-I dont want to beat a dead horse on this. But Crosby had 3 game winning goals in 2016 on the top line, Phil Kessel had 0 on the 3rd line. One player is the captain, one player played on the 3rd line. The only other player deserving of the Conn in 2016 was Matt Murray. I simply cannot fathom or see any argument for Phil Kessel getting it.
What would it take for a player of today to challenge for a spot in the big 4?
- Thread starter grentthealien
- Start date
-I dont want to beat a dead horse on this. But Crosby had 3 game winning goals in 2016 on the top line, Phil Kessel had 0 on the 3rd line. One player is the captain, one player played on the 3rd line. The only other player deserving of the Conn in 2016 was Matt Murray. I simply cannot fathom or see any argument for Phil Kessel getting it.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
If he had been consistently good and productive throughout those playoffs before the last round, that Smythe win wouldn't stand out as a particularly weak one despite his SCF showing (to me anyway), but he had two points (and no goals) in round two against the Capitals and then also went scoreless in the SCF and had just two assists in the first five games against SJ (and he had only five points in seven games against the Lightning in between), but I digress because this topic has been beaten to death.
JackSlater
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2010
- 18,088
- 12,737
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
I kept a running tab of the Conn Smythe Trophy that year (and for others as well) because I watched every single second of every single game of the 2016 playoffs...there was no case for Murray and very, very strong case for Kessel. It was the first time we've ever seen Kessel actually play defense, he was a major factor and if he had cashed on even one of the three or four just A+ chances he had in the Final, I'm pretty confident he wins it out right...
For games played up to and including April 20:
1. Braden Holtby
2. Nikita Kucherov
3. Vladimir Tarasenko
4. Joe Pavelski
5. John Tavares
For games played up to and including April 24:
1. Braden Holtby
2. John Tavares
3. Nikita Kucherov
4. Joe Pavelski
5. Jamie Benn
For games played up to and including May 1:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. John Tavares
3. Jamie Benn
4. Braden Holtby
5. Kristopher Letang / Alex Pietrangelo
For games played up to and including May 7:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Braden Holtby
3. Jamie Benn
4. Nikita Kucherov
5. Colin Wilson
HM (no order): Alex Pietrangelo, Brent Burns, Kristopher Letang, John Tavares, John Carlson - just couldn't find a place for them, but all very deserving.
For games played up to and including May 12:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Alex Pietrangelo
3. Nikita Kucherov
4. Kristopher Letang
5. Victor Hedman/Brent Burns
For games played up to and including May 22:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Alex Pietrangelo
3. Kristopher Letang
4. Victor Hedman
5. Nikita Kucherov / Phil Kessel
For games played up to and including May 29:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Kristopher Letang
3. Phil Kessel
4. Brent Burns
5. Joe Thornton
For games played up to and including May 30:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Kristopher Letang
3. Phil Kessel
4. Brent Burns
5. Joe Thornton
Tracking up: Matt Murray, Sidney Crosby, Nick Bonino, Martin Jones
Tracking down: Evgeni Malkin, Marc-Edouard Vlasic
For games played up to and including June 6:
1. Phil Kessel
2. Sidney Crosby
3. Kristopher Letang
4. Joe Pavelski
5. Brent Burns
For games played up to and including June 12:
1. Phil Kessel
2. Sidney Crosby
3. Kristopher Letang
4. Brent Burns
5. Logan Couture
Typically, players don't jump so much but Sid was a monster in the first three games of the Final. It wasn't enough to offset Kessel's playoff though. Murray really wasn't on the table for me other than the cute story/rookie goalie thing...but clearly he didn't really rank. Had a penchant for some questionable short side goals at questionable times...did not help us at all in the Wales Conference Final vs Tampa - even lost his job going into a pivotal game 5...we won on the back of 81, 87 and 58 in 2016.
For games played up to and including April 20:
1. Braden Holtby
2. Nikita Kucherov
3. Vladimir Tarasenko
4. Joe Pavelski
5. John Tavares
For games played up to and including April 24:
1. Braden Holtby
2. John Tavares
3. Nikita Kucherov
4. Joe Pavelski
5. Jamie Benn
For games played up to and including May 1:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. John Tavares
3. Jamie Benn
4. Braden Holtby
5. Kristopher Letang / Alex Pietrangelo
For games played up to and including May 7:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Braden Holtby
3. Jamie Benn
4. Nikita Kucherov
5. Colin Wilson
HM (no order): Alex Pietrangelo, Brent Burns, Kristopher Letang, John Tavares, John Carlson - just couldn't find a place for them, but all very deserving.
For games played up to and including May 12:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Alex Pietrangelo
3. Nikita Kucherov
4. Kristopher Letang
5. Victor Hedman/Brent Burns
For games played up to and including May 22:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Alex Pietrangelo
3. Kristopher Letang
4. Victor Hedman
5. Nikita Kucherov / Phil Kessel
For games played up to and including May 29:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Kristopher Letang
3. Phil Kessel
4. Brent Burns
5. Joe Thornton
For games played up to and including May 30:
1. Joe Pavelski
2. Kristopher Letang
3. Phil Kessel
4. Brent Burns
5. Joe Thornton
Tracking up: Matt Murray, Sidney Crosby, Nick Bonino, Martin Jones
Tracking down: Evgeni Malkin, Marc-Edouard Vlasic
For games played up to and including June 6:
1. Phil Kessel
2. Sidney Crosby
3. Kristopher Letang
4. Joe Pavelski
5. Brent Burns
For games played up to and including June 12:
1. Phil Kessel
2. Sidney Crosby
3. Kristopher Letang
4. Brent Burns
5. Logan Couture
Typically, players don't jump so much but Sid was a monster in the first three games of the Final. It wasn't enough to offset Kessel's playoff though. Murray really wasn't on the table for me other than the cute story/rookie goalie thing...but clearly he didn't really rank. Had a penchant for some questionable short side goals at questionable times...did not help us at all in the Wales Conference Final vs Tampa - even lost his job going into a pivotal game 5...we won on the back of 81, 87 and 58 in 2016.
-2.08 GAA with 92.3% save percentage. Tim Thomas won it with a 1.98 and 94% with Chara and Bergeron finishing Top 3 in Norris and Selke that year
-And a 3rd string player with 0 game winning goals has never come close to winning the Conn like Kessel that year. And if it has, Ive never heard of it
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
- Jan 16, 2005
- 9,144
- 14,457
Just to be clear, do you agree that a legitimate Conn Smythe winner should have at least one game winning goal during the playoffs? (And this is what would have made Kessel an undeserving winner?)
-Its not 100% necessary or even really all that necessary. But if the players are close in ppg in such, game winners should tip the scale at least to a degree. And everyone would agree there is a difference between 1st and 2nd line let alone 1st and 3rd line. That would be really my biggest debating point is the the 1st and 3rd line followed by game winners.
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
This thread isn't for that. I made a thread for that very purpose:
https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/overrated-and-underrated-hockey-players.2528485/
Sentinel
Registered User
This "third line" narrative is just WRONG. Kessel-Bonino-Hagelin line CARRIED the Penguins that year. Malkin was injured and was a shadow of himself. Crosby was far from being an offensive dynamo. It was the HBK line that won them the Cup. Not some mythical "third line."
And, dude, you define "bias" and "shock value." Your iconoclastic attitude shows lack of information.
-Pretty hard to suggest that since the powerplay converted at 24%, roughly half of Crosby-Malkin-Kessel total points came from the powerplay, and 9 players had at least 10+ points in the playoffs that year. It was more of the team being balanced then anything.
The Panther
Registered User
Since you're skilled at cherry-picking stats, let me do some of my own:
From 1976 to 1980, Esposito was 9th in NHL goals scored. This is when he was 35-36 years old, at a time when most players retired at age 32. Three of those four seasons, The Rangers had a losing record and were not a good club, yet Esposito scored more NHL goals than players like Gilbert Perreault and Reggie Leach, who were 10 years younger and on better teams. He also led the Rangers in scoring every one of those 4 seasons. He also led the Rangers in scoring when they went to the Finals in 1979 (his goals and points were best of all players who didn't win the Cup, and 3rd overall, at age 37). But this is all "garbage", I guess...
By the way, it was already pointed out (but worth repeating) that Esposito scored 126 points (most in NHL history until he broke it two years later) for Boston in 1969...when Orr scored 64 points.
Nor was he a bad player in Chicago, as you said. He was also 9th in NHL goals scored from 1964 to 1967, with Chicago. And this as a 2nd-line center.
His first season in Boston, Esposito's PPG improved only a bit -- from 0.88 his last year in Chicago, on the 2nd line, to 1.14 in Boston, on the 1st line (he made that jump, btw, with Orr playing only 46 games that season). That increase is just par-for-the-course for any player hitting his prime while also moving up in PP/ice-time from second-line to first-line duty.
Espo's huge jump the following season (1968-69) is harder to explain -- but it likely has much to do with overall NHL scoring increasing a lot, for the first time, that season, and Boston simultaneously becoming a top team for the first time in ages.
And, as mentioned, we all know how strong Esposito was against the Soviets in 1972, with no Orr in sight.
Here is what we can say, with (I think) some confidence:
-- In Chicago, Esposito was a really good 2nd-liner, but first power-play duty and such would have gone to Mikita over him (I'm guessing)
-- In Boston, Esposito was just rounding into his prime when traded there, to a team with an emerging high-powered offence, and on which he was given 1st-line duty and probably nearly all the power-play time
-- In New York, Espo was still a top-level goal scorer in the NHL, but he was old and on a bad team
So, had Espo had his prime years as a first-line center on another team, with no Orr and without such a high-octane offense as Boston's, I guess he'd have scored somewhere in between what he did in Boston and what he did in Chicago/New York. That is, instead of scoring between 84 and 152 points per year, he'd likely have scored between 75 and 120 points per year, maybe winning one or two scoring titles (i.e., the same as Crosby).
Canadiens1958
Registered User
20th in RS points:
Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com
41st in PO points:
Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com
POs behind Bill Hay. So was the third center.
You are guessing about the PP. Mikita played the point.
Last edited:
-What does retiring so early have to do with anything? All that shows is players back then had weak stamina and training by retiring early 30s or at 30 or younger. Ali was 35 years old with a 55-2 record and the heavyweight champion of the world. Howe played to 50. Jagr to 46. Tom Brady is 41. And hockey players cant play in their 30s? Thats their fault for weak training. And as I said all along the talent back then was weak in comparison to today. This further proves my point that players couldnt play at 30 years old back then in your words.
-Why does being 9th in goals scored even worthy? Anders Lee was 8th this year in goals and no one literally cares or will remember. 9th? In Goals? Thats impressive to you? Impressive to me is a leader in points, or in goals, or in playoffs, or something. But 9th in goals? Common....
-What makes a record impressive if it is passed over time and time again? Because someone did it first? Quite honestly that is ridiculous aka Rocket Richard (most overrated NHL player ever) . In the 1400's people could maybe bench press 200lbs. Today, powerlifters can bench press over 800lbs. Whats the point of an old record if it was set first if someone destroys the record later on. There were good swimmers in the 1930s and sprinters in the 1930s. Then Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt came along, demolished every record, and the rest is history and everyone else was a has been turned nobody. Thats the reality and the truth. If your old record is passed over and destroyed with equal playing fields, your record never had value to being with. All that old record was, was luck because of lack of competition and skillworthy people competing against you. Such as an all Canadian NHL league lacking skill pre-1980.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Players retired early or refused NHL offers/opportunities because of business or employment opportunities.
Records were broken by default due to rule changes or increased games in the schedule.
Some were preserved by the same forces. George Hainsworth 22 shutouts in the same season.
The Panther
Registered User
Whatever. So, he was top-20 in points and top-10 in goals scored.
Are you agreeing with the esteemed poster PenguinSpeed that this is "garbage"?
The Panther
Registered User
(Since you seemingly missed it, I said Esposito was 9th in goals scored over a 4-year period, not once in isolation.)
For a comparable, here are players who have been 9th in goals scored over a four-season period (according to you, they're all garbage):
2014-2018 -- Brad Marchand
2011-2015 -- Tyler Seguin
2008-2011 -- Patrick Marleau
So those are the kind of recent guys Esposito matched in goal-scoring when he was 8-10 years past his prime and on a sub-.500 team.
Crosby, btw:
13th 2006 - 2010
7th 2008 - 2011
17th 2010-2013
3rd 2013-2017
So, it would appear Crosby's goal-scoring in his prime and on a good team is about the exact equivalent of Espo's when he was old and on a bad team.
alko
Registered User
So, last 10 pages are not about who Could jump into Big 4, but hot discussion about Howe and Crosby (with some others players).
Could we go back to original topic?
Could we go back to original topic?
alko
Registered User
Another question to this theme.
Why actually Big Four? Because of Mount Rushmore? When, yes, for Canadians it hasn't any significance, has it?
Why actually Big Four? Because of Mount Rushmore? When, yes, for Canadians it hasn't any significance, has it?
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
- 12,541
- 4,938
Hockey Reference's "era adjustment" isn't a scientific tool that gives you the be all and end all numbers. It's one approach out of several. Another can be found here.
This has nothing to do with the a player's ability to separate themselves from their peer group which in the case of Howe and Crosby are the other elite offensive forwards.
League GPG is also heavily influenced by the # of PPs called in any given year. Using league GPG is a very flawed method to compare players, as is any effort to "adjust" numbers. Measuring performance vs. respective peers requires no adjusting.
This is a reasonable position. It shouldn't change the general idea that Crosby could have a playoff resume that moves him closer to the Big 4 than his RS resume would seem to indicate. Pat Roy gets a boatload of credit for his playoff performances as does Rocket Richard; both are elevated above their RS statures because of it. At some point, winning should matter, and Crosby has done nothing but win at a level befitting an all-time great so far in his career while being the clear best playoff performer of his era. He has also been the best international performer over the course of the three best-on-best titles won by Canada.
Not going to say that if he wins X more Cups or Smythes he gets into the Big 4 discussion, just pointing out that potentially being the 2nd best playoff performer should hold some weight rather than being dismissed because playoff success can be random.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Top 41 in playoff scoring is a red flag. Comfortably out played by Ralph Backstrom and other 3rd centers.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
During the same season, playing RW, Howe, Geoffrion and Bathgate faced different opponents at all positions. They did not face teammates.
Since all three played the point on the PP, their deployment and success was linked to the calling of penalties:
NHL.com - Stats
1952-53 season provided, reset for other seasons you wish to explore.
