When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

MNRube

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Oct 20, 2013
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So why are you holding Yzerman to the standard that every pick who isn’t trending historically incredible is bad? Kasper looks good/great, but because he’s not breaking records it’s apparently not an acceptable pick from Yzerman.
Go back and look at what I posted.

One of your fellow DRW fans said no other forwards taken after Kasper in 1st round has outperformed him or “shown anything more spectacular”

That was obviously not true so I presented examples to show this. You decided to put words in my mouth twice - once about ASP & once about Yzerman.
 

McJedi

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Apr 21, 2020
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Hilariously wrong. The Wings need a RHD to pair with Edvinsson on the 2nd pairing, not a LHD.
Why not.

I’d be amused if they continue to keep Seider on a pair that gets caved in most nights.

Don’t fix that problem. Let it continue. Seider has produced some of the worst defensive analytics in the NHL. Leave him in that bad situation.
 
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Dotter

THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Jul 2, 2014
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Yurov is significantly better. Ohgren showed he can play in the NHL, and that’s after a terrific 2nd half in the SHL. That’s just one team, too

Lekkerimaki and Kemell had better seasons too and I think Nazar has more value at the moment as well. At this point in time, Kasper looks like a bad pick. But like you said, it’s very early to be having this talk

The most recent re draft I could find published a few months ago has Kasper at #9 with Denton Mateychuk (D) bumping up to #8. Maybe it's because Kasper is NHL ready right now. He could step in the NHL top 9 today and be a + player. Yzerman is marinating him slowly in the AHL and Kasper had a fine second half. His first half is what people like you are referring to, for good reason, because he was still recovering from injury and adjusting to NA ice.

Kasper is in the playoffs right now and was one of the better guys on the ice in last night's win.

I don't think scouts are as high on Yurov as you. Maybe it's the Russian factor.

That was obviously not true so I presented examples to show this. You decided to put words in my mouth twice - once about ASP & once about Yzerman.

I think your examples are biased. Because the most recent redraft doesn't support your claim.
 

norrisnick

The best...
Apr 14, 2005
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Why not.

I’d be amused if they continue to keep Seider on a pair that gets caved in most nights.

Don’t fix that problem. Let it continue. Seider has produced some of the worst defensive analytics in the NHL. Leave him in that bad situation.
Because Mo's pairing was not the problem. The dudes that wrote those defensive analytics have also written that Seider's deployment largely breaks the models. He's too extreme of an outlier to get any meaningful data. Any formula that spits out he's a bottom 5% defender in the NHL is very obviously worthless. But by all means cling to that bottom 5% rating as if it means anything.

Get Ed a partner so the 2nd pairing can actually get something beyond 3rd pairing assignments and it takes pressure off the top pairing. And the 3rd pairing needs to not be historically sheltered. Ditching Ghost will hopefully allow for that.
 

Spring in Fialta

A malign star kept him
Apr 1, 2007
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That probably paints a more accurate picture, yes.

A ridiculous one IMO. I won't get into the nitty-gritty of it all because I don't care to but 5 straight misses and the nearest one being in the most pathetic playoff race the East has seen in a while isn't a good record. And they don't even look like they'll be more dangerous next year.
 
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norrisnick

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Apr 14, 2005
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A ridiculous one IMO. I won't get into the nitty-gritty of it all because I don't care too but 5 straight misses and the nearest one being in the most pathetic playoff race the East has seen in a while isn't a good record. And they don't even look like they'll be more dangerous next year.
Don't care enough to look into the situation, but care enough to toss in two cents. How HFBoards of you.
 

Spring in Fialta

A malign star kept him
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Don't care enough to look into the situation, but care enough to toss in two cents. How HFBoards of you.

Okay.

Clearly I'm not saying that that I don't know what moves the Wings have made or what they looked like. I just have no interest in getting into a back-and-forth.

A poor record is a poor record is a poor record. 5 years is plenty of time to get a team back into the playoffs. No matter what they looked like when he took over. The rest is just cope.
 
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sting101

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Feb 8, 2012
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Outsider here so dont jump down my throat too hard

I thought the Hronek move was smart. Get a mid round pick (ASP) in a stacked draft plus a 2nd for a player they can't afford with Seider.... reset cap and assets and double up in the draft after a failed season is exactly what i want my GM to do.

Seider was a brilliant pick that had a few jaws dropped at the time. Raymond is a excellent core piece. The rest are still in the developing phase. Edvinsson i wasn't a huge fan of his IQ but that skating and athletic package if he puts the pieces together will be a massive shut down piece and SY is doing the right thing to get his defense and goaltending prioritized through the draft as nobody gives up #1 D or Top shut down pair guys or top starting goalies in their primes.

Personally i would have preferred Wallstedt at the time and Kasper seemed too high for his upside but lots to still be realized from those picks so it's not worth criticizing too much from a GMs perspective.

Pro scouting signings are too much term and money for 2nd and 3rd tier players. May not have been a huge issue yet but if the idea is to be competitive which it obviously is when your targeting Kane Perron etc your handcuffing your ability to add impact players. Yzerman needs to be more shrewd going forward to avoid the Chiarot Holl Copp type deals

I think he's doing a good job just needs to clean up some of the mistakes if Larkin is going to be involved in being a contender
 

schuelma24

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Jul 14, 2023
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Outsider here so dont jump down my throat too hard

I thought the Hronek move was smart. Get a mid round pick (ASP) in a stacked draft plus a 2nd for a player they can't afford with Seider.... reset cap and assets and double up in the draft after a failed season is exactly what i want my GM to do.

Seider was a brilliant pick that had a few jaws dropped at the time. Raymond is a excellent core piece. The rest are still in the developing phase. Edvinsson i wasn't a huge fan of his IQ but that skating and athletic package if he puts the pieces together will be a massive shut down piece and SY is doing the right thing to get his defense and goaltending prioritized through the draft as nobody gives up #1 D or Top shut down pair guys or top starting goalies in their primes.

Personally i would have preferred Wallstedt at the time and Kasper seemed too high for his upside but lots to still be realized from those picks so it's not worth criticizing too much from a GMs perspective.

Pro scouting signings are too much term and money for 2nd and 3rd tier players. May not have been a huge issue yet but if the idea is to be competitive which it obviously is when your targeting Kane Perron etc your handcuffing your ability to add impact players. Yzerman needs to be more shrewd going forward to avoid the Chiarot Holl Copp type deals

I think he's doing a good job just needs to clean up some of the mistakes if Larkin is going to be involved in being a contender

see this is how you do it!

good post. He hasn't been anything close to perfect and I think most Wings fan would agree with your last point.
 

OgeeOgelthorpe

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Feb 29, 2020
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Kasper has looked pretty bad so far. It would be one thing if Ed looked better offensively in Detroit than GR but he hasn't. There's a pretty short list of guys who have managed to turn it around from where Kasper is right now.

Kasper started out the season ice cold with no camp coming off a broken knee cap. Since about game 35 he’s been one of Grand Rapid’s top performers. 4th highest scorer overall and second highest since the midway point, +/- leader.

Your post lacks context. I have now provided it for you.
 

TS Quint

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Sep 8, 2012
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Sorry this is a long one here, but show me where Holland set ANY GM up for future success. I used the 2012 draft, as that was the beginning of the end for Wings competively speaking. Yes he drafted Larkin, but what other standout are you seeing there? Combine that with his penchant for handing out excessive term and money to vets, poor panicked FA signings, and you can begin to see why most Red Wing fans lament the end of Holland's tenure. The point Wings fans have been making, is that the cupboard was barren when Yzerman. BARREN!!! Has every move worked out so far, absolutely not. But you can't take a roster devoid of any real talent, with cap issues, and expect it to turn around in 5 years. Two years of this rebuild was burning time waiting for anchor contracts to expire.
2012 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2012 Entry492Martin FrkRHalifax Mooseheads [QMJHL]12420214124
2012 Entry803Jake PatersonGSaginaw Spirit [OHL]
2012 Entry1104Andreas AthanasiouCLondon Knights [OHL]487127118245189
2012 Entry1405Mike McKeeDLincoln Stars [USHL]
2012 Entry1706James De HaasDToronto Lakeshore Patriots [OJHL]
2012 Entry2007Rasmus BodinDOsterlunds [Sweden]
2013 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2013 Entry201Anthony ManthaRVal d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]494142154296266
2013 Entry482Zach NastasiukROwen Sound Attack [OHL]
2013 Entry582Tyler BertuzziLGuelph Storm [OHL]406113148261248
2013 Entry793Mattias Janmark-NylenCAIK [SEL]55780115195183
2013 Entry1094David PopeLWest Kelowna Warriors [BCHL]
2013 Entry1395Mitch WheatonDKelowna Rockets [WHL]
2013 Entry1696Marc McNultyDPrince George Cougars [WHL]
2013 Entry1997Hampus MelenRTingsryd Jrs. (Sweden)
2014 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2014 Entry151Dylan LarkinCU.S. National Under-18 Team [USHL]652212294506411
2014 Entry633Dominic TurgeonCPortland Winterhawks [WHL]90002
2014 Entry1064Christoffer EhnCFrolunda (Sweden Jrs.)11458138
2014 Entry1365Chase PerryGWenatchee Wild [NAHL]
2014 Entry1666Julius VahataloFTPS (Finland Jrs.)
2014 Entry1967Axel HolmstromFSkelleftea (Sweden Jrs.)
2014 Entry2017Alexander KadeykinFMoscow Oblast Atlant [KHL]
2015 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2015 Entry191Evgeny SvechnikovLCape Breton Screaming Eagles [QMJHL]17220254584
2015 Entry733Vili SaarijarviDGreen Bay Gamblers [USHL]
2015 Entry1104Joren Van PottelbergheGLinkopings Jrs. (Sweden)
2015 Entry1405Chase PearsonCYoungstown Phantoms [USHL]30000
2015 Entry1706Patrick HolwayDBoston Advantage U18
2015 Entry2007Adam MarshLSaint John Sea Dogs [QMJHL]
2016 Entry
DraftNum.RoundPlayerPosDrafted FromGPGAPtsPIM
2016 Entry201Dennis CholowskiDChilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]11710203028
2016 Entry462Givani SmithRGuelph Storm [OHL]15591322250
2016 Entry532Filip HronekDHradec Kralove [Czech]39035170205200
2016 Entry1074Alfons MalmstromDOrebro Jrs (Sweden)
2016 Entry1375Jordan SambrookDErie Otters [OHL]
2016 Entry1676Filip LarssonGDjurgarden Jrs (Sweden)
2016 Entry1977Mattias ElfstromLMalmo Jrs (Sweden)
2017 Entry91Michael RasmussenCTri-City Americans [WHL]3134970119211
2017 Entry382Gustav LindstromDAlmtuna IS [Swe-1]1745303580
2017 Entry713Kasper KotkansaloDSioux Falls Stampede [USHL]
2017 Entry793Lane ZablockiRRed Deer Rebels [WHL]
2017 Entry833Zachary GallantCPeterborough Petes [OHL]
2017 Entry883Keith PetruzzelliGMuskegon Lumberjacks [USHL]
2017 Entry1004Malte SetkovDMalmo [Sweden-Jrs]
2017 Entry1315Cole FraserDPeterborough Petes [OHL]
2017 Entry1626Jack AdamsCFargo Force [USHL]
2017 Entry1646Reilly WebbDHamilton Bulldogs [OHL]
2017 Entry1937Brady GilmourCSaginaw Spirit [OHL]
2011 was a big problem. Holland (and Wings fans) had way too much confidence in Sproul, XO and Backman to save their defense. They all busted. It was 4 more years until they put any serious Draft capital into defensemen when they picked (sigh) Sarijaarvi. Shitting the bed overall in a fantastic 2015 Draft also a huge failure.
 
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WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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Regardless of whether you think Yzerman is good or bad, one thing that's for sure, Red Wings have taken the mantle from Ottawa fans by far as being the biggest homers about how all their guys stack up around the League. This Dotter guy in particular is quite the character with some of these takes.
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
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I hope you are measuring Pellikka this prematurely and putting him top 5 in a re-draft?
No? Surprising.
Good offensive production, downside is worst +/- on his team, 7/10 goals on the Powerplay, not sure the proportion on his 8 assists. Everyone saw him at the WJC... he's a guy that has a good chance to be a Powerplay QB, but if he doesn't quite get there, it's questionable if he is a good enough to be a meaningful contributor, and even if he does, still has question marks if he's a big time Defenseman or more like a Klingberg/Gostisbehere specialist. With current meta of 4 FWD/1 DEF alignments and First Units playing a disproportionate lion's share of any powerplay, I dunno that anybody is chomping at the bit or rocketing up him rankings at the moment.

Too early to decide if he should be moved up or down, it's tough in general to assess '23 prospects as they are scattered all over various levels around the world.
 

schuelma24

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Jul 14, 2023
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Good offensive production, downside is worst +/- on his team, 7/10 goals on the Powerplay, not sure the proportion on his 8 assists. Everyone saw him at the WJC... he's a guy that has a good chance to be a Powerplay QB, but if he doesn't quite get there, it's questionable if he is a good enough to be a meaningful contributor, and even if he does, still has question marks if he's a big time Defenseman or more like a Klingberg/Gostisbehere specialist.

Too early to decide if he should be moved up or down, it's tough in general to assess '23 prospects as they are scattered all over various levels around the world.

He's playing 2nd pair minutes and over a half point a game in the SHL playoffs and is a win away from winning the championship. Turned 19 last month.

But sure, let's hold him to an utterly ridiculous standard where you're breaking out power point production and plus minus because it would require you to admit that by the logic you and others use to trash Kasper and other Wings prospects, ASP has had an amazing D+1.
 
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WarriorofTime

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Jul 3, 2010
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He's playing 2nd pair minutes and over a half point a game in the SHL playoffs and is a win away from winning the championship. Turned 19 last month.
Ok, and? What am I supposed to glean from this other than he remains a good prospect?
But sure, let's hold him to an utterly ridiculous standard
What standard? I literally told you who the player was. I would think you know this.
where you're breaking out power point production
I don't understand, it's directly relevant
and plus minus because it would require you to admit that by the logic you and others use to trash Kasper and other Wings prospects,
This is a great example of double standards, on your end though, Wings prospects get the benefit of the doubt, but I'm doubtful you do that for every other well regarded and highly drafted prospect
ASP has had an amazing D+1.
He had a good season, I wouldn't say he's shot up or down.
 

lidstromiscool

Registered User
May 5, 2007
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Kasper started out the season ice cold with no camp coming off a broken knee cap. Since about game 35 he’s been one of Grand Rapid’s top performers. 4th highest scorer overall and second highest since the midway point, +/- leader.

Your post lacks context. I have now provided it for you.
Kasper has been ice cold lately, 3 points in his last 13 games. Disappointing season for those of us hoping for more offense. He looks like an NHLer for sure, but hardly a difference maker that you would hope for with a top 10 pick.
 

schuelma24

Registered User
Jul 14, 2023
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This is a great example of double standards, on your end though, Wings prospects get the benefit of the doubt, but I'm doubtful you do that for every other well regarded and highly drafted prospect
I'll make this very simple for you.

Kasper had a lot of mitigating factors and has played much better the 2nd half of the season, but I'll freely admit that based on last year and this year there are major questions on his offense, to where I'd say he's more likely to end up being a 3C.

I'll also freely admit Wallinder and Lombardi haven't progressed this year like I had hoped they would.

See? It's not that hard. But sure, go off and claim ASP hasn't improved his stock this year because of his plus minus.
 

WarriorofTime

Registered User
Jul 3, 2010
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See, this is just absolutely an insane take and shows you have zero interest in an honest discussion.
No it’s not, lol. I don’t know what to tell you. It’s notoriously hard to rank prospects scattered all over after their D+1. He went 17th in the draft, not 170th. Everyone is a good prospect at that range.
 

schuelma24

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Jul 14, 2023
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No it’s not, lol. I don’t know what to tell you. It’s notoriously hard to rank prospects scattered all over after their D+1. He went 17th in the draft, not 170th. Everyone is a good prospect at that range.

It's truly amazing how thoughtful and circumspect you are on ASP as opposed to other Wings prospects. Such a coincidence that the one who scored at a near historic level as a pro has a lot of questions and is a really hard evaluation, but the Wings prospect who turned 20 two weeks ago is a disappointment based on his AHL production.
 
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nbwingsfan

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Dec 13, 2009
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Reading comprehension is a requirement to avoid posting nonsense.

Fyi Zadina played 72 games for the Sharks this year.

I don't think words like reality & evidence mean what you think they do.


He's baiting himself, doesn't need help from anyone on that front lol
72 games for the worst team in the league putting up just over 20pts? What a STAR.

Zadina won’t be in the NHL long at all.

Why not.

I’d be amused if they continue to keep Seider on a pair that gets caved in most nights.

Don’t fix that problem. Let it continue. Seider has produced some of the worst defensive analytics in the NHL. Leave him in that bad situation.
With a second paid that can actually perform as a second pair then they wouldn’t have to shelter everyone else and not have to play Seider in, by FAR, the hardest positions in the NHL every single time he’s out
 

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