When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[norrisnick]

To be fair, none of them earned it out of camp. And Yzerman always hedges his bets hoping that he is forced to trade a veteran to make room for a younger player. Maybe Berggren deserved a longer stint with the club, but that can be debated until the cows come home and it wasn't on offense that the team needed the veterans. It took Edvinsson 3/4 of the year, after offseason surgery, to be ready, and now he will be there to start next year. I would assume Johansson, Pellikka, and Wallinder (maybe Buium) will get their chance once again, but Yzerman is right to at least have a veteran in place to let the younger players develop in the AHL.

The Wings being slow to call someone up doesn't mean they weren't ready and/or didn't earn the spot out of camp. Ed was ready day one of camp. Last year. Ditto Berggren.

 

[eojsmada]

The Wings being slow to call someone up doesn't mean they weren't ready and/or didn't earn the spot out of camp. Ed was ready day one of camp. Last year. Ditto Berggren.

Edvinsson was not ready day one, and he has admitted as such. This past summer he was coming off of surgery and needed the time in the AHL to get rid of some bad defensive habits. In particular he was too reliant on his reach to defend and not learning to defend properly. He learned well and looks like he will be very good for it. His interview with Daniella Bruce confirms this.

I understand that Petry and Holl were horrible to watch all season, and that Detroit fans would rather have watched Edvinsson be there all year instead of Holl. But Yzerman had a clear plan of succession in mind when he brought veterans in, to help guard against the younger players not being NHL ready. Holl's failure, combined with Walman's injury allowed for Edvinsson to get a chance and he made the most of it.

Other young players will have a similar situation to succeed, in the future, but Yzerman will make sure that his team is still competitive and that the young players have the chance to develop properly. That is the sign of a competent GM. That he was able to get 91 points, with a lesser skilled team, and continue to build the team properly is what every franchise aspires to. Just ask Buffalo and Ottawa.

 

[norrisnick]

Edvinsson was not ready day one, and he has admitted as such. This past summer he was coming off of surgery and needed the time in the AHL to get rid of some bad defensive habits. In particular he was too reliant on his reach to defend and not learning to defend properly. He learned well and looks like he will be very good for it. His interview with Daniella Bruce confirms this.

I understand that Petry and Holl were horrible to watch all season, and that Detroit fans would rather have watched Edvinsson be there all year instead of Holl. But Yzerman had a clear plan of succession in mind when he brought veterans in, to help guard against the younger players not being NHL ready. Holl's failure, combined with Walman's injury allowed for Edvinsson to get a chance and he made the most of it.

Other young players will have a similar situation to succeed, in the future, but Yzerman will make sure that his team is still competitive and that the young players have the chance to develop properly. That is the sign of a competent GM. That he was able to get 91 points, with a lesser skilled team, and continue to build the team properly is what every franchise aspires to. Just ask Buffalo and Ottawa.

If Ed wasn't ready half the blueline wasn't ready. It's a silly to have different standards for on ice performance solely based on age.

EDIT and to add, his time in the AHL only solidified the habits that he had, ie thinking he's got all the time in the world to do whatever he wants to. Because in the AHL that's very true.

 

[eojsmada]

If Ed wasn't ready half the blueline wasn't ready. It's a silly to have different standards for on ice performance solely based on age.

Not sure how to help you, then. Veterans always get pride of place for a reason. But when you have the ability, as the Red Wings did, to let Edvinsson continue development in a way that garnered success and he was able to translate that in his time in the last 10 or so games of the season, is just a testament to the right thing that was done to develop him.

I know it stinks that you didn't get into the playoffs, but the team will be better for it, going forward, because Edvinsson will have been fully developed and should be one of many difference makers as to why you will succeed in getting a playoff spot, next year.

 

[norrisnick]

Not sure how to help you, then. Veterans always get pride of place for a reason. But when you have the ability, as the Red Wings did, to let Edvinsson continue development in a way that garnered success and he was able to translate that in his time in the last 10 or so games of the season, is just a testament to the right thing that was done to develop him.

I know it stinks that you didn't get into the playoffs, but the team will be better for it, going forward, because Edvinsson will have been fully developed and should be one of many difference makers as to why you will succeed in getting a playoff spot, next year.

All the Wings did this year is shortchange Edvinsson 60+ games of NHL experience. That would help the Wings far more than the 15 or so games he got.

 

[Grub]

We didn't want to pay him 7+ million dollars.

Could still have traded him at the end of this season since Hronek is a RFA.

 

[Dotter]

Yet, when one of those two players is out the Wings look like a lottery team.... So what did he improve?

Go look at their points total the past 5 years.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

No excuses. Av's should have drafted #1 and dropped to 4th after our 48 point season. Had to draft some dman plug playing college hockey who was from Calgary.

Yeah I don't think it would've mattered much short of us actually winning a lottery pick.

2017 the picks before us were Lias Andersson and Mittelstadt.
2018 we would've still picked Zadina even at 5th.
2019 and 2020 were Seider and Raymond. Both working out pretty damn well, and I'd say 2nd best in their draft years currently.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Well that's weird because the NHL now tracks offensive zone time with PuckEDGE and the Red Wings were a below average team at generating offensive zone time as well. 40.4% in the O-zone at even strength.

If your theory were true, they'd have high offensive zone time compared to shots, but their zone time sucks as well.

If you actually watched hockey instead of looking up stats, you'd know my "Theory" is true.

Because it's not a theory. I watched almost every game. You should try it some time.

 

[Frank Drebin]

I have nothing personal against Wings fans or Yzerman.

I think just goes to show how much luck has to do with the perception of competence or excellence. Holland was once the class of the league with his 1995-2010 ish red wings. All on the back of inheriting Steve Yzerman and drafting franchise cornerstones with a third round pick (Lidstrom) , a 7th round pick (Zetterberg) and a 6th round pick (Datsyuk)

Yzerman was considered a hockey genius for building the foundation for the tampa bay dynasty.

But he himself inherited Stamkos and Hedman, and drafted his own franchise cornerstones in the 2nd round (Kucherov) third round (Point). I don't care what anyone says, when you pick busts before franchise players, you simply got lucky. Yes you deserve credit for drafting those players and recognizing their potential, but if they really knew how good these players would have been they would have been their first picks in the draft.

 

[Ezekial]

Could still have traded him at the end of this season since Hronek is a RFA.

Or we could've traded him for a top 20 pick when we did and drafted Axel Sandin-Pellikka

 

[Quinnisinoverhishead]

The only problem is that centers are not even half good as defenseman

Very difficult to get an elite #1 center in this league... Need to get the first overall pick in a specific draft year.
He signed Larkin to a team friendly deal.
Nate Danielsen isn't going to break the bank for a while and looks like he can step in next year and be an elite third line centre.
If they can get more consistent goaltending play and if their young talent continues to take improvements. This team will be scary next year and following years.

 

[PaulD]

I like the Wings under Yzermans plan.
Some of the skaters that will be Wings best players aren't even on the team yet. Primo goalie will be key. And the young guy they have looks to be on great trajectory.
In the Atlantic I would be surprised if Yzerman expected a play off spot when 2023 season started. But they were knocking right at the door in game 82.
Wings are moving up in the east according to plan. Red Wing fans should be happy.
Wish I could say the same for the other bottom feeders in the Atlantic.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I like the Wings under Yzermans plan.
Some of the skaters that will be Wings players aren't even on rhe team yet. Primo goalie will be key. And the young guy they have looks to be on great trajectory.
In the Atlantic I would be surprised if Yzerman expected a play off spot when season started. Then theyvwere knocking right at the door in game 82.
Wings are moving up in the east according to plan.
Wish I could say the same for the other bottom feeders in the Atlantic.

People don't seem to get that.

Started with Mantha as his 2nd best player and Zadina and Veleno as his best prospects. Has had 7 first round picks and only two are actually solidified in the NHL yet.

But for some reason he was supposed to turn the team around in 5 years from the dumpster fire Holland left it as.

 

[syz]

I have nothing personal against Wings fans or Yzerman.

I think just goes to show how much luck has to do with the perception of competence or excellence. Holland was once the class of the league with his 1995-2010 ish red wings. All on the back of inheriting Steve Yzerman and drafting franchise cornerstones with a third round pick (Lidstrom) , a 7th round pick (Zetterberg) and a 6th round pick (Datsyuk)

Yzerman was considered a hockey genius for building the foundation for the tampa bay dynasty.

But he himself inherited Stamkos and Hedman, and drafted his own franchise cornerstones in the 2nd round (Kucherov) third round (Point). I don't care what anyone says, when you pick busts before franchise players, you simply got lucky. Yes you deserve credit for drafting those players and recognizing their potential, but if they really knew how good these players would have been they would have been their first picks in the draft.

With drafting in particular it's important to remember as well that there's a lot of voices involved beyond the GM. Holland probably didn't even have much of a say on/know much about any of Lidstrom, Zetterberg, or Datsyuk and was just trusting his regional scouts.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Could still have traded him at the end of this season since Hronek is a RFA.

And likely are not getting a pick that was valued at ~13th- 17th + 2nd

Hroneks value at the time was the highest it ever was.

He’s made mistakes but the Hronek trade wasn’t one of them

 

[Fatass]

And likely are not getting a pick that was valued at ~13th- 17th + 2nd

Hroneks value at the time was the highest it ever was.

He’s made mistakes but the Hronek trade wasn’t one of them

50 point plus 40 top pairing D are easy to find.

 

[The Macho King]

I have nothing personal against Wings fans or Yzerman.

I think just goes to show how much luck has to do with the perception of competence or excellence. Holland was once the class of the league with his 1995-2010 ish red wings. All on the back of inheriting Steve Yzerman and drafting franchise cornerstones with a third round pick (Lidstrom) , a 7th round pick (Zetterberg) and a 6th round pick (Datsyuk)

Yzerman was considered a hockey genius for building the foundation for the tampa bay dynasty.

But he himself inherited Stamkos and Hedman, and drafted his own franchise cornerstones in the 2nd round (Kucherov) third round (Point). I don't care what anyone says, when you pick busts before franchise players, you simply got lucky. Yes you deserve credit for drafting those players and recognizing their potential, but if they really knew how good these players would have been they would have been their first picks in the draft.

He also drafted and developed a lot of the great supporting cast that gets so much love when looking back at those teams.

But I disagree with the bolded. If I know that Nikita Kucherov is the best player in the draft, but I also know that he's probably not going (absent my pick) until the third round, why wouldn't I spend the first round pick on someone who I don't expect to stick around? Obviously this logic only holds if we're talking about guys who are expected to slip rounds (rather than a few picks), but maximizing EV would be to take a recognized first round talent in the first round, and then pick the guy you think will surpass them slightly before they're expected to go.

That all being said - I don't think anyone expected Kucherov to be a consensus top 5 player in the league for nearly a decade. But he was always going to be a boom/bust prospect.

 

[Ezekial]

50 point plus 40 top pairing D are easy to find.

Tbf, we watched Hronek on a top pairing without Quinn Hughes. He was not +40. Paced 50 points, though.
He was usurped.

 

[hoglund]

The plan has already been criticized, but when the Leafs miss the playoffs is when it will be warrented.

 

[BHD]

If you just look at their record, then you can say they came close this season. So it has to be playoffs or bust next season. Lalonde has to be on notice, right?

 

[Frank Drebin]

He also drafted and developed a lot of the great supporting cast that gets so much love when looking back at those teams.

But I disagree with the bolded. If I know that Nikita Kucherov is the best player in the draft, but I also know that he's probably not going (absent my pick) until the third round, why wouldn't I spend the first round pick on someone who I don't expect to stick around? Obviously this logic only holds if we're talking about guys who are expected to slip rounds (rather than a few picks), but maximizing EV would be to take a recognized first round talent in the first round, and then pick the guy you think will surpass them slightly before they're expected to go.

That all being said - I don't think anyone expected Kucherov to be a consensus top 5 player in the league for nearly a decade. But he was always going to be a boom/bust prospect.

You're suggesting that in Stevey Y's big brain that he knew that Kucherov would be a hall of famer but decided to risk it in order to nab Namestekov with the first rounder? That is good risk management to you? That hes "probably" going to be there at 58th overall?

Took the risk that Vasilevski wouldn't be there at 19 in order to snipe Slater Kookoek?

Was more worried about Johnathan Macleod being stolen at 58th overall than he was about Brayden Point being picked by someone with the 70-75th?

Either he is a poor judge of high end talent at the top end of the draft or he just got lucky with later picks. It can't be neither.

 

[The Macho King]

You're suggesting that in Stevey Y's big brain that he knew that Kucherov would be a hall of famer but decided to risk it in order to nab Namestekov with the first rounder?

Took the risk that Vasilevski wouldn't be there at 19 in order to snipe Slater Kookoek?

Was more worried about Johnathan Macleod being stolen at 58th overall than he was about Brayden Point being picked by someone with the 70-75th?

Either he is a poor judge of high end talent at the top end of the draft or he just got lucky with later picks. It can't be neither.

I clearly didn't make that point, but I hope you had fun beating up that strawman.

 

[Frank Drebin]

But I disagree with the bolded. If I know that Nikita Kucherov is the best player in the draft, but I also know that he's probably not going (absent my pick) until the third round, why wouldn't I spend the first round pick on someone who I don't expect to stick around?

Sure sounds like thats the point you were trying to make. Its a foolish one IMO.

 

[The Macho King]

Man if you spent time reading the rest of the post you may have actually gotten to the point.