What would it take for a player of today to challenge for a spot in the big 4?

[Canadiens1958]

lol Ovechkin's team's finished first in the eight team Metro four seasons in a row and you were calling him a "luxurious compiler" or whatever not too long ago.

Discussing Gretzky not Ovechkin.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I agree. I merely did the math (above) to show that the supposed claim of Howe's team finishes being superior to Gretzky's was a mathematically wonky supposition. But the goal-posts have now been moved to 'divisions' instead of overall, so I give up...

Reread the second paragraph.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/148955839/

Clear that division(4) or conference(2), were also allowed.

Goal posts were not moved.

 

[bobholly39]

I wasn't making a statement about one on one ability...

You're right sorry - I responded to your reply from the initial poster that did make that correlation.

In actual 60 minute, 5 on 5 games of NHL hockey Gretzky had more impressive seasons and a better head-to-head record. More goals, assists, points. More assists than Lemieux has points.

		Lemieux				Gretzky
Date	Result	G	A	PTS	+/-	G	A	PTS	+/-
06-Nov-84	Oilers 3 @ Pens 3		1	1	1	1		1	-1
12-Jan-85	Oilers 3 @ Pens 4	2		2	Even		3	3	Even
26-Jan-85	Pens 3 @ Oilers 6	1		1	-1	3	1	4	2
22-Jan-86	Pens 7 @ Oilers 4		4	4	Even	1	1	2	-2
07-Mar-86	Pens 3 @ Oilers 5		1	1	-1		2	2	2
26-Mar-86	Oilers 8 @ Pens 3		1	1	-2	1	3	4	3
05-Dec-86	Oilers 4 @ Pens 2			0	-2		3	3	2
24-Jan-87	Pens 2 @ Oilers 4		1	1	Even	1	3	4	3
24-Feb-87	Oilers 2 @ Pens 5			0	Even		1	1	-2
20-Nov-87	Pens 1 @ Oilers 4		1	1	-2		2	2	1
19-Feb-88	Pens 3 @ Oilers 7		1	1	Even			0	Even
12-Nov-88	Pens 2 @ Kings 7	1	1	2	-3		1	1	Even
07-Mar-89	Pens 2 @ Kings 3 (OT)	1	1	2	2		2	2	Even
31-Oct-89	Kings 8 @ Pens 4		2	2	-3	3	3	6	4
10-Feb-90	Kings 6 @ Pens 7		1	1	-1		1	1	Even
26-Feb-91	Pens 2 @ Kings 8		1	1	-3		3	3	1
07-Mar-91	Kings 2 @ Pens 3		2	2	2	1	1	2	1
07-Mar-92	Pens 3 @ Kings 5		1	1	-2	1	2	3	3
11-Mar-93	Kings 3 @ Pens 4	1	3	4	2	1	1	2	Even
06-Nov-93	Pens 3 @ Kings 8		2	2	-2		4	4	3
26-Mar-96	Blues 4 @ Pens 8	5	2	7	3		1	1	-2
16-Oct-96	Pens 1 @ NYR 8			0	-2		2	2	2
16-Nov-96	NYR 8 @ Pens 3		1	1	-1	1	1	2	Even
25-Jan-97	NYR 7 @ Pens 4			0	-2		3	3	1
24-Mar-97	Pens 0 @ NYR 3			0	-1	1	1	2	2
	Total (25 games)	11	27	38	-18	15	41	56	23
	Oilers-era (11 games)	3	10	13	-7	7	15	22	8
	Post-Oilers (14 games)	8	17	25	-11	8	26	34	15

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

FYI even if all you say is true, as per my post above:

- This has nothing to do with 1vs1 ability
- A head to head comparison in a team sport - while really fun to discuss for ego purposes or bragging rights - isn't really representative of a player's ability.

 

[bobholly39]

Actually, I don't. I have no issue whatsoever if everyone thinks Lemieux was a better player than Gretzky. I have no argument for that, and I don't disagree with anyone's considered, informed opinion.

What bothers me is when posters resort to "alternative facts" in order to support their opinions. That's when I respond.

Yeah but the issue is you respond with similarly altered facts. Comparing 89 Lemieux and 89 Gretzky and pretending they're both at their peak is wrong.

But it's just as wrong to pretend the opposite, that 85, 86 ot 87 Lemieux was peak Lemieux who got beaten by peak Gretzky.

The truth is that their offensive peaks didn't happen in the same year. Lemieux took more time to hit his peak in the NHL than Gretzky - flip-side is he seemed to age better, though it's hard to say exactly how much injuries/games missed helped or hurt that.

 

[daver]

And if there were a 120 point season and a 115 point season, would it matter if the guy with 120 points had an extra 2 PPO per game?

Not sure I see this as being a realistic scenario. Any examples of two players who dominated the league but one had way more PPOs?

 

[blogofmike]

Not sure I see this as being a realistic scenario. Any examples of two players who dominated the league but one had way more PPOs?

A little pre-peak for Mario but 86 Pens had about +130 PPO on the 86 Oilers.

 

[daver]

A little pre-peak for Mario but 86 Pens had about +130 PPO on the 86 Oilers.

If a player puts up 15 to 20% more points than the best of the rest multiple times, ES vs. PP points vs. their direct peers and vs. their peers from the past would be meaningless to me.

Speculation that a player would do differently if put on a different team is baseless. And why are we talking about two members of the Big 4? Are you saying that Mario should not be in the Big 4?