When did Gretzky become the GOAT

Ctrain2k

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Dec 3, 2016
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It’s universally agreed upon in the hockey community that Gretzky is the best ever. But when did people actually start to agree upon this? Surly there were people who were reluctant and claimed Howe or Orr as the goat. So the question is when did the hockey community embrace Gretzky as the greatest ever?
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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It’s universally agreed upon in the hockey community that Gretzky is the best ever. But when did people actually start to agree upon this? Surly there were people who were reluctant and claimed Howe or Orr as the goat. So the question is when did the hockey community embrace Gretzky as the greatest ever?

No, it's not

He's the greatest ever, sure. But there are plenty of fans who have Orr and/or Lemieux above him as the best

There are even arguments to be made that Crosby and McDavid are better than he ever was


As for when he became recognized as the greatest? I'll leave that for the more qualified among us to decide
 

Rarename91

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Jan 18, 2019
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No, it's not

He's the greatest ever, sure. But there are plenty of fans who have Orr and/or Lemieux above him as the best

There are even arguments to be made that Crosby and McDavid are better than he ever was


As for when he became recognized as the greatest? I'll leave that for the more qualified among us to decide
You are forgetting ovi.
 

Khomutov

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Sep 22, 2015
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No, it's not

He's the greatest ever, sure. But there are plenty of fans who have Orr and/or Lemieux above him as the best

There are even arguments to be made that Crosby and McDavid are better than he ever was


As for when he became recognized as the greatest? I'll leave that for the more qualified among us to decide

Lol who are this people.
 

Pominville Knows

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Sep 28, 2012
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Down Under
for starters, Orr is the best hockey player in history.

Gretzky had the best career.

He probably locked up best career in 1988-89.

At that point he had:

8x Hart
8x Ross
5x Rocket
4x Cup
2x Smythe
10x led in assists
Don't forget Howe though! He is not the GOAT either, but he had a better career than Orr.
But yeah, the exact moment 99 passed 9 might depend on what weight one puts on Howe's at least 20 year long Prime, not counting his WHA days. But surely Gretzky passed him close to 10 years before he retired, before he broke the career goals record, and he was always the supreme talent.

Still Orr is the GOAT talent.
 
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MadLuke

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Jan 18, 2011
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Probably depend in your city, in 92-93 Lemieux challenging him when not even better was a common view where I was from.
 

Nathaniel

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Oct 18, 2013
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Not universally accepted. Plenty of people go for 66/4/9 however I’m too young to comment on anything else
 

L L

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Mar 21, 2019
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It seemed that many people started accepting Gretzky as GOAT after the last SC run. Others after the SC run in 93. By his 802nd goal, many casual fans seem to have accepted it.
 

L L

Registered User
Mar 21, 2019
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It will never be accepted by those who long for what might have been for Orr and Lemieux. There are also those who will only accept a tough guy to be the GOAT.
 

blood gin

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Jan 17, 2017
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It will never be accepted by those who long for what might have been for Orr and Lemieux. There are also those who will only accept a tough guy to be the GOAT.

I know what you mean, but what about Gretzky's mental toughness

Honestly even those who argue for Orr/Lemieux deep down know it's Gretzky
 

L L

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Mar 21, 2019
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Personally, I thought Gretzky surpassed Orr in the playoffs of 1988 and finally passed Howe in 1994.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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No, it's not

He's the greatest ever, sure. But there are plenty of fans who have Orr and/or Lemieux above him as the best

There are even arguments to be made that Crosby and McDavid are better than he ever was


As for when he became recognized as the greatest? I'll leave that for the more qualified among us to decide

What are those arguments? I am 100% sure that a prime Gretzky outscores Nikita Kucherov in his prime. How do I know? Because he had like 70 or 80 more points than Peter Stastny in his prime. As for Orr and Lemieux, there are those that think at their best they were similar to Gretzky at his best but they didn't have the staying power of Gretzky. No one had a better career. No one has come close.

I will suggest that when Gretzky broke Howe's points record it became pretty obvious he was the best of all-time. Why I pick this moment is because it was the last checkmark in Gretzky's career where he needed to pass Howe. He didn't pass him in goals until 1994, but there is no doubt in my mind Gretzky had the better career by then anyways. It was more symbolic.

I remember an interview Danny Gallivan did on Don Cherry's Grapevine show in 1986. Cherry asked him to pick his 1st and 2nd team all-stars all-time. Gallivan couldn't decide between Howe or Richard who should get the first right wing spot so he put them both there. As for centers he picked Gretzky quite easily and then picked Beliveau but explained it to Cherry. Cherry agreed with Beliveau in there too. So basically we are talking about a hockey legend like Gallivan at least considering him to be the best centre in NHL history by 1986. Not sure if he had him above Howe by then though.
 

Minar

Registered User
Aug 27, 2018
328
288
Gretzky is agreed by most to be the GOAT. Not by all but by most. Most casual hockey fans and hardcore hockey fans would agree. It is the anniversary of when 99 broke 802. It was then that he officially went from being the great one to the greatest one in the news media of that time. The greatest was on the cover of hockey news and spoken at the ceremony during the game. Was this the moment 99 became the greatest? I think he had it sealed by 1987 but this was when it became aaccepted by most. Gretzky wasn't the best player in the nhl by 1994 but it was that point when you could look back over his career and say he was the GOAT
 

c9777666

Registered User
Aug 31, 2016
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Gonna go in a different direction- before Gretzky and Lemieux, who was regarded as the GOAT center?

The legends before that- Shore, Orr, Richard, Mahovlich, Hull, Howe, etc. were defensemen and wingers.
 

psycat

Registered User
Oct 25, 2016
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for starters, Orr is the best hockey player in history.

Gretzky had the best career.

He probably locked up best career in 1988-89.

At that point he had:

8x Hart
8x Ross
5x Rocket
4x Cup
2x Smythe
10x led in assists

Just curious what would Gretzky have had to have done in order to pass Orr as "best player ever"? Put up 300 pts seasons? I mean I can see there is a case for Orr being better at their peaks but it's certainly very debatable, career obviously ain't.

Just imagine a world without Lemieux, Gretzky might look even more alien amongst forwards than Orr does amongst defencemen.
 

L L

Registered User
Mar 21, 2019
12
5
Face it. There is nothing Gretzky could ever have done to earn best player from certain Orr and Lemieux fans. They will never accept someone with Gretzky's style as the greatest. Plus, it is very hard to fight dreams of what if... For myself, I assume Hart, Pearson, HF board voters, and "The Hockey News" are probably not all wrong.

I continue to be in awe of some of my memories of Orr and Lemieux at their peak. I can see how tempting it would be to only remember that and assume it would have continued for at least 20 years, but that is highly improbable. Players whose game emphasizes speed or physical dominance usually taper off quickly when time catches up to them.

When Orr retired, he had played as long as Gretzky was in Edmonton. In that time, he had 3 Hart Trophies and 1 Pearson Trophy (now Lindsay Award). Maybe he gets two more before 1971. Depending on how you measure, he had 2 great playoffs, and 1 or 2 more good ones. Gretzky had 5 in that time. Orr was truly amazing, but playoffs, writers, and players all tell the story of a great player who was not quite as dominant as we remember.

Lemieux also had 3 Hart Trophies. With fewer injuries, he may have had 5. He had 2 dominant playoff performances and two other good ones. He had 4 Lindsay Awards. By these metrics, it appears that he is closer to Gretzky than Orr is. As for dominance, I do not accept that we can extrapolate the PPG over the missed games. It is far more probable that he would have slowed down as the interminable season ground him down. The distinct pattern is that Lemieux was amazing, but almost always fell just a little short of Gretzky.

I find it quite disrespectful and ignorant to boldly proclaim that any player is obviously the best and question the intelligence of those who disagree. However, by all that I can see, Gretzky had the best arguments for being the best after his time in Edmonton, and his playoff run in '93 followed by his last scoring title in his 15th year put away lingering questions.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
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Tokyo, Japan
In my opinion, Gretzky became the greatest player of all time (I'm never going to write "GOAT", which looks silly) in May, 1988, when the Oilers defeated Boston to win their 4th Stanley Cup in five years, and Gretzky won his 2nd Conn Smythe (though he probably could have had three or even four by then!).

At that moment, aged 27, this is what he had to show for nine NHL seasons:
-- 1669 RS points in 696 games (2.4 PPG, or 192 points per season for nine years)
-- 583 RS goals in 696 games (0.84 GPG, or 67 goals per season for nine years)
-- 1086 RS assists in 696 games (1.56 APG, or 125 assists per season for nine years)
-- plus 553 in 696 RS games (or +64 per season for nine years)
-- #1 all-time in RS assists (achieved by age 27)

-- 252 playoff points in 120 games played (2.1 PPG)
-- plus 89 in 120 playoff games played
-- #1 all-time in playoff scoring (achieved by age 26)

-- top 6 RS points' seasons in history (7 of the top 8)
-- top 8 RS assists' seasons in history

-- 7 Art Ross trophies (9 times PPG leader in 9 seasons)
-- 8 Hart trophies, all in a row
-- 2 Conn Smythe trophies (led the playoffs in scoring five times)
-- Seven times 1st team All Star, two times 2nd team

-- 3 x team finished 1st overall
-- 6 x team finished 1st in its division
-- nine playoff appearances in nine seasons, five trips to the Finals, four Stanley Cups

In addition to all that, he led three Canada Cup teams in scoring in three tournaments, with his team winning twice.

So, yeah, not bad for a guy who entered the NHL on an expansion team with two other protected players.

I believe if Gretzky had retired in summer 1988 (and never gone to L.A., etc.), most of us would still be ranking him the greatest player.
 

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