What would it take for a player of today to challenge for a spot in the big 4?

[daver]

More talented is not the same as better player. I said saying Mario is more talented than Gretzky is very defensible - doesnt make him the better player tho.

Surprised you're actually responding in this way tbh.

Not in any statistical sense, which for me is the starting point in any comparison.

As for me responding in a certain way. I think I am pretty consistent with my responses. IMO, we have a clear idea of what each player was able to accomplish with their respective talents despite the spin that Wayne produced in an easier era, which is based on the completely unreliable league GPG argument.

 

[daver]

I know you're very passionate about this topic but isnt it inherently dishonnest to ignore Lemieuxs back issues in 90 and 91 and so on?

Yes Lemieuxs numbers were a big letdown vs 89 but wasnt his back in really bad shape by then? Without that hed have been scoring at a much higher clip i expect

On the topic of inherently dishonest, insistence with zero room for any context that Wayne was at his peak in 88/89 therefore that season, and that season alone, is the barometer in which to compare peak Wayne and peak Mario, should be in the HF HOF of inherently dishonest.

 

[bobholly39]

Not in any statistical sense, which for me is the starting point in any comparison.

As for me responding in a certain way. I think I am pretty consistent with my responses. IMO, we have a clear idea of what each player was able to accomplish with their respective talents despite the spin that Wayne produced in an easier era, which is based on the completely unreliable league GPG argument.

Its like you're not understanding terminology.

Talent isnt about stats.

Lemieux had more raw talent than Gretzky even though Gretzky ended up the better player. You can say that about a ton of players in history.

Forsberg = more talent
Sakic = better player

On the topic of inherently dishonest, insistence with zero room for any context that Wayne was at his peak in 88/89 therefore that season, and that season alone, is the barometer in which to compare peak Wayne and peak Mario, should be in the HF HOF of inherently dishonest.

88-89 isnt peak Gretzky and i never said it was and even have argued against it repeatedly. This is at least the 2nd time recently i see you respond to me with "well what i say is stupid but what he said was even stupider!"

I dont get that argument. If you just bring up and argue falsehoods whats the point. Just seems like a waste of time

 

[Canadiens1958]

Lemieux = talent and size/strength.

Gretzky = talent and work/guile.

 

[Michael Farkas]

More specifically, I think we're talking technical and, in Lemieux's case, physical skills...

I think Gretzky was the better player and had a better career...that said, if I was asked to put one player down on the ice in a 1 on 1 scenario to save the planet, unless I'm done with life (and the lives of all others), my choice is Mario Lemieux.

 

[MXD]

More specifically, I think we're talking technical and, in Lemieux's case, physical skills...

I think Gretzky was the better player and had a better career...that said, if I was asked to put one player down on the ice in a 1 on 1 scenario to save the planet, unless I'm done with life (and the lives of all others), my choice is Mario Lemieux.

To be fair, if it comes to that, there are a few non Big-4 whom I'd probably pick ahead of Gretzky.

 

[bobholly39]

Technically - with Gretzkys ability to shine under pressure im not sure i dont pick him to save the world....

 

[Canadiens1958]

To be fair, if it comes to that, there are a few non Big-4 whom I'd probably pick ahead of Gretzky.

True for Lemieux as well. Not so for Orr and Howe.

 

[authentic]

Not in any statistical sense, which for me is the starting point in any comparison.

As for me responding in a certain way. I think I am pretty consistent with my responses. IMO, we have a clear idea of what each player was able to accomplish with their respective talents despite the spin that Wayne produced in an easier era, which is based on the completely unreliable league GPG argument.

It is not a debate that the NHL was worse and easier to dominate in the 80s than the 90s, it's an obvious fact. The skill level and talent was less in the 80s than in the 90s and the goaltending, defensive play, and pace of the game were much worse, especially in the first half of the decade. Nothing you try to say here will change that I'm sorry. Watching the games makes this extremely obvious.

 

[authentic]

Technically - with Gretzkys ability to shine under pressure im not sure i dont pick him to save the world....

Not in a 1 vs 1 or 1 vs however many you wouldn't. I don't believe Lemieux was just a better 1 vs 1 player anyway, he was just better, and quite clearly IMO.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Not in a 1 vs 1 or 1 vs however many you wouldn't. I don't believe Lemieux was just a better 1 vs 1 player anyway, he was just better, and quite clearly IMO.

This isn't a remotely "clear" opinion

 

[GlitchMarner]

It is not a debate that the NHL was worse and easier to dominate in the 80s than the 90s, it's an obvious fact. The skill level and talent was less in the 80s than in the 90s and the goaltending, defensive play, and pace of the game were much worse, especially in the first half of the decade. Nothing you try to say here will change that I'm sorry. Watching the games makes this extremely obvious.

Refer to the post I made earlier. Why were defensemen like Stevens, Chelios and MacInnis still relevant in the 2000s if the NHL continually improved throughout the 90s? Did they get better as they aged?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Is this one of those things where you're taking all-time great exceptions to rules and trying to apply them to the league as a whole? How many hundreds and hundreds of defensemen played during the span of those players' careers...?

 

[GlitchMarner]

Is this one of those things where you're taking all-time great exceptions to rules and trying to apply them to the league as a whole? How many hundreds and hundreds of defensemen played during the span of those players' careers...?

There weren't hundreds and hundreds of defensemen whose careers spanned those of MacInnis, Chelios and Stevens that were of a high stature.

I do think the high-end talent pool was bigger in the 1990s than in the 1980s because of the European influx, and it's quite obvious goaltending was better in the 1990s, but the idea that the NHL suddenly became much better in terms of quality of play after the Gretzky era is overblown. It's not like there was a war that many of the best Canadians players were fighting in during the 1980s. The League had a vast pool of Canadian talent to draw from and there were already Americans and Europeans in the NHL.

The style of play changed in the 1990s, but that doesn't necessarily mean defensemen suddenly became much better. Some of the best defensemen of the 1990s were accomplished in the 1980s. Goaltenders were supported better and their equipment became larger, but while goaltending and defensive improved, creativity declined.

Fringe forwards have become better over time and there is less of a gap between the elite and non-elite than there used to be, but there are numerous examples of high-end players who played in the 1980s continuing to play at a high level into the 1990s and/or beyond (including Gretzky himself).

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Watching the games makes this extremely obvious.

I think you mean to say "oversimplified".

 

[blogofmike]

Not in a 1 vs 1 or 1 vs however many you wouldn't. I don't believe Lemieux was just a better 1 vs 1 player anyway, he was just better, and quite clearly IMO.

In actual 60 minute, 5 on 5 games of NHL hockey Gretzky had more impressive seasons and a better head-to-head record. More goals, assists, points. More assists than Lemieux has points.

		Lemieux				Gretzky
Date	Result	G	A	PTS	+/-	G	A	PTS	+/-
06-Nov-84	Oilers 3 @ Pens 3		1	1	1	1		1	-1
12-Jan-85	Oilers 3 @ Pens 4	2		2	Even		3	3	Even
26-Jan-85	Pens 3 @ Oilers 6	1		1	-1	3	1	4	2
22-Jan-86	Pens 7 @ Oilers 4		4	4	Even	1	1	2	-2
07-Mar-86	Pens 3 @ Oilers 5		1	1	-1		2	2	2
26-Mar-86	Oilers 8 @ Pens 3		1	1	-2	1	3	4	3
05-Dec-86	Oilers 4 @ Pens 2			0	-2		3	3	2
24-Jan-87	Pens 2 @ Oilers 4		1	1	Even	1	3	4	3
24-Feb-87	Oilers 2 @ Pens 5			0	Even		1	1	-2
20-Nov-87	Pens 1 @ Oilers 4		1	1	-2		2	2	1
19-Feb-88	Pens 3 @ Oilers 7		1	1	Even			0	Even
12-Nov-88	Pens 2 @ Kings 7	1	1	2	-3		1	1	Even
07-Mar-89	Pens 2 @ Kings 3 (OT)	1	1	2	2		2	2	Even
31-Oct-89	Kings 8 @ Pens 4		2	2	-3	3	3	6	4
10-Feb-90	Kings 6 @ Pens 7		1	1	-1		1	1	Even
26-Feb-91	Pens 2 @ Kings 8		1	1	-3		3	3	1
07-Mar-91	Kings 2 @ Pens 3		2	2	2	1	1	2	1
07-Mar-92	Pens 3 @ Kings 5		1	1	-2	1	2	3	3
11-Mar-93	Kings 3 @ Pens 4	1	3	4	2	1	1	2	Even
06-Nov-93	Pens 3 @ Kings 8		2	2	-2		4	4	3
26-Mar-96	Blues 4 @ Pens 8	5	2	7	3		1	1	-2
16-Oct-96	Pens 1 @ NYR 8			0	-2		2	2	2
16-Nov-96	NYR 8 @ Pens 3		1	1	-1	1	1	2	Even
25-Jan-97	NYR 7 @ Pens 4			0	-2		3	3	1
24-Mar-97	Pens 0 @ NYR 3			0	-1	1	1	2	2
	Total (25 games)	11	27	38	-18	15	41	56	23
	Oilers-era (11 games)	3	10	13	-7	7	15	22	8
	Post-Oilers (14 games)	8	17	25	-11	8	26	34	15

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux had a 12 point lead on Gretzky in 89-90 before his back was too much too handle. He was better by 1989. While Gretzky was only 27. That’s a fact. Hell even in 87/88. Lemieux scores 168 points in 77 games which is 172 points in 80 while Gretzky paced for 186 on the friggen hof oilers. Lemieux had Coffey for only half a season in 87-88. The pens cast was horrible and a 26-27 year old Gretzky is only pacing for 14 more points? As the league got better and goalies actually learned how to stay in the damn net Gretzkys numbers were not the same while still only 26. Lemieux was scoring at a damn 190 point pace in 1996 when the league was MILES better than the early 80’s

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

A peak Lemieux on the 1986 oilers with health easily would beat 215 points I have no doubt

 

[Nick Hansen]

My firm belief is that Lemieux - individually - is the most talented hockey player we've ever seen. The size, the skill and the vision was a combination we've never seen either before or after.

The results don't measure up, though.

 

[blogofmike]

A peak Lemieux on the 1986 oilers with health easily would beat 215 points I have no doubt

Gretzky was a great ES scorer. He posted the last 100 ESP season in 91 without the Oilers. It was his 10th 100 ESP year in 12 He had 90+ in 2 injury shortened years.

Could Mario thrive with the least PPO in the league instead of the most?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Gretzky was a great ES scorer. He posted the last 100 ESP season in 91 without the Oilers. It was his 10th 100 ESP year in 12 He had 90+ in 2 injury shortened years.

Could Mario thrive with the least PPO in the league instead of the most?

I think he would be just fine in the oilers. Throw in 4 on 4 play damn....

 

[authentic]

Do you have any objective proof that the quality of play in the NHL improved drastically after the 1980s?

Bourque, MacInnis, Stevens and Chelios were notable defensemen in the 1980s and they were among the best at the position in the 1990s.

Furthermore, Stevens won the Conn Smythe in 2000, Chelios finished second in Norris voting in 2002 and MacInnis finished second in Norris voting in 2003.

You just named 4 individual defensemen. I never said there were not any good defensemen in the 80s, I meant as a whole, on average. It's a well established and consensus opinion even among people on this board that defense and goaltending got much better from 1980-late 90s, it's just whether you believe this would affect Gretzky much or not. I personally believe it would affect Gretzky more than Lemieux for reasons I've already stated. I've also already made it clear earlier that I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here because I've been on these boards long enough to see how that goes.

 

[authentic]

My firm belief is that Lemieux - individually - is the most talented hockey player we've ever seen. The size, the skill and the vision was a combination we've never seen either before or after.

The results don't measure up, though.

Because of health and era. Factors largely out of Lemieux's control. I think the idea is that, being the more talented player, even if only slightly, with the same circumstances and health could've and IMO (and the opinons of many others) would've been even better.

 

[authentic]

Lemieux had a 12 point lead on Gretzky in 89-90 before his back was too much too handle. He was better by 1989. While Gretzky was only 27. That’s a fact. Hell even in 87/88. Lemieux scores 168 points in 77 games which is 172 points in 80 while Gretzky paced for 186 on the friggen hof oilers. Lemieux had Coffey for only half a season in 87-88. The pens cast was horrible and a 26-27 year old Gretzky is only pacing for 14 more points? As the league got better and goalies actually learned how to stay in the damn net Gretzkys numbers were not the same while still only 26. Lemieux was scoring at a damn 190 point pace in 1996 when the league was MILES better than the early 80’s

Honestly I don't know of a single person in real life who believes Gretzky would score more against modern defenses and goaltending than Lemieux would, because he wouldn't. It's a fantasy that seems easy to project on paper but doesn't hold up in reality.

 

[JackSlater]

Honestly I don't know of a single person in real life who believes Gretzky would score more against modern defenses and goaltending than Lemieux would, because he wouldn't. It's a fantasy that seems easy to project on paper but doesn't hold up in reality.

When did you test this belief in reality and see that it doesn't hold up?