What's the strategy with the bottom 6?

[SprDaVE]

With this signing, Leafs can realistically only sign one of Bernier or Kadri next summer.

My bet is Nonis will try and sign Bernier, he has tied this team up so much with immovable contracts, it is the reality. Kadri is gone.

He will not move his only 2 under market value contracts, JVR and Bozak. These 2 are his only bargains on this team, and this is exactly what the Leafs need more of. Value contracts signed to a great number.

What? No.

The Leafs will need to sign 7 to 9 players with just over 15M to spend... right now. Most of the top 6 is locked up mixed with Komarov, Holland and Frattin. How is this having to chose between Kadri and Bernier?

With an increase in cap, which is likely to happen again, and also a contract like Reimer very likely traded at that point, we'll have more then enough money to re-sign Bernier, Kadri and fill the bottom 6 again with either some more bargain bins find or even re-signing the ones we have. There are also players that can be traded to make a bit more room like Lupul or even Phaneuf.

Also, if Kadri and/or Bernier need that much money for us to start being concerned about the cap, this bodes well that they had some pretty great seasons.

There is always this panic that we'll have so much problems the following year resigning a player or two but really, it rarely ever is.

 

[Faltorvo]

Orr in the AHL and Granberg up. Settled. We have more than enough room and bodies. The only reason we would need more space is to make a trade. The only reason we are making trades is to upgrade one of the more important pieces on the team, and that trade comes with the caveat of taking back a player anyway. Or, we suck and we move the most expensive pieces. We don't need money just sitting there doing nothing.

if you look at the post I was responding to, it was implied that we had the ability to drop 1 guy down and have about a million in cap space.

I was just pointing out that the mil will be eaten by the 7th D.

So yes we have just enough cap space to run with 23 players with 7 of them being D.

Frankly I disagree with your premise that we "don't need money sitting around"

I have always been of the belief that having 1/ 1.5m in cap space is a benefit , it relieves the pressure of making a trade that has to be an almost exact cap in/ cap out situation.

 

[ACC1224]

Cap won't be an issue. They will find space for Stamkos, then Tavares the following year.

 

[SprDaVE]

Cap won't be an issue. They will find space for Stamkos, then Tavares the following year.

2 ez for Dubas

 

[Faltorvo]

What? No.

The Leafs will need to sign 7 to 9 players with just over 15M to spend... right now. Most of the top 6 is locked up mixed with Komarov, Holland and Frattin. How is this having to chose between Kadri and Bernier?

With an increase in cap, which is likely to happen again, and also a contract like Reimer very likely traded at that point, we'll have more then enough money to re-sign Bernier, Kadri and fill the bottom 6 again with either some more bargain bins find or even re-signing the ones we have. There are also players that can be traded to make a bit more room like Lupul or even Phaneuf.

Also, if Kadri and/or Bernier need that much money for us to start being concerned about the cap, this bodes well that they had some pretty great seasons.

There is always this panic that we'll have so much problems the following year resigning a player or two but really, it rarely ever is.

what are you talking about, we just had a summer of cap issues.

have you forgotten that we just had to let all our UFAs walk for nothing because none of them could fit under our cap constraints?

and all this AFTER we bought out gleason and opened what? 3 million in cap space by doing so.


I don't know how you view cap space or what you do or do not call an issue but from my POV.

to finish 8th last

then have to buy out gleason to clear 3m cap space

lose Bolland ,Kuli,Raymond for nothing and fill their spots with 3 1 million dollar scape heap scrubs , to me that looks like a team that is getting worse not better.

at the best case , we have not improved this 8th last place team, so ya I'd call that serious cap issues.

 

[Joey Hoser]

So our cap issues prevented us from creating even worse cap issues by paying Bolland and Kulemin like 10 million combined?

That's not a problem.

 

[SprDaVE]

what are you talking about, we just had a summer of cap issues.

have you forgotten that we just had to let all our UFAs walk for nothing because none of them could fit under our cap constraints?

and all this AFTER we bought out gleason and opened what? 3 million in cap space by doing so.


I don't know how you view cap space or what you do or do not call an issue but from my POV.

to finish 8th last

then have to buy out gleason to clear 3m cap space

lose Bolland ,Kuli,Raymond for nothing and fill their spots with 3 1 million dollar scape heap scrubs , to me that looks like a team that is getting worse not better.

at the best case , we have not improved this 8th last place team, so ya I'd call that serious cap issues.

We let the players walk because they were asking too much, cap space or not. We are in cap hell because of this? No. Kulemin isn't worth over 4M. Bolland isn't worth 5.5M. Raymond isn't worth 3.5M. We were rumoured to be interested in re-signing them all especially Bolland who we offered 4.9M AAV. We almost traded Franson for Gorges, who's payed around 400k more then Franson right now.

Gleason was bought out because he sucked for his money. Everyone said he sucked but no one expected a buyout. If he was remotely decent he would have stayed, contract or not. I don't even think he would have stayed if he was paid 2M to 3M.

I'm not saying the Leafs had some questionable signings and trades (or non-trades) over the last 2 years but the comment I replied to directly is saying we will have to chose between 2 RFA's because we can't afford them both, which is pure bullcrap and you know it as well. There are countless of scenarios that can happen, all realistic, that can make it happen... heck even without moving many bodies we still can make it happen.

Worrying so much about the cap in a years time is a waste of time. So much can happen in that time frame... and if we truly do have to chose between players, it's probably because they excelled in the season and need a significant raise, which is a pretty good problem to have. Whether we have improved or not, I don't know... but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

 

[Mike Martin]

Are the Leafs seriously thinking about not carrying an Enforcer on the roster? Is Orr done?

 

[SprDaVE]

So our cap issues prevented us from creating even worse cap issues by paying Bolland and Kulemin like 10 million combined?

That's not a problem.

Yeah no kidding. A blessing in disguise. It's pretty funny that Winnik is a scrub but he outscored Kulemin by over 10 points.

I almost vomited that the Leafs offered Bolland 4.9M AAV. Good god...

 

[GalacticaActual]

I would go with:

JVR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Kadri-Booth
Komarov-Santorelli-Clarkson
Bodie-Holland-Winnick

With Kontiola, Ashton, Orr, etc... in the pressbox or Marlies.

 

[Holymakinaw]

what are you talking about, we just had a summer of cap issues.

have you forgotten that we just had to let all our UFAs walk for nothing because none of them could fit under our cap constraints?

and all this AFTER we bought out gleason and opened what? 3 million in cap space by doing so.


I don't know how you view cap space or what you do or do not call an issue but from my POV.

to finish 8th last

then have to buy out gleason to clear 3m cap space

lose Bolland ,Kuli,Raymond for nothing and fill their spots with 3 1 million dollar scape heap scrubs , to me that looks like a team that is getting worse not better.

at the best case , we have not improved this 8th last place team, so ya I'd call that serious cap issues.

LOL. This is 100% wrong, of course. We let them walk because we didn't want to pay what they wanted to stay here, and thank Gawd for that!!! If we HAD, we surely would have some serious cap problems. But we didn't, and so now we don't.

And if you think Santorelli, Winnik and Komarov are "scrap heap scrubs" then you really have no idea what you're taking about. We should finally be seeing some decent team D in Toronto. And you don't like it, eh?

 

[Faltorvo]

We let the players walk because they were asking too much, cap space or not. We are in cap hell because of this? No. Kulemin isn't worth over 4M. Bolland isn't worth 5.5M. Raymond isn't worth 3.5M. We were rumoured to be interested in re-signing them all especially Bolland who we offered 4.9M AAV. We almost traded Franson for Gorges, who's payed around 400k more then Franson right now.

Gleason was bought out because he sucked for his money. Everyone said he sucked but no one expected a buyout. If he was remotely decent he would have stayed, contract or not. I don't even think we would have stayed if he was paid 3M and under.

I'm not saying the Leafs had some questionable signings and trades (or non-trades) over the last 2 years but the comment I replied to directly is saying we will have to chose between 2 RFA's because we can't afford them both, which is pure bullcrap and you know it as well. There are countless of scenarios that can happen, all realistic, that can make it happen... heck even without moving many bodies we still can make it happen.

Worrying so much about the cap in a years time is a waste of time. So much can happen in that time frame... and if we truly do have to chose between players, it's probably because they excelled in the season and need a significant raise, which is a pretty good problem to have.

to what I bolded,

I'd argue that has been one of the leafs greatest down falls since the cap was created, that attitude you just expressed right there.

I agree with your premise that we won't HAVE to choose between berny and kadri, one just needs to look at the source of that post to understand that it was just a shot and kadri in his ever going kadri vs bozo debate.

but they will eat up about 11 million of the cap space once inked.

with a rise of say 4 million and that's being generous, we will have about 8.5m cap to ink up 7 players, one of them being the UFA Franson.

after following closely the cap over the last 3 years I have come to the conclusion that it's nothing but wishful thinking to hold to the belief that one can "trade away" their cap issues to create cap relief, we though that with more then a couple of players now and have yet to see it play out that way.

So from my pov, if we have that # under contract moving forward, it's ours and we are pretty much stuck with it or a replacement of equal cap hit.

 

[Once]

what are you talking about, we just had a summer of cap issues.

have you forgotten that we just had to let all our UFAs walk for nothing because none of them could fit under our cap constraints?

and all this AFTER we bought out gleason and opened what? 3 million in cap space by doing so.


I don't know how you view cap space or what you do or do not call an issue but from my POV.
to finish 8th last

then have to buy out gleason to clear 3m cap space

lose Bolland ,Kuli,Raymond for nothing and fill their spots with 3 1 million dollar scape heap scrubs , to me that looks like a team that is getting worse not better.

at the best case , we have not improved this 8th last place team, so ya I'd call that serious cap issues.

Those three were asking for way too much than the we're worth. I am happy with having winnik over bolland, booth over Raymond who can't stay on his feet and Santa at his price. We added depth and competitive players. Player who also have something to prove. We are a significantlybetter team. If we kept two of bolland, kuli, or Raymond we would be screwed next year when kadri and bernier are up. This org did a great job of forward thinking while making this team a better one.

 

[Faltorvo]

Yeah no kidding. A blessing in disguise. It's pretty funny that Winnik is a scrub but he outscored Kulemin by over 10 points.

I almost vomited that the Leafs offered Bolland 4.9M AAV. Good god...

ah yes, it's all about the scoring

it's all in one way of looking at it dave

I don't know about you but if the best a UFA can manage in a deal is a 1 year 1ish million dollar deal, that's a scape heap scrub/reclamation project.

 

[Mess]

Couldn't agree more. Leafs had an identity two seasons ago, they were tough to play against. They intimidated other teams. They played with swagger. This past year I hardly saw any of that.

Part to the reason to bring back Komarov and Frattin for the bottom 6 was because they had success during the only playoff year the Leafs have seen in the past 10 years.

However it was the physical component of the team as Orr, McLaren and Fraser trio lead the NHL in fighting majors and all three were often in the line-up together.

Now none of those 3 players would ever be considered irreplaceable players on their hockey skills alone, but it was their intimidation factor that made the Leafs teammates play with confidence and swagger. McLaren and Orr played as little back then as they did last year so they are not the reason the Leafs struggled.

This year Troy Bodie would have to be a regular to at least provide a little physical support and Clarkson will need a bounce back season. The reason Polak was acquired was to replace Fraser's old role to try and recaputure 2012-13 success.

 

[Joey Hoser]

ah yes, it's all about the scoring

it's all in one way of looking at it dave

I don't know about you but if the best a UFA can manage in a deal is a 1 year 1ish million dollar deal, that's a scape heap scrub/reclamation project.

This is so confusing. You complaining that our cap issues prevented us from signing Kulemin for like 4 million dollars which just would have created even more cap issues.

You aren't making any sense at all.

 

[SprDaVE]

to what I bolded,

I'd argue that has been one of the leafs greatest down falls since the cap was created, that attitude you just expressed right there.

I agree with your premise that we won't HAVE to choose between berny and kadri, one just needs to look at the source of that post to understand that it was just a shot and kadri in his ever going kadri vs bozo debate.

but they will eat up about 11 million of the cap space once inked.

with a rise of say 4 million and that's being generous, we will have about 8.5m cap to ink up 7 players, one of them being the UFA Franson.

after following closely the cap over the last 3 years I have come to the conclusion that it nothing but wishful thinking to hold to the belief that one can "trade away" their cap issues to create cap relief, we though that with more then a couple of players now and have yet to see it play out that way.

So from my pov, if we have that # under contract moving forward, it's ours and we are pretty much stuck with it or a replacement of equal cap hit.

They will definitely require raises. But with the cap increase you mentioned, you failed to mention very likely scenarios like TRADES. This team is not going to keep Reimer, Lupul and/or whoever else around if they need to sign the necessary players to be competitive.

With Kadri and Bernier taking 11M in cap space, heck let's make it 12M, this assumes that both have had career years and are pretty legit, especially for Kadri to be making around 6M AAV. This means we have to sign at least 4 to 7 players in order to round out the roster with about 3.5M in cap space in a 69M cap world. With the cap increasing likely another couple million, we'll probably have anywhere from 5M to 7M in cap space to fill out the roster, and that's with Reimer still onboard and other players that can be moved. That's with our top 9 close to locked out and the defence being locked up as well. The only needs here are a couple bottom 6 players.

I'm not disagreeing that there needs to be a plan in order to make sure the cap works ahead of time and that for high cap team the Leafs should be better but this notion that we will need to chose between 2 RFA's or that we won't even be able to compete because we'll need to 6 to 9 players at ~1M is really exaggerating the situation.

 

[Faltorvo]

Those three were asking for way too much than the we're worth. I am happy with having winnik over bolland, booth over Raymond who can't stay on his feet and Santa at his price. We added depth and competitive players. Player who also have something to prove. We are a significantlybetter team. If we kept two of bolland, kuli, or Raymond we would be screwed next year when kadri and bernier are up. This org did a great job of forward thinking while making this team a better one.

we could not have kept those 3 at even close to what the market deemed their worth without it causing a cap chain reaction that would have seen other players leave the team.

you believe that the team has improved, I believe ,at best we are the same or a 22nd place team , I believe the chances of this team doing even worse next year are high.

 

[Faltorvo]

This is so confusing. You complaining that our cap issues prevented us from signing Kulemin for like 4 million dollars which just would have created even more cap issues.

You aren't making any sense at all.

I'm not complaining,

I'm just stating a point of fact to rebutt those that believe we did not suffer cap issues this past summer.

we could not match what the market deemed to be their value,

 

[SprDaVE]

ah yes, it's all about the scoring

it's all in one way of looking at it dave

I don't know about you but if the best a UFA can manage in a deal is a 1 year 1ish million dollar deal, that's a scape heap scrub/reclamation project.

It isn't. You could argue that Winnik has been a better player defensively as well, being the top PKer for Anaheim this past season.

If the way you gauge a player is by his contract and length of term, it's safe to say that you don't know much about the player. Winnik for example, is pretty much a steal at this point... I'm not the one saying this, the hockey world is. Santorelli is another player that is said to be a good value contract right now.

Raymond was in the exact same boat, and that worked out. MacArthur? Same.

I can't believe you're whining that the Leafs signed scrubs instead of re-signing players like Bolland, Raymond and Kulemin to their contracts. Mind blowing. Even if we had the most cap space in the history of cap space, I wouldn't have signed any of those players to their contracts, so it really worked out.

 

[Faltorvo]

They will definitely require raises. But with the cap increase you mentioned, you failed to mention very likely scenarios like TRADES. This team is not going to keep Reimer, Lupul and/or whoever else around if they need to sign the necessary players to be competitive.

With Kadri and Bernier taking 11M in cap space, heck let's make it 12M, this assumes that both have had career years and are pretty legit, especially for Kadri to be making around 6M AAV. This means we have to sign at least 4 to 7 players in order to round out the roster with about 3.5M in cap space in a 69M cap world. With the cap increasing likely another couple million, we'll probably have anywhere from 5M to 7M in cap space to fill out the roster, and that's with Reimer still onboard and other players that can be moved. That's with our top 9 close to locked out and the defence being locked up as well. The only needs here are a couple bottom 6 players.

I'm not disagreeing that there needs to be a plan in order to make sure the cap works ahead of time and that for high cap team the Leafs should be better but this notion that we will need to chose between to RFA's or that we won't even be able to compete because we'll need to 6 to 9 players at ~1M is really exaggerating the situation.

if berny does what he did last season he will get a 5.5/6m deal and how far did bernys mvp type season get us last year?

all kadri needs to do is post a season between last year and the year before and that will get him easily into the 5/5.5m per conversation.

and I find you last line most vexing.

a 8th last place team and it's your contention that 6/9 1m players keeping us from competing is "exaggerating"?

I have to ask you "compete" for what? "just a playoff spot"? bottom 10 finish?

 

[Joey Hoser]

I'm not complaining,

I'm just stating a point of fact to rebutt those that believe we did not suffer cap issues this past summer.

we could not match what the market deemed to be their value,

Well I guess we just disagree on what the Leafs should be doing. I don't think they should pay guys like Bolland 5.5 million, there for it isn't an issue for me.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Well I guess we just disagree on what the Leafs should be doing. I don't think they should pay guys like Bolland 5.5 million, there for it isn't an issue for me.

Neither did the Leafs. I wouldn't worry too much about people complaining that we wouldn't or couldn't overpay for players like we have in the past. For once, we did the smart thing, and as shown in this thread, we STILL can't win.

LOL.

Just wait until we make the playoffs with all these "scrubs". There will be tons wrong then as well.

 

[SprDaVE]

if berny does what he did last season he will get a 5.5/6m deal and how far did bernys mvp type season get us last year?

all kadri needs to do is post a season between last year and the year before and that will get him easily into the 5/5.5m per conversation.

and I find you last line most vexing.

a 8th last place team and it's your contention that 6/9 1m players keeping us from competing is "exaggerating"?

I have to ask you "compete" for what? "just a playoff spot"? bottom 10 finish?

My last point is that saying we need to sign 6 to 9 players to 1M contracts is completely exaggerated. We won't need. I can pretty much guarantee that without even looking at a crystal ball. It's exaggerating the situation. It isn't about how good or bad we will be.

Kadri will need to play a bit better in order to secure over 5M, especially since he's a RFA. He'll need to play like he did in 2012 for him to get over 5.5M as a RFA. And if he does play like he did in 2012, safe to say we got a really good top 6 center, if not top line.

Bernier playing like he did last season will make us a competitive team again. I mean, did we forget that we were in playoff spot for 80% of the season, if not more? The team was crap and we still managed to be competitive in the standings. That's some next level stuff... so why can't we be in the same boat this season and expect better defensive play overall?

With a team that seems a lot more rounded defensively upfront, we can only hope that it helps the defence and the goaltending in that department.

With that said, we'll be fine cap wise in order to hopefully get better as the years advanced and the cap keeps going up. If we are bad this season, safe to say there will be a purge and we'll have all the cap space in the world at that point.

 

[crump]

JVR - Bozak - Kessel
Lupul - Kadri - Santorelli
Komarov - Kontiola - Clarkson
Booth - Holland - Winnik
-Bodie/Frattin/Ashton/Leivo

I think this way as well. Frattin and Bodie are press box to start.
Defense will have 7 for a 23 man roster.

Injuries will happen. We have the depth to deal with it as long as Kessel or JVR don't get injured.
It would be nice to have Nylander close by in that case.