Speculation: What Would You Give Up for Taylor Hall?

[Zip15]

As I stated above, I generally agree that top-4 defense and top centers are more valuable than good or even very good wingers. But there cannot be a rigid, mechanical application of that principle that doesn't allow for any flexibility. Four years ago, would you have not traded Tyler Myers for Patrick Kane because Kane's just a top line, "one-way" winger and Myers looked to have a promising future as a top-pairing defenseman? Nobody will admit to that now, but strict adherence to this philosophy suggests you wouldn't have done that deal.

Coming into this season, Taylor Hall had almost identical numbers to Kane at similar junctures of their career:

Hall - 225 pts in 246 games (.915 ppg)
Kane - 230 pts in 244 games (.943 ppg)

This isn't Tyler Ennis for Ryan O'Reilly (when he was playing center). Taylor Hall is an elite player in this league. His career body of work, to date, is excellent.

 

[punkr0x]

Are we going to ignore how Girgensons' presence on the 1st line immediately turned he, Ennis, and Moulson into a unit that can actually compete and win games as the top line against other team's top lines. Now, obviously they aren't a playoff top line, but that doesn't change the fact that they're in that role going up against the tough competition. Defense is logically as important as offense, by the way. Any importance attached to scoring necessarily creates an equal importance on stopping scoring. For the sake of argument, let's say there is a player who scores 50 points and plays Selke-level defense every year. Saying that's not comparable to a one-way PPG player seems like B.S. to me.

Anyhow, I'm guessing all of the players mentioned would additional assets to land Hall, so if someone says they aren't trading a player for Hall that reads to me the same as saying "I'm not trading this player and a bunch of other value for Hall".

I love the people comparing Zemgus to Patrice Bergeron. Sure, a Selke level player who also scores 50+ points consistently is comparable to a PPG player. However, Zemgus is a young player who is having an incredible run, and nothing in his history suggests he is going to keep playing at this level. Taylor Hall is 3 years further along in his career and a proven PPG guy. On a team desperate for elite scoring, I think a proven scorer is worth a lot more than a potential defensive beast. But hey, people love to inflate potential.

 

[Jame]

As I stated above, I generally agree that top-4 defense and top centers are more valuable than good or even very good wingers. But there cannot be a rigid, mechanical application of that principle that doesn't allow for any flexibility. Four years ago, would you have not traded Tyler Myers for Patrick Kane because Kane's just a top line, "one-way" winger and Myers looked to have a promising future as a top-pairing defenseman? Nobody will admit to that now, but strict adherence to this philosophy suggests you wouldn't have done that deal.

Coming into this season, Taylor Hall had almost identical numbers to Kane at similar junctures of their career:

Hall - 225 pts in 246 games (.915 ppg)
Kane - 230 pts in 244 games (.943 ppg)

This isn't Tyler Ennis for Ryan O'Reilly (when he was playing center). Taylor Hall is an elite player in this league. His career body of work, to date, is excellent.

a couple of seasons ago, when we were in win now mode? sure
today, when we are in full rebuild? nope

we are building something. until we have the core pieces in place... I'm not trading any of the highest value pieces that fit those core needs for any winger.

to be clear, TODAY, I'm not trading any of the 5 most likely to be fill those core roles... for any winger on earth.

You can win without Hall, Kessel, Kane, etc
You CAN'T win without a deep blueline and a center structure.

When I have the established pillars in place, then I'm all for getting in a bidding war with our deep prospect pool and young NHL talent for a top line scorer.

 

[Paxon]

I love the people comparing Zemgus to Patrice Bergeron. Sure, a Selke level player who also scores 50+ points consistently is comparable to a PPG player. However, Zemgus is a young player who is having an incredible run, and nothing in his history suggests he is going to keep playing at this level. Taylor Hall is 3 years further along in his career and a proven PPG guy. On a team desperate for elite scoring, I think a proven scorer is worth a lot more than a potential defensive beast. But hey, people love to inflate potential.

I didn't compare Zemgus to Bergeron nor did I say he will be a 50+ point Selke-level player.

 

[punkr0x]

I didn't compare Zemgus to Bergeron nor did I say he will be a 50+ point Selke-level player.

La Costa Nostra said people who wouldn't trade Girgensons for Hall are being ridiculous, and then you said an imaginary 50-point Selke candidate is equivalent to a PPG player. To be fair it wasn't you who brought up Bergeron.

 

[Paxon]

La Costa Nostra said people who wouldn't trade Girgensons for Hall are being ridiculous, and then you said an imaginary 50-point Selke candidate is equivalent to a PPG player. To be fair it wasn't you who brought up Bergeron.

He said a 50 point two-way player isn't worth a PPG player so I gave him a hypothetical illustrating otherwise.

 

[Irving Zisman]

As I stated above, I generally agree that top-4 defense and top centers are more valuable than good or even very good wingers. But there cannot be a rigid, mechanical application of that principle that doesn't allow for any flexibility. Four years ago, would you have not traded Tyler Myers for Patrick Kane because Kane's just a top line, "one-way" winger and Myers looked to have a promising future as a top-pairing defenseman? Nobody will admit to that now, but strict adherence to this philosophy suggests you wouldn't have done that deal.

Coming into this season, Taylor Hall had almost identical numbers to Kane at similar junctures of their career:

Hall - 225 pts in 246 games (.915 ppg)
Kane - 230 pts in 244 games (.943 ppg)

This isn't Tyler Ennis for Ryan O'Reilly (when he was playing center). Taylor Hall is an elite player in this league. His career body of work, to date, is excellent.

I assume you're referring to Myers' Calder year?

If so, I honestly would still have had to think long and hard at that deal. Not trying to be a dick, just an honest answer.

And I'll admit, it's because I would have been adhering to the strict philosophy you mentioned, even if Kane "on paper" was a better player/had higher perceived value than Myers.

EDIT: Is the profanity filter off or something? Or is another name for "Richard" allowable

 

[La Cosa Nostra]

Would you trade Bergeron for Hall? I sure as hell wouldn't, but I want to know what you think.

Right now? Yeah I would seeing as Bergeron is 6 and 1/2 years older and exiting out of his prime while Hall is about to enter his. It's close but on a team like the Sabres who are a few years away from competing I'm taking the just turned 23 year old 75-80 point winger over the turning 30 at the end of this year shutdown center. And Bergeron is a bad analogy to a 40-50 point second liner seeing as Bergeron is A. one of the best defensive forwards in the league and B. Not a 40-50 point player. Bergeron averages 61 points per 82 games played and has 2 60 point and 2 70 point seasons under his belt. Zemgus neither has the defensive acumen Bergeron possesses nor will he ever put up 60+ points perennially either. Not to mention Bergeron isn't a "2nd liner", if you are a top 5 defensive player and score more then 60 points a season I believe that makes you a top line player at both ends. Zemgus isn't comparable to Bergeron at all. Different skill sets, size etc.

Simply put, Zemgus Girgensons is NOT worth Taylor Hall. Not now, not next year not ever. Zemgus will be a 40-50 point guy. He doesn't possess the offensive tools to score 60-70 points a season at all.

Taylor Hall would make this team closer to a cup contender far more then Girgensons will quite simple.

 

[joshjull]

a couple of seasons ago, when we were in win now mode? sure
today, when we are in full rebuild? nope

we are building something. until we have the core pieces in place... I'm not trading any of the highest value pieces that fit those core needs for any winger.

to be clear, TODAY, I'm not trading any of the 5 most likely to be fill those core roles... for any winger on earth.

You can win without Hall, Kessel, Kane, etc
You CAN'T win without a deep blueline and a center structure.

When I have the established pillars in place, then I'm all for getting in a bidding war with our deep prospect pool and young NHL talent for a top line scorer.

This is where I am as well.

 

[Zman5778]

a couple of seasons ago, when we were in win now mode? sure
today, when we are in full rebuild? nope

we are building something. until we have the core pieces in place... I'm not trading any of the highest value pieces that fit those core needs for any winger.

to be clear, TODAY, I'm not trading any of the 5 most likely to be fill those core roles... for any winger on earth.

You can win without Hall, Kessel, Kane, etc
You CAN'T win without a deep blueline and a center structure.

When I have the established pillars in place, then I'm all for getting in a bidding war with our deep prospect pool and young NHL talent for a top line scorer.

Perfectly put. A high-scoring elite-level winger should be the last piece we look at seriously to put the finishing touches on this rebuild.

By then, we'll know what our core really is and what we really do have in excess to spare.