

EDIT: The issue with making a comparison to the Stars is that over the last 5 years they've done an amazing job of drafting players outside the top 10 and having them turn into impact players. It's what every team wants to do, but it's REALLY rare. It's like saying that someone wanted to style themselves after the late 90's Red Wings drafting with Datsyuk & Zetterberg, or the late 00's Hawks. Those tend to be "unicorn" type events where there is obviously some luck to go with great scouting. (And I say some luck, because if there wasn't those teams would have continued to add impact players outside the 1st round).

 

[JianYang]

The ownership and management has been making "win now" kind of moves for a couple years now, so it's pretty clear to me that from an internal standpoint, the wings are not quite where they intended to be on the comptitive cycle at this time.

I think they are already open to at least some criticism for that.

The hardest part of the rebuild execution is not the tear down itself... it's that moment where you feel like you are ready to turn the corner.

 

[WaW]

No one deserves criticism for "not intentionally staying historically bad repeatedly until they win a lottery" particularly when your team drops 2-3 places in the lottery for 4 years in a row.

And yes, even though most people aren't straight up saying that, its absolutely implied at the core of most anti-Yzerman arguments.

The entirely broken draft lottery system is an unfair metric of judging success. Sorry, but not a single owner in the league would authorize his GM to have repeat seasons of what happened in the 2019-2020 season just because they missed out on the lottery. The gate-driven revenue system with a hard cap doesn't jive with that whatsoever.

 

[GarlicbreadTB]

This was a lineup during Yzerman's first season as a GM.

 

[minimal]

Why anyone willingly reads a main board thread about their favorite team is beyond me.

The ownership and management has been making "win now" kind of moves for a couple years now

How anyone can look at these signings and think "this team is trying to win now" is also beyond me.

 

[Shaman464]

I already did that, you didn't respond.

You should just admit you don't understand the situation in Detroit as well as you think you do.

Notice hardly anyone (in fact I don't recall seeing any Wings fan say this) thinks the Yzerman rebuild is a lock to return Detroit to glory. We just laugh at repeated ignorant opinions, on the state of the rebuild, where it is coming from, and ownership's historical perspective.

Rebuilds are easy to talk about about, but difficult to execute. There is not enought "game breakers" to go around for everyone in rebuild mode and even if you get them you risk being too top-heavy.

In the mean time Yzerman has earned his respect and benefit of the doubt, and I am interested to see how far a team can get with a more balanced approach. The Bruins have been highly competitivefor over a decade witouth high end draft picks. We are lucky to have a GM and onwership with the patience to take this approach (though I do wonder if ownership had an influence for not tanking one more year for the Bedard sweepstakes).

He needs to drop Draper if he wants to draft like Boston. Draper likes to draft Draper like players and/or his own kids. Especially if Detroit is drafting out of the top ten, character is nice but they need to gamble on high skill high ceiling players with lower floors. Draper loves high character high floor lower ceiling forwards.

 

[Shaman464]

Why anyone willingly reads a main board thread about their favorite team is beyond me.


How anyone can look at these signings and think "this team is trying to win now" is also beyond me.

Last offseason had the looks of a push to be a playoff team. No real signings that looked like reclamation projects or guys who would be moved at the TDL. A lot of older UFAs got too much term and money for anything but for them to be seen as part of a push.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

This was a lineup during Yzerman's first season as a GM.

It's incredible how bad that team was... And Bernier still stole probably 5-10 points that season.

 

[JianYang]

Why anyone willingly reads a main board thread about their favorite team is beyond me.


How anyone can look at these signings and think "this team is trying to win now" is also beyond me.

well, the execution so far is up for debate, but I think you have to have your head buried in the sand not to notice that they have been trying to pivot from acquiring future assets to guys that can step in right away over the last couple years.

Internally, I'd be shocked if the expectation this year was not to make the playoffs.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

The optimism some red wings fans have is unparalleled. I will give you that.

 

[Dotter]

Yzerman is building an exciting up-and-coming team. What's not to be optimistic about?

They just missed the playoffs by 0 points and won more games than the team allowed in.

If the NHL's goal is to reward losing, then the more losing team was just allowed in. The Red Wings, who won more, was disallowed.

Despite NHL trying to promote losing, Wings just needs to keep winning.

When looking at other rebuilding teams around the NHL, Yzerman is about on par with his rebuild despite Ken Holland's attempt to sabotage the franchise. Listening to Podcasts of media guys, they are all impressed with Yzerman's accomplishments. They are excited about their core still in development; ASP, Kasper, Danielson, Cossa, Johansson, and a bunch of other prospects people are sleeping on.

Yzerman deserves some love.

 

[norrisnick]

well, the execution so far is up for debate, but I think you have to have your head buried in the sand not to notice that they have been trying to pivot from acquiring future assets to guys that can step in right away over the last couple years.

Internally, I'd be shocked if the expectation this year was not to make the playoffs.

True, but only in the sense that being a complete tire fire is not a tenable situation for young kids you want to mold into a winning lineup. Guys like Copp and Chiarot and whoever else are there to stop the bleeding. As the kids get integrated into the lineup that's the reconstructive surgery. Don't confuse bandages with core pieces for a Cup competitor.

And Yzerman has always stated that there is an expectation of improvement and progress, which there has been. At this stage the playoffs are still a hope.

It's fine to doubt the plan he has to build a competitive team as it's taking a long time. But there has never been a promise of anything else than it taking a long time. It'd be interesting to know what moves have been available to him that he's decided against. The only things we know for certain are kids that he could have drafted but didn't. Signings/trades would only be a guess.

 

[DamonDRW]

From previous team situation, seems where Yzerman excels is the trades he makes and the respect the players have for him. Not sure how his drafting has been in the first 2 rounds for Detroit but with Tampa his track record wasn't very good (only 2 picks in first 2 rounds became cornerstone guys in Vasilevskiy and Kucherov, every other pick failed to make any sort of impact). That said he has Detroit poised back in contention status, and his methodical approach, while not necessarily exciting, certainly made a difference in Tampa. And has Detroit right there. Lalonde was a great hire and miss him in Tampa - his replacement in Blashill has been less than satisfactory, which I know Wings nation knows all too well.

Only Vasilevskiy and Kucherov.. 140 pts winger and franchise goalie, my ass. 99% of teams would have traded all their 2nd round picks over multiple years to have these two guys on their team.

 

[DoMakc]

The optimism some red wings fans have is unparalleled. I will give you that.

Why should it be different? Team improved every year both in terms of points and on-ice product. System has improved a lot. Kids which already made it looks very good. A lot of kids who are on the brink of making it and look very promising.
Yzerman is actually yet to make a big move - he didn't commit a lot of draft/prospect capital or cap space into to a big trade or a big signing. His biggest investment up-to-date is turning three months of Tyler Bertuzzi into four years of DeBrincat. So this option is still on the table - there still a lot of flexibility. There still a lot of prospects who will replace some of the much critisied pieces will further improve the team. Basically it is understanable to me how this team can improve further.
The only thing that people can complain about is time, time he takes with prospects and that the whole approach is very consevative. One can argue that having Edvinsson the whole year with big club would actually produced a playoff berth as he is a better defenseman today than Holl or Petry. But he never promised that this rebuild will be quick.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Squint hard enough and you can make any parallel you want

Dallas also made the Stanley Cup Final in the COVID bubble in 2020.

And on that roster how much young talent was there? Heiskanen, Hintz..? That was the entire point you were making, no? That Detroit was a "mirage" this year because it wasn't a majority of rookies/youngsters driving it?

The analogy for the Wings is actually closer than I would have thought before going through that thought exercise. The key aspects is obviously that they have to hit on their prospect pipeline at a really high rate for them to turn into their version of Robertson, Hintz, Oettinger, Harley, & Johnston. It will be interesting to see, that is for sure. The Stars also waited (for the most part) until much of the young core was on the roster to "fill in" with the UFA's, whereas the Wings seemed to have "front-loaded" that to give the pipeline more time to marinate.

That's exactly where things stand right now. And a more relevant discussion than most of what is being had. Do they have enough in the pipeline? Can they hit a Johnston-level homerun at ~#15 this year? Or get something out of the 2nd/3rd rounds? Can Raymond take another step or two? etc.
The problems with those discussions is that it requires a level of patience and it's far more fun to judge the entire rebuilding process right now.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

The optimism some red wings fans have is unparalleled. I will give you that.

It's exactly like Ottawa's fanbase before this season.