When did Gretzky become the GOAT

[ted2019]

I personally had Gordie Howe as the GOAT in the first round vote we had on the new top 100 players of all time edition.

 

[ted2019]

You are forgetting ovi.

Ovechkin great scorer and should get more credit for his passing and physical play, but he finished 22nd in our latest top 100 edition that is currently going on.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Gretzky is the GOAT and the best player ever. Orr might have a case for best, but Lemieux? What's his argument? Gretzky beats him for awards, peak, prime, playoffs, half season fantasy paces, single season totals, multiple season totals, adjusted pts, peak adjusted pts, PPG..Gretzky beats Lemieux in basically everything. It's actually kind of ridiculous at this point that people still try to "argue" Lemieux is better.

 

[Hockeyholic]

No, it's not

He's the greatest ever, sure. But there are plenty of fans who have Orr and/or Lemieux above him as the best

There are even arguments to be made that Crosby and McDavid are better than he ever was


As for when he became recognized as the greatest? I'll leave that for the more qualified among us to decide

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

Gretzky breaking the points record at 28 is so mind-blowing. I think Crosby was outside of the top 100 at that point in his career. Or to put it in perspective Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was about to turn 37 when he broke the NBA record. Sports scoring records should be broken when you are in your late 30s and grinding out solid all-star seasons

 

[tempofound]

Gretzky breaking the points record at 28 is so mind-blowing. I think Crosby was outside of the top 100 at that point in his career. Or to put it in perspective Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was about to turn 37 when he broke the NBA record. Sports scoring records should be broken when you are in your late 30s and grinding out solid all-star seasons

Gordie became #1 at 32 i believe, although he was already #2 by 28.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Gretzky is the GOAT and the best player ever. Orr might have a case for best, but Lemieux? What's his argument? Gretzky beats him for awards, peak, prime, playoffs, half season fantasy paces, single season totals, multiple season totals, adjusted pts, peak adjusted pts, PPG..Gretzky beats Lemieux in basically everything. It's actually kind of ridiculous at this point that people still try to "argue" Lemieux is better.

A long time ago i used to try Lemieux in that role, but i guess it was amongst other things lower league averages as he is four to five years younger, and that his goal scoring held out better as the full Roy effect came into effect. Maybe playing under 100 percent often could explain why he between his best seasons did not score at a 200 point rate and make that believable. But i stopped trying this a long time ago now, if you manage to portray to someone that he at his very best was equal to Gretzky, you have done a GOAT job.
Besides, Lemieux would probably not be Lemieux without Gretzky showing him the ropes during the 1987 Canada Cup. Too bad he was not picked for the 1984 edition. Maybe that back of his would be taken better care of. Or did he turn it down? In that case he made a grave mistake.


So how about this:

• Greatest: Gretzky (His brain was great for more than just on-ice antics)
• Best: Orr (Even though i claim its good enough to make him the GOAT, but i'm in the minority not the least becouse his longivety is striking for anyone to see)
• "Talent": Lemieux (His brain might have been good enough if it did not lack discipline, even though i still claim that his extreme height made his back harder to handle in that era, marginally like Orr's knees)
• Package(AKA Mr. Hockey): Howe. He has one season someone could claim being the best ever... Prime someone would need to be Sean Avery not to give him clear cut... Most complete is certainly debatable... And physicality amongst these 4 players is no competition, even though some single metrics will go to someone of the others especially if skating and hands etc is included... He was mentally probably the toughest of the bunch.

 

[Video Nasty]

I believe if Gretzky had retired in summer 1988 (and never gone to L.A., etc.), most of us would still be ranking him the greatest player.

Right there is what makes me think most of the arguments people make for other players over him come down to boredom: his dominance was so extreme, his numerous mind boggling records still stand to this day and will until scoring alters dramatically, and quite frankly, there’s no real argument for him not being the best so it’s not much fun for people to discuss.

If he retired after those 9 insane seasons, the people who love projecting out pace and wondering what if all the time could debate the question with relish. Most of the people who talk about Orr and Lemiuex’s shorter careers would be right there championing the guy who had basically a perfect score on all accounts through 9 years.

Gretzky is the only example we have of someone who did it all. He had the complete and utter dominance, he had his own examples of injuries that knocked him down a peg but he still played nearly 1500 regular season games and another 200+ in the playoffs. There’s no real projecting with him. He did what all the other example players did (and more) then he still had another Hall of Fame worthy career after those first 9 seasons of otherworldly dominance.

People are more interested in mysteries and what if theories than what actually happened a lot of time.

 

[psycat]

I personally had Gordie Howe as the GOAT in the first round vote we had on the new top 100 players of all time edition.

Nvm

 

[VanIslander]

for starters, Orr is the best hockey player in history.

Gretzky had the best career.

He probably locked up best career in 1988-89.

At that point he had:

8x Hart
8x Ross
5x Rocket
4x Cup
2x Smythe
10x led in assists

Exactly.

 

[ozzie]

1986 after he had recorded 4x 200+ point seasons and threw in a mortal 196 point season. Sorry what? He also destroyed the goal scoring season totals; his numbers were just insane, comic book like. He lapped the field. The reaction to Bobby Orr in the early 70's was probably the same. But Gretzky just took it to another out of this world level.

His numbers are so ridiculous people cannot rationalize them today so Gretzky's status continues to get challenged, they are unbelievable. He gets underrated as a result of the craziness.

In the early 80's Edmonton had Gretzky and the dynasty Eskimos, was a legendary time. Good times and memories. Gretzky is the original GOAT.

 

[L L]

Don't forget the Trappers and the Golden Bears.

 

[Derg12]

Gretzky's 50 in 39 sealed the deal - he was 20 years old.

 

[Tuna Tatarrrrrr]

Gretzky is the GOAT and the best player ever. Orr might have a case for best, but Lemieux? What's his argument? Gretzky beats him for awards, peak, prime, playoffs, half season fantasy paces, single season totals, multiple season totals, adjusted pts, peak adjusted pts, PPG..Gretzky beats Lemieux in basically everything. It's actually kind of ridiculous at this point that people still try to "argue" Lemieux is better.

Only Pens fans try to convince us that Lemieux > Gretzky.

Is Lemieux in the same tier than Gretzky? Sure! Is Lemieux better than Gretzky? No f***ing way! Gretzky was clearly the superior player and always beat Lemieux in head to head in every stats. Gretzky even helped Lemieux to become a true leader which he was not prior 1987 Canada Cup.

 

[TheGuiminator]

His run in Edmonton alone is greatest of all time worthy

 

[WingsFan95]

for starters, Orr is the best hockey player in history.

Gretzky had the best career.

He probably locked up best career in 1988-89.

At that point he had:

8x Hart
8x Ross
5x Rocket
4x Cup
2x Smythe
10x led in assists

Agreed. When he was traded to the Kings and ended up with the Hart and beat his former team that pretty well sealed it for most casual fans.

Which is why he lost Hart trophies to his own teammate. Prime Gretzky never lost to anybody. Not even close.

Cause it was a joke vote at that time. He also lost a Hart to Bobby Clarke in which he lead the league in points for the 2nd and last time by a defenseman, but ya, Gretzky never lost a deserving Hart.

 

[The Panther]

Cause it was a joke vote at that time. He also lost a Hart to Bobby Clarke in which he lead the league in points for the 2nd and last time by a defenseman, but ya, Gretzky never lost a deserving Hart.

There was indeed a preference for forwards over defencemen for the Hart trophy traditionally, but I wouldn't say the Hart was a "joke vote" at that time. I think they got it right most of the time. The better way to look at defencemen's hardware, certainly, is by Norris voting, not by Hart voting. (We should show some respect for Bobby Clarke, too, an incredibly effective player who led an expansion team to 1st and the Stanley Cup.)

As to Gretzky never losing a deserving Hart, I would argue he should have won the Hart after 1990-91. (But then again, he probably shouldn't have won the Hart after 1988-89, so the tallies are the same.)

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

By the 81-82 season, he had won over even some of the most hardened skeptics, except for Dick Beddoes. By the time he won the Cup in 84 the consensus was almost universal.

 

[blood gin]

His 2nd year he set the NHL record for assists in a season and points in a season. 1980-1981. There was talk then he could become the best. He wasn't the best yet. But his critics were quieted.

 

[Messrules11]

For me it was the ‘84-‘85 playoff. The Oilers won the cup in 18 games going 16-2 and Gretzky had 47 points. 17g-30a
Next year he demolished his own assist record and hit 215 points, which will stand for all-time

 

[The Panther]

By the 81-82 season, he had won over even some of the most hardened skeptics, except for Dick Beddoes.

Don't forget the Big Apple wind-bag, Stan Fischler!

Dick Beddoes gets kind of a bad rap. I don't actually think Beddoes had anything in particular against Gretzky -- not any more than he had against Lafleur, Bossy, Dionne, etc. Beddoes was just really into the old-school hockey of the 50s and couldn't get past it.

But Fischler had a massive hate for everything to do with Glen Sather, Gretzky, or the Oilers.

 

[The Panther]

For me it was the ‘84-‘85 playoff. The Oilers won the cup in 18 games going 16-2 and Gretzky had 47 points. 17g-30a
Next year he demolished his own assist record and hit 215 points, which will stand for all-time

Not that it matters, but they were actually 15-3 in 1985, and 16-2 in 1988. One of the Gretzky stats that jumps out is his +27 in 18 games in the 1985 playoffs.

 

[Messrules11]

Not that it matters, but they were actually 15-3 in 1985, and 16-2 in 1988. One of the Gretzky stats that jumps out is his +27 in 18 games in the 1985 playoffs.

My bad for not researching. Went off memory alone. Not bad though eh? Yeah ‘88 was remarkable as well. To think Pocklington sold him after that... Blasphemy

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

When I started following the NHL ca 1991-92 it was already seen as consensus. And thats really kind of the only thing that matters. There’ll always be contrarians, morons and extremely biased people, so nothing is unanimous.

 

[blood gin]

Don't forget the Big Apple wind-bag, Stan Fischler!

Dick Beddoes gets kind of a bad rap. I don't actually think Beddoes had anything in particular against Gretzky -- not any more than he had against Lafleur, Bossy, Dionne, etc. Beddoes was just really into the old-school hockey of the 50s and couldn't get past it.

But Fischler had a massive hate for everything to do with Glen Sather, Gretzky, or the Oilers.

I don't know about hate. Basically he's just an old timey guy that likes to stir things up. To him that Islander team was the reincarnation of the Brooklyn Americans that had been stolen from him when he was young (and whose return to the NHL was quashed by the Rangers) so the Oilers beating them and ending that dynasty probably hurt pretty bad. Plus he disliked the Oilers cockiness at the time