Maple Leaf
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- Sep 18, 2009
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As long as Detroid is on the outside looking in I am happy with the yzerplan
I think my original point was I don't see any Homeruns, and it's starting to look questionable if there are any Doubles, and a few Singles by now would be nice...You still are not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying any of the Detroit guys are projected to be good or that our draft projects as good. I never even said that the drafts were good. I just said they weren't "bad". I also never said the Detroit guys are number 11 through whatever.
If every single one of the Detroit players beyond the 1st round in 2019/2020 bust and never make the NHL, the only way that's considered a "bad" draft is if many impact players could have been picked instead. Again, if your threshold is "NHL player", then I agree with you - if none of our guys make the NHL and there are 20-30 guys that played 100-200 games, even if at the 4th liner level, then yes, that's a failed draft.
But if your threshold is "impact player" - i.e. a player that actually changes the course of the rebuild in any meaningful way - then the argument is different. If there are only 10-15 "impact players" beyond the first round (i.e. top 6 or top 4) between the 2019/2020 drafts, then I don't see how you can say that Yzerman has been drafting poorly. He just drafted "average". He did well with the 1st round picks, and couldn't hit the 10-15/350 home runs. You can certainly say the drafts were not "great". But I don't seeh ow you can see they were 'bad' just because they didn't get one of the 15 players that the vast, vast majority of teams also failed to get.
As long as Detroid is on the outside looking in I am happy with the yzerplan
As long as Detroid is on the outside looking in I am happy with the yzerplan
You would notice that it is mostly non-wings fans who think the yzerplan is a major failure. Most wings fans are absolutely fine with where the team is at, but with some rational criticism that any true hockey enjoyer should be able to have. For wings fans, it is mostly around the contracts given to subpar vets.I thought my fanbase was critical lol, you go from a sub-50 point team, to jumps in point totals over the past 3 years of around 10+ per season, and this year you just missed the playoffs... and y'all are ready to rag on the team? You've probably got one of the brightest futures in the league with kids on the cusp of stepping in, and this is after an era where y'all were signing past-their-prime plugs to take up roster spots. Didn't you guys just miss since you had the same amount of points as the Caps but got eliminated due to a tiebreaker? Next season the Caps probably fall out while you guys probably take another step with a further influx of kids, so just take a breath, y'all should be in good shape.
The contracts don't even bother me considering it's pretty much Yzerman signing plugs to keep the guys competitive and out of the "Loser mindset" hole that certain other rebuilding teams seem to have fallen into.You would notice that it is mostly non-wings fans who think the yzerplan is a major failure. Most wings fans are absolutely fine with where the team is at, but with some rational criticism that any true hockey enjoyer should be able to have. For wings fans, it is mostly around the contracts given to subpar vets.
Agreed, and I don't think any of these contracts are catastrophic by any means but they COULD end up blocking a potential extension to someone like Kane, let's say. It also depends on the contracts of Ray and Mo.The contracts don't even bother me considering it's pretty much Yzerman signing plugs to keep the guys competitive and out of the "Loser mindset" hole that certain other rebuilding teams seem to have fallen into.
Then I agree with you. If Yzerman gets zero impact players from 2019-2024 beyond the 1st round, that is an indictment of his drafting. Over one or two years, I think it means nothing. Over half a decade and more, it matters.I think my original point was I don't see any Homeruns, and it's starting to look questionable if there are any Doubles, and a few Singles by now would be nice...
As I've said, a couple Homeruns outside the 1st round are a must long-term. The timing of that assessment is loose and floating, however we should have a pretty solid idea once a player is on 2nd contract/post-waiver exempt years, while some players will blow up after that once they've rode the waiver bus a bit, it's usually the case they're on their 2nd or 3rd team by then... and we don't go from "no determination" to "ready to make a determination" overnight, as it's a pretty evolving process after year post-draft. Ages 22/23 are a good time to say it's reasonable to be both on a roster and a meaningful contributor (some, high picks in particular, are able to get there quicker, the ones that don't and become high impact players are more exceptions to the rule), while continuing to grow/get better.
It's not us. It's Hawks/other teams fans.I thought my fanbase was critical lol, you go from a sub-50 point team, to jumps in point totals over the past 3 years of around 10+ per season, and this year you just missed the playoffs... and y'all are ready to rag on the team? You've probably got one of the brightest futures in the league with kids on the cusp of stepping in, and this is after an era where y'all were signing past-their-prime plugs to take up roster spots. Didn't you guys just miss since you had the same amount of points as the Caps but got eliminated due to a tiebreaker? Next season the Caps probably fall out while you guys probably take another step with a further influx of kids, so just take a breath, y'all should be in good shape.
I'm guessing Kane is gonna depend entirely on if Kane wants to be here.Agreed, and I don't think any of these contracts are catastrophic by any means but they COULD end up blocking a potential extension to someone like Kane, let's say. It also depends on the contracts of Ray and Mo.
But it's not like the Wings non-1st round picks from those years project as anything more than "dime a dozen" players as you refer to it. To the extent they make the NHL at all, it will likely be in such a capacity based on everything they have all shown to date.
Every player's journey is unique... I think you may be dismissing all these other players too quickly while giving the Wings guys a much longer leash and benefit of the doubt. Many players start as depth players and earn bigger opportunities. You rarely go from AHL to 1st liner.
The indictment is no NHL players to date, nobody that projects highly. I don't see how you can look at the drafts and say they were rated highly in general, flip what you said, instead of proving a negative, prove the positive that the drafts were good.
I don't see how the Red Wings guys are number 11 through whatever. There is no basis for that.
But you still haven’t answered my question? I didn’t deflect anything, I directly addressed your assertion that they drafted poorly outside the first round in those years. For that to be true, there have to be players they COULD have picked that would have made a tangible improvement to the team over the players they did pick. I listed Faber, Maccelli, and JJP. That’s three guys over hundreds of picks.
Can you name any others that would move the needle for the current Detroit team that they should have picked in 19/20? If not, I don’t get how you can say Detroit drafted poorly in those years, unless you say every single team other than LA, Arizona, and Buffalo drafted poorly in those years.
There are ALWAYS opportunities to find good talent outside of the First Round. The entire history of the NHL Draft proves that. That's why you seem insistent on trying to nitpick every player to throw your hands up and say "there's like 1 or 2 good players! Faber and he got traded, so therefore there is no point to concede, presumably no one else!" which is obviously not going to prove true, but that I doubt you care to dissect super closely to go through player by player and assess where they are in their journey and where they may reasonably be likely to get to. You don't need to strawmen things I've said, like "a failure". I've said the post-1st round drafting hasn't been impressive, obviously many are too young to fully judge, the ones that aren't too young are left wanting. It just seems like some people are so stubborn towards ANY possible criticism that they won't concede what should be very basic admissions that don't completely undermine what I assume is the broader, bigger picture point (Yzerman doing a great job).You write as if there are all these opportunities for greatness that Yzerman blundered by passing on somehow setting the rebuild back, but when you actually break it down, its hard to find such monumental misses.
If Holl's games were played by Tuomisto,I think my original point was I don't see any Homeruns, and it's starting to look questionable if there are any Doubles, and a few Singles by now would be nice...
As I've said, a couple Homeruns outside the 1st round are a must long-term. The timing of that assessment is loose and floating, however we should have a pretty solid idea once a player is on 2nd contract/post-waiver exempt years, while some players will blow up after that once they've rode the waiver bus a bit, it's usually the case they're on their 2nd or 3rd team by then... and we don't go from "no determination" to "ready to make a determination" overnight, as it's a pretty evolving process after year post-draft. Ages 22/23 are a good time to say it's reasonable to be both on a roster and a meaningful contributor (some, high picks in particular, are able to get there quicker, the ones that don't and become high impact players are more exceptions to the rule), while continuing to grow/get better.
Wouldn't bet on it, honestly. Edvinsson is up, that's guaranteed. Johansson and Berggren pretty much have to "Prove they belong" or they're gone. (I'm not certain Berggren re-signs)If Holl's games were played by Tuomisto,
And Maatta's games were played by Edvinsson,
And Edvinsson's games played by Johansson does it change anything with regards to the draft?
Yzerman, to the frustration of the fan base, decided against that course of action. I'm guessing that not to be the case this coming season.
There are ALWAYS opportunities to find good talent outside of the First Round. The entire history of the NHL Draft proves that. That's why you seem insistent on trying to nitpick every player to throw your hands up and say "there's like 1 or 2 good players! Faber and he got traded, so therefore there is no point to concede, presumably no one else!" which is obviously not going to prove true, but that I doubt you care to dissect super closely to go through player by player and assess where they are in their journey and where they may reasonably be likely to get to. You don't need to strawmen things I've said, like "a failure". I've said the post-1st round drafting hasn't been impressive, obviously many are too young to fully judge, the ones that aren't too young are left wanting. It just seems like some people are so stubborn towards ANY possible criticism that they won't concede what should be very basic admissions that don't completely undermine what I assume is the broader, bigger picture point (Yzerman doing a great job).
I've made plenty of posts on this thread pertaining to the topic you seem to not want to engage them.Like what, debate in good faith, please instead of these endless "gotcha" traps and shifting goalposts that don't do anything to support a real point.
Lmao those fans need something better to do.It's not us. It's Hawks/other teams fans.
I think my original point was I don't see any Homeruns, and it's starting to look questionable if there are any Doubles, and a few Singles by now would be nice...
As I've said, a couple Homeruns outside the 1st round are a must long-term. The timing of that assessment is loose and floating, however we should have a pretty solid idea once a player is on 2nd contract/post-waiver exempt years, while some players will blow up after that once they've rode the waiver bus a bit, it's usually the case they're on their 2nd or 3rd team by then... and we don't go from "no determination" to "ready to make a determination" overnight, as it's a pretty evolving process after year post-draft. Ages 22/23 are a good time to say it's reasonable to be both on a roster and a meaningful contributor (some, high picks in particular, are able to get there quicker, the ones that don't and become high impact players are more exceptions to the rule), while continuing to grow/get better.
Then I agree with you. If Yzerman gets zero impact players from 2019-2024 beyond the 1st round, that is an indictment of his drafting. Over one or two years, I think it means nothing. Over half a decade and more, it matters.
I personally think the following guys are trending to be potential impact players:
Trey Augustine (2023, starting goalie potential)
Dmitri Buchelnikov (2022, top6 F potential)
Mazur (2021, top6/9 F potential, will be on the team next year hopefully)
Shai Buium (2021, top 4 potential)
Albert Johansson (2018, top 4 potential, really should have been up this year and will definitely be up next year)
If every single one of those guys busts and doesn't make it past 4th liner/ equivalent. Then I agree with you. That will have been a failure of Yzerman's drafting.
But I think it's looking good for the 2021-2023 guys.
It's not us. It's Hawks/other teams fans.
I once saw an interaction on the internet with someone who didn't know the facepalm emoji.
He thought the person agreed with him and it was an emoji of someone handing him an orange due to the good point. I think of it every time someone uses it. You've made me think of it a couple times now.
For someone with some facepalm worthy takes in this thread you sure like to make a display of dismissing people's opinions.
Ok, so the prospect pool was RATED top 10 at that time. Let's all accept that fact for a moment. Now as you rightly say, everyone has been wrong about prospects before, and will continue to do so. Now, with hindsight, everyone and their mother can see that the Red Wings DID NOT have a top ten prospect pool. So what's the point of continuing to say that Yzerman inherited a top 10 prospect pool, and use that as a negative mark on his tenure as GM. When everyone and their mother f**king knows that WAS NOT a top 10 prospect pool. And as I'm finishing this, you may not be the poster I intended to respond to, but I'm rolling with it anyways...... Let's call it, general food for thought.
We are talking about the prospect pool Yzerman was handed upon his arrival.... WHAT ASSETS? You can't flip prospects that no one wants.Bad take is a bad take.
Instead of talking about me, why not keep it to talking about hockey.
Asset.
Management.
Once you understand what that means, and how it applies to a general Manager, let's revisit, shall we?