What's the argument for Vladislav Tretiak as one of the very best in history?

[The Panther]

Владислав Третьяк / Vladislav Tretiak seems to be rated somewhat lower on this forum than in other circles, and notably lower than in non-North American circles (not that that's unusual!).

The obvious reason for this is that he never played in the NHL, so NHL-focused fans never had the chance to see him in a familiar context, but many fans (not me) did see him play against NHL-ers or WHA-ers in various tournaments and at the winter Olympics, etc. I suppose if you were an avid hockey fan in Canada or the U.S.A. in the 70s/80s, you had quite a few chances to see Tretiak.

It's not like Makarov or Fetisov really tore it up when they made the NHL as veteran players, yet the collective opinion of them on this forum seems to be higher than that of Tretiak.

So, I'm just wondering, does anyone out there rank Tretiak as high as the IIHF does, or can anyone explain why his stature, in North America anyway, seems to have fallen off a lot in the past couple of decades?

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[VanIslander]

The dynasty Habs couldn't pot a friggin' winning goal on a New Year's Eve game from my childhood.

"Why didn't we (Canada) win dad?"
"Tretiak."
"Oh."

Tretiak had a bit higher regard than Dryden relative to Sawchuk, Hall and Plante.

But a couple of decades later Roy & Hasek would blow them out of the water. There's no universe in which the top-2 goaltenders don't include Hasek and Roy.

 

[VanIslander]

Tarasov said the one position they needed to fix was netminder.

Then Tretiak came along.

 

[JackSlater]

Tretiak's ranking in general hockey discussion seems to have gone down over the years. That's among Joe Blow Canadian as opposed to Joe Blow HFboards poster, at least in my experience. I guess such things usually happen as time passes after a player retires, but Tretiak was very highly thought of for quite some time. Anyway I'm not a big Tretiak fan based on what I've seen but I look forward to reading some arguments for him beyond "c'monnn" and "biasss".

 

[Dingo]

He was nearly an Arthurian legend for me as a kid. Perhaps the announcers i heard, or the people around me, someone influenced it, but I was without a doubt under the impression that the best goalie in the world, and maybe ever, played for the Russians.... this would be maybe 1983 or 84.

To my own eyes now, watching games... I feel like he played too deep in his net and looked small because of it. Good reactions, but I haven’t really been wowed.

Bernie Parent in those Cup runs... now he makes me marvel.

Id need more games to take a stance. At this point i feel like Tretiak And Dryden both benefitted from the momentousness of those occasions, and also both from perfect team defence.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Last time the top 100 was done here, Tretiak was 50th and Dryden was 46th.

I had Tretiak at 29, Dryden at 43.

Unbiased American.

 

[Doctor No]

Unbiased American.

Other than not being Canadian or Russian, what makes you specifically unbiased on this subject?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

There has long been a tendency in Canadian hockey circles to blame the opposing goaltender whenever Canada loses, as if it's impossible that another nation could have had a better overall team. So there's that... and as the emotion of it fades, perhaps the rating of the opposing goaltender fades a little.

As for hfboards ranking vs the world - I don't think people in many other places realize that Jiri Holecek existed. Meaning that he beat out Tretiak more often than not for the World Championship All-Star nod in the late 1970s, and that many contemporary Europeans at the time preferred Holecek to Tretiak. Perhaps hfboards takes it to an extreme though - I've seen at least one poster say that goaltending is a major reason that CSSR basically had a 0.500 record vs a superior USSR team, though I haven't actually seen anything substantial to verify that opinion.

____

To make a very general statement - it is my impression that Tretiak impressed more in games against Canada than he did against the USSR's other rival Czechoslovakia. Not that he was bad against CSSR, just that they don't tend to view him in the same light as Canadians, from what information I have gathered.

Tretiak was also not good in the 1980 Miracle on Ice Olympics, right in between really being excellent against Canada/NHL All-Stars in 1979 and 1981.

So perhaps a big part of the disconnect involves what games one places a higher priority on.

 

[Dingo]

There has long been a tendency in Canadian hockey circles to blame the opposing goaltender whenever Canada loses, as if it's impossible that another nation could have had a better overall team. So there's that... and as the emotion of it fades, perhaps the rating of the opposing goaltender fades a little.

As for hfboards ranking vs the world - I don't think people in many other places realize that Jiri Holecek existed. Meaning that he beat out Tretiak more often than not for the World Championship All-Star nod in the late 1970s, and that many contemporary Europeans at the time preferred Holecek to Tretiak. Perhaps hfboards takes it to an extreme though - I've seen at least one poster say that goaltending is a major reason that CSSR basically had a 0.500 record vs a superior USSR team, though I haven't actually seen anything substantial to verify that opinion.

____

To make a very general statement - it is my impression that Tretiak impressed more in games against Canada than he did against the USSR's other rival Czechoslovakia. Not that he was bad against CSSR, just that they don't tend to view him in the same light as Canadians, from what information I have gathered.

Tretiak was also not good in the 1980 Miracle on Ice Olympics, right in between really being excellent against Canada/NHL All-Stars in 1979 and 1981.

So perhaps a big part of the disconnect involves what games one places a higher priority on.

‘places a high priority on’ OR ‘has even heard of, let alone seen’

most of my friends, and they are really into hockey, dont even know about 81 or 79, and i have never heard ANYBODY outside of here bring up world championships from back then.

 

[BadgerBruce]

There are many regular posters on this Board who possess greater knowledge of Tretiak’s career than I do, and I’m sure at least a few will offer their thoughts in this thread.

My own thoughts …

First, Tretiak’s career is all prime. From 1971-84, he was virtually synonymous with Soviet goaltending.

Who was the best NHL goaltender during this same period? Depending on the season, one could go with Dryden, Esposito, Cheevers, Vachon, Parent, Liut, and probably a few I’m missing. By 1972 at the very latest, Tretiak had clearly overtaken Viktor Konovalenko as the Soviets top goaltender and when he retired in 1984 he was still #1 and likely could have continued as such.

His domestic league competition for the mythical “nation’s greatest goaltender” title? No idea. He was Roy without Hasek and Brodeur, or Sawchuk without Plante and Hall, or even Dryden without Esposito and Parent. There’s just one guy — Tretiak — and there’s not a single Soviet goalie worthy of entering even the fringes of the 71-84 discussion.

So North Americans hem and haw about this and usually arrive at one of three conclusions:

#1: Tretiak is the greatest goalie in history. 14 straight first all-star teams and 5 player of the year awards in the Soviet domestic league and more World Championship and Olympic medals than anyone. Greatness is what greatness does, and Tretiak’s record speaks for itself.

#2: Tretiak is the best of a very bad (and thin) lot of Soviet goaltenders who played on a stacked domestic league team and (arguably) the greatest national team in history. Before Tretiak even came along, the Soviet national team won Olympic Gold in 64 and 68, plus World Championship Gold in 65, 66, 67, 69, 70, and 71. Never heard of the goaltenders during that extraordinary pre-Tretiak run? That’s because it didn’t matter — a shooter tutor would have sufficed, and Tretiak simply became the newest Soviet goalie to benefit from a great team playing in front of him.

#3: He’s the goalie who stymied Team Canada in 1972, a 20 year-old who came within 34 seconds of outright stealing the series for the Soviets and then continued to impress throughout the decade in a boatload of high profile games against NHL competition. Those who hold this view usually wrap it all up with something like, “I just wish he’d been allowed to play in the NHL so I could be sure.”

All three viewpoints lack nuance and context.

Did Tretiak shine for the entirety of his Soviet career? Yes. But did he outshine Holecek in World Championship competition? Not according to media and directorate voting. Did he lose three straight on home ice to Team Canada 72? Did he get pulled in the Miracle on Ice game? He’s hardly flawless.

Did Tretiak backstop domestic league and national team lineups that were simply loaded with talent? Yes. But 5 Player of the Year award wins tell us Tretiak was MUCH more than just a warm body in the crease. Given his competition for the SPOTY, 5 wins is beyond impressive and no accident. MVP of the 1981 Canada Cup isn’t going to a passenger.

Did he stymie the Canadians in 1972 and continue to shine against North American professionals? Yes. But let’s not forget that Phil Esposito scored 7 goals in 8 games against Tretiak, and two years later a 35 year-old Bobby Hull did the same thing in the WHA’s ‘74 Summit. Did I mention that Paul Henderson (of all people) also beat him 7 times in 8 games? So let’s not over-state Tretiak’s prowess against top pros.

So how should Tretiak be viewed? I’m personally a big believer in viewing game footage and evaluating players based on what they actually do over a range of games. If you do this with Tretiak, you can draw your own conclusions based on actual goaltending skill and techniques, instead of just numbers without context or anecdotes (both positive and negative) without verifiable evidence.

 

[BadgerBruce]

This isn’t Tretiak’s entire career, but it’s a quick way to see how every Team Canada ‘72 goal was scored. Pay particular attention to the slot and in tight to the crease.

 

[Zine]

There are many regular posters on this Board who possess greater knowledge of Tretiak’s career than I do, and I’m sure at least a few will offer their thoughts in this thread.

My own thoughts …

First, Tretiak’s career is all prime. From 1971-84, he was virtually synonymous with Soviet goaltending.

Who was the best NHL goaltender during this same period? Depending on the season, one could go with Dryden, Esposito, Cheevers, Vachon, Parent, Liut, and probably a few I’m missing. By 1972 at the very latest, Tretiak had clearly overtaken Viktor Konovalenko as the Soviets top goaltender and when he retired in 1984 he was still #1 and likely could have continued as such.

His domestic league competition for the mythical “nation’s greatest goaltender” title? No idea. He was Roy without Hasek and Brodeur, or Sawchuk without Plante and Hall, or even Dryden without Esposito and Parent. There’s just one guy — Tretiak — and there’s not a single Soviet goalie worthy of entering even the fringes of the 71-84 discussion.

So North Americans hem and haw about this and usually arrive at one of three conclusions:

#1: Tretiak is the greatest goalie in history. 14 straight first all-star teams and 5 player of the year awards in the Soviet domestic league and more World Championship and Olympic medals than anyone. Greatness is what greatness does, and Tretiak’s record speaks for itself.

#2: Tretiak is the best of a very bad (and thin) lot of Soviet goaltenders who played on a stacked domestic league team and (arguably) the greatest national team in history. Before Tretiak even came along, the Soviet national team won Olympic Gold in 64 and 68, plus World Championship Gold in 65, 66, 67, 69, 70, and 71. Never heard of the goaltenders during that extraordinary pre-Tretiak run? That’s because it didn’t matter — a shooter tutor would have sufficed, and Tretiak simply became the newest Soviet goalie to benefit from a great team playing in front of him.

#3: He’s the goalie who stymied Team Canada in 1972, a 20 year-old who came within 34 seconds of outright stealing the series for the Soviets and then continued to impress throughout the decade in a boatload of high profile games against NHL competition. Those who hold this view usually wrap it all up with something like, “I just wish he’d been allowed to play in the NHL so I could be sure.”

All three viewpoints lack nuance and context.

Did Tretiak shine for the entirety of his Soviet career? Yes. But did he outshine Holecek in World Championship competition? Not according to media and directorate voting. Did he lose three straight on home ice to Team Canada 72? Did he get pulled in the Miracle on Ice game? He’s hardly flawless.

Did Tretiak backstop domestic league and national team lineups that were simply loaded with talent? Yes. But 5 Player of the Year award wins tell us Tretiak was MUCH more than just a warm body in the crease. Given his competition for the SPOTY, 5 wins is beyond impressive and no accident. MVP of the 1981 Canada Cup isn’t going to a passenger.

Did he stymie the Canadians in 1972 and continue to shine against North American professionals? Yes. But let’s not forget that Phil Esposito scored 7 goals in 8 games against Tretiak, and two years later a 35 year-old Bobby Hull did the same thing in the WHA’s ‘74 Summit. Did I mention that Paul Henderson (of all people) also beat him 7 times in 8 games? So let’s not over-state Tretiak’s prowess against top pros.

So how should Tretiak be viewed? I’m personally a big believer in viewing game footage and evaluating players based on what they actually do over a range of games. If you do this with Tretiak, you can draw your own conclusions based on actual goaltending skill and techniques, instead of just numbers without context or anecdotes (both positive and negative) without verifiable evidence.

Soviet goaltending, although never great in depth, escalated immensely from the 50s to the 70s (like every other position). Look at how Tretiak's backup Myshkin performed in 1984 Canada Cup; a great player in his own right and miles ahead of every past Soviet goaltender. I'd even say Sidelnikov was well ahead of Konovalenko. The position dipped in the later 80s/early 90s but only because Belosheikin was a drunk and probable back-up Irbe was Latvian.

That said, I think the defense in front of Tretiak is vastly overrated. Beyond the top guys in the 70s like Vasilyev (Dynamo) and Lutchenko, who were 100% elite, there was very little depth. Tsygankov was good and Gusev could be good at times. But beyond them? Ugh.

 

[Albatros]

The IIHF voters were absolutely right to choose him as the Centennial All-Star goaltender based on his achievements. But just the same it's also correct to see that goaltending has evolved greatly and that his play can not really be compared favorably to the likes of Hašek and Roy anymore. What would be wrong is placing him behind other goaltenders of his era.

 

[Zine]

He was nearly an Arthurian legend for me as a kid. Perhaps the announcers i heard, or the people around me, someone influenced it, but I was without a doubt under the impression that the best goalie in the world, and maybe ever, played for the Russians.... this would be maybe 1983 or 84.

To my own eyes now, watching games... I feel like he played too deep in his net and looked small because of it. Good reactions, but I haven’t really been wowed.

Bernie Parent in those Cup runs... now he makes me marvel.

Id need more games to take a stance. At this point i feel like Tretiak And Dryden both benefitted from the momentousness of those occasions, and also both from perfect team defence.

I'm not overly sold on Dryden though. If anything, unlike Tretiak, international competition exposed the glaring weakness of his game. It didn't hinder him much in the NHL, but the USSR's east/west style of game really exposed his underdeveloped side-to-side movement.

 

[double5son10]

To make a very general statement - it is my impression that Tretiak impressed more in games against Canada than he did against the USSR's other rival Czechoslovakia. Not that he was bad against CSSR, just that they don't tend to view him in the same light as Canadians, from what information I have gathered.

Tretiak was also not good in the 1980 Miracle on Ice Olympics, right in between really being excellent against Canada/NHL All-Stars in 1979 and 1981.

So perhaps a big part of the disconnect involves what games one places a higher priority on.

Tretiak was actually terrible in the Challenge Cup in '79; Game 1 stopping 20/24 & Game 2 12/16, for a combined .800 Save% between the two games. He was benched by Tikhonov for the deciding Game 3, with Myshkin getting the shutout (as an aside Myshkin was quite good in '84).

I also don't think he was particularly good in '72 once the games moved to Moscow. Henderson's GW goal in Game 6 was SOFT, and he and the rest of the Soviet defense really wilted in the 3rd period of Game 8, Henderson's series winner due to poor rebound control.

That said he was generally very good against Canada/NHL teams. I think he was better in '74 against the WHA and he was FANTASTIC in the '81 CC. He also got a lot of mileage out of the games in Montreal in both '75 & '83, both tremedous performances (less so New Yrs '79, but that was on the team in front of him more than anything else.)

It's really a shame the Soviet authorities didn't let him come to Montreal to play, or let Dryden go to Moscow to play for that matter. Might have helped dispel some doubts in both instances.

 

[Albatros]

I'm not overly sold on Dryden though. If anything, unlike Tretiak, international competition exposed the glaring weakness of his game. It didn't hinder him much in the NHL, but the USSR's east/west style of game really exposed his underdeveloped side-to-side movement.

The sample size is ridiculously small, but his predecessor Vachon's style worked pretty well especially in that regard in 1976.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Other than not being Canadian or Russian, what makes you specifically unbiased on this subject?

I'm unbiased on pretty much all hockey matters.

Just the way I'm wired.

 

[Theokritos]

I also don't think he was particularly good in '72 once the games moved to Moscow. Henderson's GW goal in Game 6 was SOFT, and he and the rest of the Soviet defense really wilted in the 3rd period of Game 8, Henderson's series winner due to poor rebound control.

That's a legit reply to those who argue Tretyak was good in 1972, but if we're looking at the grand scheme of his career it has to be added that Tretyak was just 20 at the time of the Summit Series. At the same age Tony Esposito and Ken Dryden were still facing college forwards and were several years away from starting in the NHL. Even Soviet Best Player voting indicates that Tretyak was still one year away from entering his prime (which would still make it very early though!) at the time of the Summit Series:

1971: 5th (5.9% of the maximum points)
1972: 5th (9.4%)
1973: 4th (22.6 %)
1974: 1st (67.3%)
1975: 1st (54.9%)
1976: 1st (72.4%)
1977: 3rd (32.0%)
1978: 2nd (50.2%)
1979: European poll: 5th (10.9%)
1980: 8th (3.4%)
1981: 1st (71.2%)
1982: 3rd (28.8%)
1983: 1st (91.4%)
1984: 2nd (43.7%)

 

[Moose Head]

I'm not overly sold on Dryden though. If anything, unlike Tretiak, international competition exposed the glaring weakness of his game. It didn't hinder him much in the NHL, but the USSR's east/west style of game really exposed his underdeveloped side-to-side movement.

Pains me to say it since I was a big fan of Dryden, it’s probably the reason the Sabres drove him nuts.

 

[Overrated]

It makes no sense to put Kharlamov above Tretiak who had a short prime and even his peak seems to be somewhat overrated. Also note that Kharlamov's stats were already on the decline prior to his first car accident which at least statistically didn't change his scoring numbers at all whatsoever. I hear people keep saying that all Tretiak needed to do was to have one exceptional game out of the last three during the summit series yet ignore the fact he was just 20 and already made a massive impression on the Canadians.

 

[Overrated]

There has long been a tendency in Canadian hockey circles to blame the opposing goaltender whenever Canada loses, as if it's impossible that another nation could have had a better overall team. So there's that... and as the emotion of it fades, perhaps the rating of the opposing goaltender fades a little.

As for hfboards ranking vs the world - I don't think people in many other places realize that Jiri Holecek existed. Meaning that he beat out Tretiak more often than not for the World Championship All-Star nod in the late 1970s, and that many contemporary Europeans at the time preferred Holecek to Tretiak. Perhaps hfboards takes it to an extreme though - I've seen at least one poster say that goaltending is a major reason that CSSR basically had a 0.500 record vs a superior USSR team, though I haven't actually seen anything substantial to verify that opinion.

____

To make a very general statement - it is my impression that Tretiak impressed more in games against Canada than he did against the USSR's other rival Czechoslovakia. Not that he was bad against CSSR, just that they don't tend to view him in the same light as Canadians, from what information I have gathered.

Tretiak was also not good in the 1980 Miracle on Ice Olympics, right in between really being excellent against Canada/NHL All-Stars in 1979 and 1981.

So perhaps a big part of the disconnect involves what games one places a higher priority on.

Holecek and Dzurilla were exceptional goaltenders. Czech goaltending is very underrated. Holecek didn't do too well during the CC76 at least statistically speaking though he claimed in an interview Hull came up to him trying to convince him to emigrate.

Before winning the gold at WC72 Holik came to Holecek and said "Tonight it's all on you. If you don't let anything through we might score that one goal"

About CC76 games against Canada he said:

Dzurilla had one advantage compared to me especially against Canada which played simple hockey with a lot of shots on goal. He weighed about 15 kg (~35 lbs) more than I so he took up more space in the goal. I preferred the Russians who would play a "combination" style hockey trying to score into an empty net.