Speculation: What Would You Give Up for Taylor Hall?

[BuffaloKatanas]

Wonder if EDM would go for this:

Zadorov
NYI 1st
STL 1st
Neuvirth/Enroth
Hodgson?

They get everything they need. A top D prospect. A goalie, two futures, and if they want, a center that can play on the 2nd line for them.

Just get out, this is awful

 

[old kummelweck]

Anyone that thinks that Halls issues are anything but a maturity problem and that he won't grow out of them should be the next Oilers GM.

 

[RefsIdeas]

Just get out, this is awful

Solid rebuttal there.

 

[Mit Yarrum]

Have you guys discussed Hall's knee? Reading the Edmonton boards there are a lot of posters discussing the fact that they think he's far from 100% right now, and may be a long time off from getting back near 100%.

That scares me, even though I really like Hall's game.

I think Hall's knee is wrecked. I was watching him a bit more closely last night. He is pushing off with one leg whenever he can. And he can't break away from basically anyone right now. He actually looks slow.

My read from the interviews over the last two days was that Hall actually did like the coach, and Eberle and Ference didn't. I don't think Hall asked for a trade.

I remember reading/hearing a few things over the past couple of weeks. Thought they said Hall's knee won't be back to normal any time soon, as in months until it's completely stabil/healed/solid. I hope that's the only issue here and he just isn't waiting for his trade to come...

I said this right after the knee injury. He does not have the same explosion since the injury......is it a case of the same thing with the shoulder where he is going to play the season and have surgery in the summer? Did you notice prior to the game they were showing Hall stretching and he was wearing a knee brace....not just a soft brace but a framed hard brace....would not be as easy to skate with. I wonder why the media is not talking about Hall not playing completely healthy. They would surely know.

I'd like to think there must be some explanation but I dunno.

On one hand you have a player you say is playing injured on one leg. Does such a player go after Ryan Getzlaf 2 nights ago basically challenging him? I really don't think so. Hall seems just lost. No anticipation, no drive, effort. The most noticeable he's been in recent games is when he's got angry. That speaks to motivational trouble rather than injury being the main thing.

I don't doubt two knee injuries are going to impact but then why is he on the ice? Does it really get much better with both knees shot through injury?

This could be the new baseline if you are correct. That's an even more disturbing proposition.

Yeah, I noticed that as well. Saw the hard brace prior to the game, and noticed that the explosion is just not there as it was before. You dont play hockey with a big brace like that if youre not hurt. Hell, you dont do stretches with a big brace like that if youre not hurt

Anyway, they watch him more than I do, but I'm sure scouts around the league know what's up.

 

[Jim Bob]

Ennis for Hall!

 

[FearTheBeard]

Solid rebuttal there.

Your trade proposal was awful. 1 premium asset, 3 great ones, and one good (selling low on him) for Hall. Might as well give up Risto while were at it

 

[Paxon]

Your trade proposal was awful. 1 premium asset, 3 great ones, and one good (selling low on him) for Hall. Might as well give up Risto while were at it

STL 1st, NYI 1st, and Neuvirth/Enroth are not great assets

 

[RefsIdeas]

Your trade proposal was awful. 1 premium asset, 3 great ones, and one good (selling low on him) for Hall. Might as well give up Risto while were at it

You do realize to get a top player at the peak of his career will take quite a bit, right?

 

[Jame]

You do realize to get a top player at the peak of his career will take quite a bit, right?

Jeff Carter for 8th overall, 3 seasons of 40-50 pts Voracek, and a 3rd

 

[B U F F A L O]

Jeff Carter for 8th overall, 3 seasons of 40-50 pts Voracek, and a 3rd

Bobby Ryan for 10th overall, Silfverberg, Noesen

 

[SabresBillsBuffalo]

I'd give them

Hackett
Stl and Nyi 1st(i don't think who we'd pick with those would ever be as good as Hall)
Stewart or Stafford
Carrier
Bailey

TBH the trade would never happen and I dont think he will ever be traded.
If the price is too high I wouldn't even bother. Just keep your 3 picks

Maybe even 1 first will do hahah

 

[Zip15]

Jeff Carter for 8th overall, 3 seasons of 40-50 pts Voracek, and a 3rd

Taylor Hall doesn't come with an 11-year commitment taking him through his 37th birthday. I'd argue that's an advantage for Hall. Additionally, no matter how hard "sources" try to deflect attention from themselves (cough-Lowe-cough) by suggesting Hall is a problem, Hall's not a confirmed locker room problem like Carter (Dry Island!). [Nor does Hall have the label of "playoff choker." As we know, in the NHL, it's better to have missed the playoffs than made the playoffs and underachieved--right, Patrick Marleau?] But I'm willing to work within your framework.

As for Voracek, he was four years removed from being the 7th overall pick and had averaged 48 pts/season in his 20- and 21-year old seasons. People forget he was 21 when that trade was made, and he was their top pro asset not named Rick Nash--the Jackets were not trading RyJo one year removed from being the 4th overall pick.

So let's take our top amateur prospect (Reinhart) and top NHL roster player (Myers or Girgs, you decide) off the table. Now put a package together of a top, young NHL asset with upside, an equivalent of the 8th overall pick, and a 3rd, and I think you get:

Myers/Girgensons (young, top NHL roster player with upside and draft pedigree)
Zadorov (who I think has the value of a late top-10 pick) or BUF 2015 1st if it's around #10
BUF 2015 3rd pick

Yet every actual name in that proposal has already been deemed untouchable by 80% of the posters around here. Even under the Jeff Carter framework, Sabres fans would never make this deal; they love their young guys too much.

 

[Jame]

Taylor Hall doesn't come with an 11-year commitment taking him through his 37th birthday. I'd argue that's an advantage for Hall. Additionally, no matter how hard "sources" try to deflect attention from themselves (cough-Lowe-cough) by suggesting Hall is a problem, Hall's not a confirmed locker room problem like Carter (Dry Island!). [Nor does Hall have the label of "playoff choker." As we know, in the NHL, it's better to have missed the playoffs than made the playoffs and underachieved--right, Patrick Marleau?] But I'm willing to work within your framework.

As for Voracek, he was four years removed from being the 7th overall pick and had averaged 48 pts in his 20- and 21-year old seasons. People forget he was 21 when that trade was made, and he was their top pro asset not named Rick Nash--the Jackets were not trading RyJo one year removed from being the 4th overall pick.

So let's take our top amateur prospect (Reinhart) and top NHL roster player (Myers or Girgs, you decide) off the table. Now put a package together of a top, young NHL asset with upside, an equivalent of 8th overall pick, and a 3rd, and I think you get:

Myers/Girgensons (young, top NHL roster player with upside and draft pedigree)
Zadorov (who I think has the value of a late top-10 pick) or BUF 2015 1st if it's around #10
BUF 2015 3rd pick

Yet every actual name in that proposal has already been deemed untouchable by 80% of the posters around here. Even under the Jeff Carter framework, Sabres fans would never make this deal; they love their young guys too much.

Would you rather have Jeff Carter, or Couturier and Voracek?

Sabres fans are right to keep their top assets off the table

Buf 2015 1st in the 4-8 range >> 2011 8th overall
Hodgson 2014 + Stl 1st + Pysyk >/= Voracek 2011 + 3rd

 

[Paxon]

Taylor Hall doesn't come with an 11-year commitment taking him through his 37th birthday. I'd argue that's an advantage for Hall. Additionally, no matter how hard "sources" try to deflect attention from themselves (cough-Lowe-cough) by suggesting Hall is a problem, Hall's not a confirmed locker room problem like Carter (Dry Island!). [Nor does Hall have the label of "playoff choker." As we know, in the NHL, it's better to have missed the playoffs than made the playoffs and underachieved--right, Patrick Marleau?] But I'm willing to work within your framework.

As for Voracek, he was four years removed from being the 7th overall pick and had averaged 48 pts in his 20- and 21-year old seasons. People forget he was 21 when that trade was made, and he was their top pro asset not named Rick Nash--the Jackets were not trading RyJo one year removed from being the 4th overall pick.

At the time Carter's contract was considered a massive positive. The trade happened before the new CBA and thus the recapture rule. Carter's cap hit was and is great.

I agree with your criticism of the Voracek point. Describing what CBJ gave up as "three years of 40-50 point Voracek" is completely illogical. They gave up a young player who had in his first three years -- at ages 19, 20, and 21 -- produced in that range. Seeing as we have no idea how the Jackets and Flyers saw Voracek with respect to the present vs. the future, the only way we can describe the value he represented in the trade is by at least considering the value he's turned out to have. Anyhow, Voracek at the time was considered very highly by most.

 

[Irving Zisman]

Taylor Hall doesn't come with an 11-year commitment taking him through his 37th birthday. I'd argue that's an advantage for Hall. Additionally, no matter how hard "sources" try to deflect attention from themselves (cough-Lowe-cough) by suggesting Hall is a problem, Hall's not a confirmed locker room problem like Carter (Dry Island!). [Nor does Hall have the label of "playoff choker." As we know, in the NHL, it's better to have missed the playoffs than made the playoffs and underachieved--right, Patrick Marleau?] But I'm willing to work within your framework.

As for Voracek, he was four years removed from being the 7th overall pick and had averaged 48 pts/season in his 20- and 21-year old seasons. People forget he was 21 when that trade was made, and he was their top pro asset not named Rick Nash--the Jackets were not trading RyJo one year removed from being the 4th overall pick.

So let's take our top amateur prospect (Reinhart) and top NHL roster player (Myers or Girgs, you decide) off the table. Now put a package together of a top, young NHL asset with upside, an equivalent of the 8th overall pick, and a 3rd, and I think you get:

Myers/Girgensons (young, top NHL roster player with upside and draft pedigree)
Zadorov (who I think has the value of a late top-10 pick) or BUF 2015 1st if it's around #10
BUF 2015 3rd pick

Yet every actual name in that proposal has already been deemed untouchable by 80% of the posters around here. Even under the Jeff Carter framework, Sabres fans would never make this deal; they love their young guys too much.

Keep preaching the false narrative that Taylor Hall is unequivocally not an issue in the locker room or any kind of a selfish, me-first player.

Just because Edmonton is a tire fire of an organization doesn't automatically give Hall immunity from being a whiny ***** that detracts from overall team cohesion. Hell, even their captain publicly made comments about how piss-poor the attitude of some of the youngsters were, but you've clearly convinced yourself, based on your posts in this thread, that everyone's just out to get poor Taylor.

You do make a valid point about Dreger being unreliable from his somewhat BS Myers rumor. But, when Bobby Mac, widely accepted as the most credible and respected hockey insider in the business, corroborates such sentiments, it's pretty evident that you're ignoring highly legitimate information to fit your narrative.

As for your Hall proposal: Thank GAWD you're just some dude on a hockey forum posting advanced stats and arguing about future losses do to a lack of sustainability, and not anywhere near the front office of this team. It's been clearly demonstrated that top-pairing defenseman are way more valuable than flashy, scoring wingers, yet you want to ship Myers out for Hall.

 

[FearTheBeard]

You do realize to get a top player at the peak of his career will take quite a bit, right?

He's a one-dimensional winger who's paid to put up points and he's on the same ppg pace as Ennis. If the oilers are asking for a future top pairing D, 2 firsts in a deep draft, an above average goalie, and a center who has no where to go but up then you're getting absolutely fleeced

 

[Jame]

At the time Carter's contract was considered a massive positive. The trade happened before the new CBA and thus the recapture rule. Carter's cap hit was and is great.

I agree with your criticism of the Voracek point. Describing what CBJ gave up as "three years of 40-50 point Voracek" is completely illogical. They gave up a young player who had in his first three years -- at ages 19, 20, and 21 -- produced in that range. Seeing as we have no idea how the Jackets and Flyers saw Voracek with respect to the present vs. the future, the only way we can describe the value he represented in the trade is by at least considering the value he's turned out to have. Anyhow, Voracek at the time was considered very highly by most.

Voracek at the time was considered "plateauing"

Jagr's impact on Voracek while they were together in Philly is impossible to quantify, but impossible to ignore.

 

[Zip15]

Would you rather have Jeff Carter, or Couturier and Voracek?

Sabres fans are right to keep their top assets off the table

Buf 2015 1st in the 4-8 range >> 2011 8th overall
Hodgson 2014 + Stl 1st + Pysyk >/= Voracek 2011 + 3rd

Kings Jeff Carter or Whiny Blue Jackets Jeff Carter? We now look at Carter through the lens of being one of the top players on a two-time Cup winner. But he had to force his way out of Cbus to get that.

Re: the 2011 8th overall, I said if we finished around the 10th overall spot this year that would be about what the 2011 8th overall was. I know we've overhyped this draft into the ground, but let's not forget that 2011 had guys like Huberdeau, Strome, Larsson, and Dougie Hamilton--those were all HUGE prospects at the time.

In addition, I'd say Zadorov is what I would deem an equivalent value to a normal 8th overall pick.

At the time Carter's contract was considered a massive positive. The trade happened before the new CBA and thus the recapture rule. Carter's cap hit was and is great.

I agree with your criticism of the Voracek point. Describing what CBJ gave up as "three years of 40-50 point Voracek" is completely illogical. They gave up a young player who had in his first three years -- at ages 19, 20, and 21 -- produced in that range. Seeing as we have no idea how the Jackets and Flyers saw Voracek with respect to the present vs. the future, the only way we can describe the value he represented in the trade is by at least considering the value he's turned out to have. Anyhow, Voracek at the time was considered very highly by most.

Correct. Voracek was the 2nd leading scorer from his draft year at the time he was traded. He still is, in fact, behind only Patty Kane (and he's 3rd if you go by PPG, behind Kane and Couture). Can you imagine if Armia had scored 96 pts between last season and this year? Around these parts that would make him untouchable, because he'd obviously be "well on his way to being a 70-point 1st line forward, just like Hall." Or do you recall terror that gripped these boards for that two-hour period on the draft night where we acquired Regehr when the false story leaked that the Sabres had traded Ennis to Calgary in the Regehr deal? I do. That was because the fanbase saw a young forward who just scored 49 pts in a season that they thought could grow into a top player. Voracek was a huge asset when he got traded. They essentially traded two top-10 picks to get Carter.

 

[FearTheBeard]

Taylor Hall doesn't come with an 11-year commitment taking him through his 37th birthday. I'd argue that's an advantage for Hall. Additionally, no matter how hard "sources" try to deflect attention from themselves (cough-Lowe-cough) by suggesting Hall is a problem, Hall's not a confirmed locker room problem like Carter (Dry Island!). [Nor does Hall have the label of "playoff choker." As we know, in the NHL, it's better to have missed the playoffs than made the playoffs and underachieved--right, Patrick Marleau?] But I'm willing to work within your framework.

As for Voracek, he was four years removed from being the 7th overall pick and had averaged 48 pts/season in his 20- and 21-year old seasons. People forget he was 21 when that trade was made, and he was their top pro asset not named Rick Nash--the Jackets were not trading RyJo one year removed from being the 4th overall pick.

So let's take our top amateur prospect (Reinhart) and top NHL roster player (Myers or Girgs, you decide) off the table. Now put a package together of a top, young NHL asset with upside, an equivalent of the 8th overall pick, and a 3rd, and I think you get:

Myers/Girgensons (young, top NHL roster player with upside and draft pedigree)
Zadorov (who I think has the value of a late top-10 pick) or BUF 2015 1st if it's around #10
BUF 2015 3rd pick

Yet every actual name in that proposal has already been deemed untouchable by 80% of the posters around here. Even under the Jeff Carter framework, Sabres fans would never make this deal; they love their young guys too much.

We have every right to be. Myers and Zads can be a shutdown top pairing in this league. Thats way more valuable alone than a scoring winger.
As for Zemgod I take him straight up everyday over Hall, let alone adding to him.

 

[FearTheBeard]

Kings Jeff Carter or Whiny Blue Jackets Jeff Carter? We now look at Carter through the lens of being one of the top players on a two-time Cup winner. But he had to force his way out of Cbus to get that.

Re: the 2011 8th overall, I said if we finished around the 10th overall spot this year that would be about what the 2011 8th overall was. I know we've overhyped this draft into the ground, but let's not forget that 2011 had guys like Huberdeau, Strome, Larsson, and Dougie Hamilton--those were all HUGE prospects at the time.

In addition, I'd say Zadorov is what I would deem an equivalent value to a normal 8th overall pick.



Correct. Voracek was the 2nd leading scorer from his draft year at the time he was traded. He still is, in fact, behind only Patty Kane (and he's 3rd if you go by PPG, behind Kane and Couture). Can you imagine if Armia had scored 96 pts between last season and this year? Around these parts that would make him untouchable, because he'd obviously be "well on his way to being a 70-point 1st line forward, just like Hall." Or do you recall terror that gripped these boards for that two-hour period on the draft night where we acquired Regehr when the false story leaked that the Sabres had traded Ennis to Calgary in the Regehr deal? I do. That was because the fanbase saw a young forward who just scored 49 pts in a season that they thought could grow into a top player. Voracek was a huge asset when he got traded. They essentially traded two top-10 picks to get Carter.

As soon as you start performing in this league and showing you belong, your value rises. Zadorov has higher value than a draft pick who's never proven a thing

 

[joshjull]

Taylor Hall doesn't come with an 11-year commitment taking him through his 37th birthday. I'd argue that's an advantage for Hall. Additionally, no matter how hard "sources" try to deflect attention from themselves (cough-Lowe-cough) by suggesting Hall is a problem, Hall's not a confirmed locker room problem like Carter (Dry Island!). [Nor does Hall have the label of "playoff choker." As we know, in the NHL, it's better to have missed the playoffs than made the playoffs and underachieved--right, Patrick Marleau?] But I'm willing to work within your framework.

As for Voracek, he was four years removed from being the 7th overall pick and had averaged 48 pts/season in his 20- and 21-year old seasons. People forget he was 21 when that trade was made, and he was their top pro asset not named Rick Nash--the Jackets were not trading RyJo one year removed from being the 4th overall pick.

So let's take our top amateur prospect (Reinhart) and top NHL roster player (Myers or Girgs, you decide) off the table. Now put a package together of a top, young NHL asset with upside, an equivalent of the 8th overall pick, and a 3rd, and I think you get:

Myers/Girgensons (young, top NHL roster player with upside and draft pedigree)
Zadorov (who I think has the value of a late top-10 pick) or BUF 2015 1st if it's around #10
BUF 2015 3rd pick

Yet every actual name in that proposal has already been deemed untouchable by 80% of the posters around here. Even under the Jeff Carter framework, Sabres fans would never make this deal; they love their young guys too much.

Get off your high horse. Some of us actually want to build a team. Without getting into Hall's issues real or imagined. Building around a high end scoring winger is not the way to go and many feel this way. It colors their take on any trade proposals. Yes some have strong opinions about his alleged locker room issues. But many just don't want to sell the store (top dmen) for him, issues or not.

As for Hall's issues. I have no idea if they are real or not. And if they are real, if they are just overblown. Nor do you. So save us the sanctimonious dismissal of concerns some have. As if you would even know if they were real or not.

But at the end of the day many of the posters that don't want to trade for him base it on what they believe is important from a team building pov. So they have no interest in moving top 4 d-prospects with higher potential for him. You disagree I assume and thats fine.

 

[Zip15]

Keep preaching the false narrative that Taylor Hall is unequivocally not an issue in the locker room or any kind of a selfish, me-first player.

Show me substantiated proof that he is a cancer. Your "evidence" is far more specious than me questioning unsubstantiated hearsay.

Just because Edmonton is a tire fire of an organization doesn't automatically give Hall immunity from being a whiny ***** that detracts from overall team cohesion. Hell, even their captain publicly made comments about how piss-poor the attitude of some of the youngsters were,

Good thing there aren't other youngsters in that room to whom Ference could be referring. You're reaching.

By the way, how do you reconcile Eakins unequivocal defense of Hall, specifically? I'm sure you have no defense beyond "what do you think he's going to say?"

but you've clearly convinced yourself, based on your posts in this thread, that everyone's just out to get poor Taylor.

You're saying I'm the one who's trying to convince myself of something. Stop projecting your propensity to draw conclusions from thin, unsubstantiated evidence on me.

You do make a valid point about Dreger being unreliable from his somewhat BS Myers rumor. But, when Bobby Mac, widely accepted as the most credible and respected hockey insider in the business, corroborates such sentiments, it's pretty evident that you're ignoring highly legitimate information to fit your narrative.

McKenzie didn't corroborate that Hall was a problem; he said he was hearing the same things as Dreger that Hall may be available

As for your Hall proposal: Thank GAWD you're just some dude on a hockey forum posting advanced stats and arguing about future losses do to a lack of sustainability, and not anywhere near the front office of this team. It's been clearly demonstrated that top-pairing defenseman are way more valuable than flashy, scoring wingers, yet you want to ship Myers out for Hall.

It's too bad you have no reading comprehension. Where did I say that I would do it? I just said that was a comparable package to the Voracek/8th overall. Of course you don't think that, because you overvalue our young players and think they'll hall hit the ceilings. A true HF caricature.

He's a one-dimensional winger who's paid to put up points and he's on the same ppg pace as Ennis. If the oilers are asking for a future top pairing D, 2 firsts in a deep draft, an above average goalie, and a center who has no where to go but up then you're getting absolutely fleeced

Show me their paces over the last 2 1/2 seasons. Are you suggesting Hall and Ennis are of the same ilk?

Voracek at the time was considered "plateauing"

Jagr's impact on Voracek while they were together in Philly is impossible to quantify, but impossible to ignore.

Even assuming that was the prevailing sentiment, I would attribute some of that to be caused by the fact that he was in a terribly run organization at the time where the worst is always assumed and young players should be moved if they're not superstars by their 23rd birthdays.

If only I could think of another organization like that, perhaps one in Alberta...

 

[Jame]

Even assuming that was the prevailing sentiment, I would attribute some of that to be caused by the fact that he was in a terribly run organization at the time where the worst is always assumed and young players should be moved if they're not superstars by their 23rd birthdays.

If only I could think of another organization like that, perhaps one in Alberta...

all the more reason not to move Myers

 

[Zip15]

We have every right to be. Myers and Zads can be a shutdown top pairing in this league. Thats way more valuable alone than a scoring winger.
As for Zemgod I take him straight up everyday over Hall, let alone adding to him.

As soon as you start performing in this league and showing you belong, your value rises. Zadorov has higher value than a draft pick who's never proven a thing

Yet Taylor Hall, who is the most proven of any of these players, is a dog's breakfast compared to our rising stars.

You're overrating our young players. No point in arguing further. We'll agree to disagree.

 

[RefsIdeas]

He's a one-dimensional winger who's paid to put up points and he's on the same ppg pace as Ennis. If the oilers are asking for a future top pairing D, 2 firsts in a deep draft, an above average goalie, and a center who has no where to go but up then you're getting absolutely fleeced

- he's not one dimensional
- all players are paid to put up points
- he put up 80 last year on a bad Edmonton team and he's two years younger then ennis
- we have no idea if Zadorov is going to be a top 2 D. He's a very good prospect.
- Two late firsts. The term "deep" draft gets thrown out a lot. Plus, we're stockpiled on prospects as is.
- Sure, Hodgson will go up. To what? A top six center/winger? Do you see the skating ability/defensive ability in him for that? I certainly don't.