What's the strategy with the bottom 6?

[Faltorvo]

It isn't. You could argue that Winnik has been a better player defensively as well, being the top PKer for Anaheim this past season.

If the way you gauge a player is by his contract and length of term, it's safe to say that you don't know much about the player. Winnik for example, is pretty much a steal at this point... I'm not the one saying this, the hockey world is. Santorelli is another player that is said to be a good value contract right now.

Raymond was in the exact same boat, and that worked out. MacArthur? Same.

I can't believe you're whining that the Leafs signed scrubs instead of re-signing players like Bolland, Raymond and Kulemin to their contracts. Mind blowing. Even if we had the most cap space in the history of cap space, I wouldn't have signed any of those players to their contracts, so it really worked out.

to what I bolded.

I judge a player on what they can get on the open market and what their perceived value is across the entire league. If the best they can do is pull out a career saving 1y/m contract well expect to get what you pay for is my motto on that.

santa is a 28 year old journeyman who is on his 4th team in 3 years , drafted 10 years ago with only 257 games players and a stellar -43, fall in love if ya want, I ain't impressed.

winnik journeyman 5 team in 5 years, 29 years old very hohum career, like I said,2 examples right there of guys on the fringe of being out of the nhl.

kontiola 29 never was good enough to play in the nhl or did not have the desire to, either way, these will be his first ever games against the big boys, again major hohum.

koma 27 and only 42 nhl games played, again hohum,

when you are talking about IMPROVING the 8th last place team and the likes of Bolland,Kuli,ray ray, I find it beyond hohum in comparison.

I think folks keep forgetting this is all bases on the premise that the 8th last place team needed major work to "just compete for a lowly playoff spot"

 

[Mess]

I think this way as well. Frattin and Bodie are press box to start.
Defense will have 7 for a 23 man roster.

Injuries will happen. We have the depth to deal with it as long as Kessel or JVR don't get injured.
It would be nice to have Nylander close by in that case.

I think the Leafs have bottom 6 depth but not a lot of top 6 depth in case of injuries.

Last year players like Kulemin, Raymond and Bolland were all capable if required to step up into the top 6 and fill in temporarily if required.

Leafs have a lot more question marks now among their bottom 6 and few have ever played top 6 roles at the NHL level outside of Booth perhaps and that was years ago before his concussion and decline over the years.

The 2nd line RW spot is a big question mark heading into camp already as there are no certainties as to who might fill that spot based on available options among the bottom 6 forwards.

 

[Faltorvo]

My last point is that saying we need to sign 6 to 9 players to 1M contracts is completely exaggerated. We won't need. I can pretty much guarantee that without even looking at a crystal ball. It's exaggerating the situation. It isn't about how good or bad we will be.

Kadri will need to play a bit better in order to secure over 5M, especially since he's a RFA. He'll need to play like he did in 2012 for him to get over 5.5M as a RFA. And if he does play like he did in 2012, safe to say we got a really good top 6 center, if not top line.

Bernier playing like he did last season will make us a competitive team again. I mean, did we forget that we were in playoff spot for 80% of the season, if not more? The team was crap and we still managed to be competitive in the standings. That's some next level stuff... so why can't we be in the same boat this season and expect better defensive play overall?

With a team that seems a lot more rounded defensively upfront, we can only hope that it helps the defence and the goaltending in that department.

With that said, we'll be fine cap wise in order to hopefully get better as the years advanced and the cap keeps going up. If we are bad this season, safe to say there will be a purge and we'll have all the cap space in the world at that point.

what? of course it's about how good or bad we will be, that's what this is all about for gods sake, being a good team.

any team, EVERY TEAM finds a way to fit in under that cap, that IS the basis of the debate, it's WHAT kind of team or how good or bad that team end up being.

it is no accomplishment to fit 23 guys under the cap per say if it turns out to be yet again a 8th last place team or worse.

 

[Once]

to what I bolded.

I judge a player on what they can get on the open market and what their perceived value is across the entire league. If the best they can do is pull out a career saving 1y/m contract well expect to get what you pay for is my motto on that.

santa is a 28 year old journeyman who is on his 4th team in 3 years , drafted 10 years ago with only 257 games players and a stellar -43, fall in love if ya want, I ain't impressed.

winnik journeyman 5 team in 5 years, 29 years old very hohum career, like I said,2 examples right there of guys on the fringe of being out of the nhl.

kontiola 29 never was good enough to play in the nhl or did not have the desire to, either way, these will be his first ever games against the big boys, again major hohum.

koma 27 and only 42 nhl games played, again hohum,

when you are talking about IMPROVING the 8th last place team and the likes of Bolland,Kuli,ray ray, I find it beyond hohum in comparison.

I think folks keep forgetting this is all bases on the premise that the 8th last place team needed major work to "just compete for a lowly playoff spot"

What needed to be improved was the PK and our bottom six. We barely saw what bolland could bring to the table last year and he was asking for way too much. A third line centre at 5.5m is not worth it. Though he is a reliable bottom 6 forward, we now have invested in a few more options. Santa/winnik/komarov/kontiola are 4 diverse forwards. They provide the ability to play both centre and wing. Especially after seeing the collapse in our centr depth last season, that issue has been addressed. These 4 players provide the tremendous ability to fight along the boards and offer a real battle on the forecheck. Unlike Orr, mclaren, Ashton, McClemment, Raymond these new guys (along with frattin) are going to make teams work harder for the puck. The bottom six is going to be much harder to play against. My only question is booth, however his possession stats are good and that's was and still is an area to improve in.

Your argument seems to be that we should invest in higher talented bottom six guys. Which makes sense. But if we resigned kuli and bolland, we would not have signed Gardiner, Reimer (trade bait, solid backup) or Franson(also trade asset). The team has much more depth and we will finally be able to cycle four lines. Good teams cycle four lines not 3 and a half or 3.

 

[SprDaVE]

to what I bolded.

I judge a player on what they can get on the open market and what their perceived value is across the entire league. If the best they can do is pull out a career saving 1y/m contract well expect to get what you pay for is my motto on that.

santa is a 28 year old journeyman who is on his 4th team in 3 years , drafted 10 years ago with only 257 games players and a stellar -43, fall in love if ya want, I ain't impressed.

winnik journeyman 5 team in 5 years, 29 years old very hohum career, like I said,2 examples right there of guys on the fringe of being out of the nhl.

kontiola 29 never was good enough to play in the nhl or did not have the desire to, either way, these will be his first ever games against the big boys, again major hohum.

koma 27 and only 42 nhl games played, again hohum,

when you are talking about IMPROVING the 8th last place team and the likes of Bolland,Kuli,ray ray, I find it beyond hohum in comparison.

I think folks keep forgetting this is all bases on the premise that the 8th last place team needed major work to "just compete for a lowly playoff spot"

You judge a player based on what they get basically?

Clarkson is a great player and has a great contract because teams fought for him and we ended up winning that battle. That worked wonders for us. Same for Komisarek!!! I mean, he was payed how much for how long? Such a great player to have.

But let's discuss these players. Santorelli in particular has been a solid player since he broke out with Florida a couple seasons ago. He ended up in Vancouver and was a really good player. If he doesn't miss half of the season with an injury, he would have outscored Raymond, the player we didn't sign. If you don't believe me, ask the Canucks fans how good he was. His contract is pretty fair... so why are we complaining? Because he didn't get more years and more money? What kind of logic is this?

Winnik is a really good defensive player who has excelled in the role he plays and enjoyed a career year with Anaheim. Never was a fringe NHLer, always really good in his role. If you don't believe me, ask the Duck fans how well he played. But yeah, let's complain how bad he is because Raymond got more then him.

Kontiola is a mystery. Finnish fans like him but I haven't seen him play much out of the WC's to know.

I'm not falling in love. I'm trying to say they are far better valued players that the players they replaced. By far. They fit this team better and for cheaper. I've seen all the players play a lot except for Kontiola and they all have enjoyed a great year with their respective teams. Filling out your bottom 6 with cheaper options is far better then putting players like Raymond at 3.5M, Bolland at 5.5M and Kulemin at 4.1M.

Whether it makes us better or not is to be seen. I tend to think the players in that bottom 6 makes us more competitive, especially without McLaren and Orr in the fold. Depth is a bit better too.

 

[Once]

My only issue is top sixth depth. But if you're rebuilding your forward structure I believe that you should build from the bottom up. Expect a trade in the near future

 

[Faltorvo]

What needed to be improved was the PK and our bottom six. We barely saw what bolland could bring to the table last year and he was asking for way too much. A third line centre at 5.5m is not worth it. Though he is a reliable bottom 6 forward, we now have invested in a few more options. Santa/winnik/komarov/kontiola are 4 diverse forwards. They provide the ability to play both centre and wing. Especially after seeing the collapse in our centr depth last season, that issue has been addressed. These 4 players provide the tremendous ability to fight along the boards and offer a real battle on the forecheck. Unlike Orr, mclaren, Ashton, McClemment, Raymond these new guys (along with frattin) are going to make teams work harder for the puck. The bottom six is going to be much harder to play against. My only question is booth, however his possession stats are good and that's was and still is an area to improve in.

Your argument seems to be that we should invest in higher talented bottom six guys. Which makes sense. But if we resigned kuli and bolland, we would not have signed Gardiner, Reimer (trade bait, solid backup) or Franson(also trade asset). The team has much more depth and we will finally be able to cycle four lines. Good teams cycle four lines not 3 and a half or 3.

kamo,frat,winnik,santa,konti
bolland,kuli,mcclem,raymond, damigo

idk about you but I see a very serious down grade there in NHL experience skill and compete, all I see is atleast 4 27 to 29 year olds that are trying to save their collective nhl jobs.

 

[ULF_55]

Keeps the kids out of the line up.

Better prospects would have eliminated the need to sign a bunch of scrubbs.

 

[SprDaVE]

what? of course it's about how good or bad we will be, that's what this is all about for gods sake, being a good team.

any team, EVERY TEAM finds a way to fit in under that cap, that IS the basis of the debate, it's WHAT kind of team or how good or bad that team end up being.

it is no accomplishment to fit 23 guys under the cap per say if it turns out to be yet again a 8th last place team or worse.

I'm not saying it is? I'm saying that we can fit it in, which was the original point in the beginning. "How can we sign Bernier and Kadri AND fill the roster, OH EM GEE!!!"

It should get better though. Whether it does or not who knows. If it doesn't then we'll keep tweaking the roster and filling up the cap until something works... what can I say to that. It looked good on paper last season too but on paper never amounts to much.

 

[Once]

kamo,frat,winnik,santa,konti
bolland,kuli,mcclem,raymond, damigo

idk about you but I see a very serious down grade there in NHL experience skill and compete, all I see is atleast 4 27 to 29 year olds that are trying to save their collective nhl jobs.

I think you are underrating winnik and Santa quite a bit. Both have been great for their respective teams. Komarov is a great pestering player, exactly what we need. These guys aren't soft like Raymond. McClemment was our biggest loss IMO I'd prefer him over the likes of kontiola, that's part of the business. I only liked kuli because he could play both ends and was our only reliable defensive forward. However some of these new signings already have experience of doing that for western hockey clubs against western hockey clubs. If you play the business in a smart way like the leafs have surprisingly done you will see results. Trading draft picks for high paid bottom six players is not smart.

 

[Faltorvo]

You judge a player based on what they get basically?

Clarkson is a great player and has a great contract because teams fought for him and we ended up winning that battle. That worked wonders for us. Same for Komisarek!!! I mean, he was payed how much for how long? Such a great player to have.

But let's discuss these players. Santorelli in particular has been a solid player since he broke out with Florida a couple seasons ago. He ended up in Vancouver and was a really good player. If he doesn't miss half of the season with an injury, he would have outscored Raymond, the player we didn't sign. If you don't believe me, ask the Canucks fans how good he was. His contract is pretty fair... so why are we complaining? Because he didn't get more years and more money? What kind of logic is this?

Winnik is a really good defensive player who has excelled in the role he plays and enjoyed a career year with Anaheim. Never was a fringe NHLer, always really good in his role. If you don't believe me, ask the Duck fans how well he played. But yeah, let's complain how bad he is because Raymond got more then him.

Kontiola is a mystery. Finnish fans like him but I haven't seen him play much out of the WC's to know.

I'm not falling in love. I'm trying to say they are far better valued players that the players they replaced. By far. They fit this team better and for cheaper. I've seen all the players play a lot except for Kontiola and they all have enjoyed a great year with their respective teams.

Whether it makes us better or not is to be seen. I tend to think the players in that bottom 6 makes us more competitive, especially without McLaren and Orr in the fold. Depth is a bit better too.

I completely disagree with your use of "very good" in any category for 28/29 year olds that have turned into journeymen and the best they can do as UFAs is 1 million over 1 year , that to me describes bottom of the barrel scrubs just hanging onto their careers by a thread.

and these guys are to replace career nhl ers and improve the team? naw I ain't buying what's trying to be sold here.

 

[SprDaVE]

I completely disagree with your use of "very good" in any category for 28/29 year olds that have turned into journeymen and the best they can do as UFAs is 1 million over 1 year , that to me describes bottom of the barrel scrubs just hanging onto their careers by a thread.

and these guys are to replace career nhl ers and improve the team? naw I ain't buying what's trying to be sold here.

Career NHLers? Bolland the always injured third line center. Scored 40 points only once. Solid performer I guess. But he's paid more then pretty much our entire bottom 6... it's incredibly Pejorative Slured.

Kulemin? Can't score more then a handful of goals. Didn't make us better defensively or on the PK. Good player but it's not like he made us better... we finished 8th last... you keep telling me this.

Raymond? Not much better then anything we signed. Heck he was a bargain bin player last season... but now he was so important? What?

I'm saying less is more sometimes. Winnik and Santorelli in particular are great 2-way players that can chip in offensively and had great seasons last season. What they signed for is completely irrelevant to their potential contributions based on their previous seasons, just like signing Clarkson, Komisarek, and other decent players to terrible contracts doesn't make us better. Did you buy what they were feeding you when they signed those contracts? Did you think we'd have the best defence in the league or the best top 9 of the league?

I like Winnik, Santorelli, Booth, Kontiola, Komarov and Frattin a lot better then Orr, McLaren, Bolland, Raymond and Kulemin on the bottom lines, without even looking at the money. Then you look at the money, and it makes you cry tears of joy how much we are saving for about the same type of contributions.

 

[Faltorvo]

I think you are underrating winnik and Santa quite a bit. Both have been great for their respective teams. Komarov is a great pestering player, exactly what we need. These guys aren't soft like Raymond. McClemment was our biggest loss IMO I'd prefer him over the likes of kontiola, that's part of the business. I only liked kuli because he could play both ends and was our only reliable defensive forward. However some of these new signings already have experience of doing that for western hockey clubs against western hockey clubs. If you play the business in a smart way like the leafs have surprisingly done you will see results. Trading draft picks for high paid bottom six players is not smart.

I don't agree at all with your description of " been great for their respective teams"

winni and santa alone have been journeymen around to like 8 different teams over the past 8 combined seasons and just had to settle for a paltry bottom of the barrel 1 year deal. players that are "great" at anything for their teams don't get moved around like that, unless they have bad contract demands and for what they inked for as leafs, leads me to believe that was not an issue.

 

[Liminality]

I completely disagree with your use of "very good" in any category for 28/29 year olds that have turned into journeymen and the best they can do as UFAs is 1 million over 1 year , that to me describes bottom of the barrel scrubs just hanging onto their careers by a thread.

and these guys are to replace career nhl ers and improve the team? naw I ain't buying what's trying to be sold here.

What about Mason Raymond? Not saying any of these guys are going to redeem themselves playing for the Leafs but their are opportunities for them.

 

[Faltorvo]

What about Mason Raymond? Not saying any of these guys are going to redeem themselves playing for the Leafs but their are opportunities for them.

sure, we could pull out a Raymond, MacArthur type reclamation success out of them and those are maybes and pretty high water marks as reclamations go, but then I have to ask, to what end?

we just finished how many years in a row with one of those two names on our team playing well above their contract value and to what end? not much came out of it, I'd say.

odd, I thought the goal was to improve the team from it's pathetic 8th last place finish.

looks to me like we are on wing and prayer just to end up treading water, let alone improve.

 

[HeresJOHNNY]

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Frattin
Booth Santorelli Winnik
Komarov Holland Clarkson/Kontiola

Extra: Bodie, Leivo

 

[Liminality]

sure, we could pull out a Raymond, MacArthur type reclamation success out of them and those are maybes and pretty high water marks as reclamations go, but then I have to ask, to what end?

we just finished how many years in a row with one of those two names on our team playing well above their contract value and to what end? not much came out of it, I'd say.

odd, I thought the goal was to improve the team from it's pathetic 8th last place finish.

looks to me like we are on wing and prayer just to end up treading water, let alone improve.

I kinda agree they're throwing everything at the wall and hoping one out of the many work out. I wish we would have left some spots open for the younger guys but it's so saturated now with all these signings. I've only heard good things about Winnik so I don't mind him being a 4th line player who can play and Booth seems like they're trying to recapture another Raymond signing.

Saying that though, they're really pushing for better possession players in the bottom 6. I like the direction their going but they really are all question marks at the moment.

 

[gabeliscious]

My only issue is top sixth depth. But if you're rebuilding your forward structure I believe that you should build from the bottom up. Expect a trade in the near future

i think we will be fine. any of the guys in the bottom could fill in on the top 6 if they needed to (on the short term).

Keeps the kids out of the line up.

Better prospects would have eliminated the need to sign a bunch of scrubbs.

im not sure if its fair to label our recent signings scrubbs. imo komorov, winnik, santorelli, and bodie are all quality bottom 6 guys. things that we really lacked last season.

i also dont think just because some bottom 6 vets were brought in the kids wont get an opportunity.

players like ashton and holland killed it towards the end of last season with the marlies. its not unrealistic to think both could win a potential starting position over guys like booth and kontiola.

better prospects wouldnt have made a difference with these signings as a better prospect would ideally mean they are suited for a top 6 roll.

assuming komorov and winnik are locks, then the bottom 6 leaves some serious competition.

2 center spots for holland, kontiola, santorelli, smith
2 winger spots for frattin, ashton, booth, bodie, orr

the good news is because everyone is making so little we can afford to keep them up with the big club

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I kinda agree they're throwing everything at the wall and hoping one out of the many work out. I wish we would have left some spots open for the younger guys but it's so saturated now with all these signings. I've only heard good things about Winnik so I don't mind him being a 4th line player who can play and Booth seems like they're trying to recapture another Raymond signing.

Saying that though, they're really pushing for better possession players in the bottom 6. I like the direction their going but they really are all question marks at the moment.

If the youngsters like Holland + Ashton are really that good then they'll get their minutes but have to earn them. We shouldn't just hand them minutes because they are young.

After them the next wave of NHL potential youngsters are better suited to be in the minors in Leivo, Brown, McKegg, Nylander, Gauthier.

Having depth is a great thing as it gives options. Hopefully a youngster pushes aside someone like Booth and we can deal him for an asset similar to how Dustin Penner was eventually pushed out of the lineup in Anahiem this past season and they gained a 4th rounder in the process.

Or depth could eventually let us do the next a few pieces for a better piece (with a higher salary) deal like we did when acquiring Bernier or Versteeg for lesser pieces on cheap contracts like Frattin or Stalberg.

 

[Mess]

Keeps the kids out of the line up.

Better prospects would have eliminated the need to sign a bunch of scrubs.

The Hockey News ranked the Leafs prospect pool 29th overall and the Leafs went out and signed more UFAs and depth players then all other 29 organizations.

This two items are connected and "Don't play the Kids" the end result of rebuilding your entire bottom 6 with aging 28-30 year old vets at bargain bin prices and reclamation projects.

When you have a plan and are attempting to building towards having an ever improving team and continuous cup competitor then its counter productive to bring in a bunch of rental players each and every season that are not a part of the long term solution.. It would be better to "play the kids" give them experience and let them grow with the team.

Leafs current strategy seems to be Win Now, and likely because coach and GM know their time is running out without positive results.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

The Hockey News ranked the Leafs prospect pool 29th overall and the Leafs went out and signed more UFAs and depth players then all other 29 organizations.

This two items are connected and "Don't play the Kids" the end result of rebuilding your entire bottom 6 with aging 28-30 year old vets at bargain bin prices and reclamation projects.

When you have a plan and are attempting to building towards having an ever improving team and continuous cup competitor then its counter productive to bring in a bunch of rental players each and every season that are not a part of the long term solution.. It would be better to "play the kids" give them experience and let them grow with the team.

Leafs current strategy seems to be Win Now, and likely because coach and GM know their time is running out without positive results.

Don't people applaud Detroit for their development philosophy of keeping their prospects in the AHL until they are safely ripe? This is all while fielding a competitive team at the NHL level, and veterans in their bottom six.

Or can that argument only be used when it suits a certain agenda?

 

[hockeyfanz*]

kamo,frat,winnik,santa,konti
bolland,kuli,mcclem,raymond, damigo

idk about you but I see a very serious down grade there in NHL experience skill and compete, all I see is atleast 4 27 to 29 year olds that are trying to save their collective nhl jobs.

You are not wrong. This board is all about grass is always greener when speaking of other teams players....but when other teams players come here...heck..the grass IS always greener.

I am in agreement that these role players are probably no better than what was let go and shipped out. 100%. There is NO reason to believe otherwise. The main difference is that these guys are short term audition players that can walk at the end of the year much like Raymond did this year.

To say that this team has vastly improved is really just the usual off season optimism.

This to me..is Shanny tanking for high picks. Knowing full well that he hasn't really done much other than fill vacancies with cheaper options giving him more flexibility down the road.

TANK TEAM is what it is.

 

[xyzz]

Don't people applaud Detroit for their development philosophy of keeping their prospects in the AHL until they are safely ripe? This is all while fielding a competitive team at the NHL level, and veterans in their bottom six.

Or can that argument only be used when it suits a certain agenda?

yeah i think that argument only works for detroit. If a "kid" earns his spot, he'll get a chance.. thats the way it should be. These guys shouldnt just be given spots on an NHL team. Develop in the AHL, and show that you can excel in that league. If/when that happens, you'll get a shot in the NHL.

 

[Jes5ant]

I would go with:

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Booth
Komarov-Santorelli-Clarkson
Bodie-Holland-Winnick

With Kontiola, Ashton, Orr, etc... in the pressbox or Marlies.

This is the best idea. Brodie showed last year that he can drop them when needed. And when we play Philly we can put in Orr. Realistically Bodie and Clarkson should be enough to handle Rinaldo and Rosehill. That being said I'd like to see what Kontiola is all about. I think we'll see a few different lineups depending on the teams we face. A viable option is just to skate past the goons. The red wings went through the goon era with just Mcarty and Shanahan. That's essentially Brodie and Clarkson.

 

[zeke]

Strategy is obvious imo - have a bottom 6 that has two true all-around two-way third lines with size, speed, skill, and toughness.

And that's exactly what we have now with our bottom 6.

Booth/Holland - Konto - Clarkson
Komarov - Santo - Winnik

With one of those wingers on the 2nd line, of course.

And no, it doesn't matter which one of those lines you call third or fourth.

Finally, no more carrying a liability 4th line, and finallyngiving us a chance to score and maintain offensive pressure no matter which line is on the ice.