what we need to get over the edge

[CoolburnIsGone]

It wasn't that long ago that Detroit was known for building their team largely out of Ufa signings. The last time they won the cup was with a patchwork of players drafted by other teams. Anaheim just grabbed Kesler to help them get over the top. And do you think that Chicago or LA would really be as good as they have been without Hossa or Carter? Home grown talent is great but at some point to have to augment that core to fill those roles and put the team over the top.

While I agree with your premise, you're wrong about the Detroit team you're referencing. The last time they won the cup was 07-08 and only Rafalski and Cleary weren't drafted by them among their top players. They had drafted Dats, Z, Lidstrom, Hudler, Holmstrom, Filppula, Franzen, Kronwall, and even Kopecky. Maybe you're referring to their 01-02 Cup win when they were led by guys like Shanny, Hull, Robitaille, Larionov & Chelios to go with their existing core of Yzerman, Federov, Lidstrom, and Dats.

No matter what, you need at least 1-2 top forwards in the entire league to get among the elite and so far we dont really have that yet. Thats what those names are, regardless of whether they were drafted by that team or not. Bjugstad is the closest at this point and he's still not there yet. Unforuntately, Howboutthempanthers is right that the only thing to really get us over the edge is Time. That and a little luck that guys like Bjugstad, Huberdeau, Barkov, etc develop better than they have thus far (though Bjugstad has developed better than we hoped, we need even more out of him to get over the edge).

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

Maybe a big trade is EXACTLY what this team needs to get over the hump. Worked in 11-12. Worth a shot.

Different mix entirely. 11-12 this team was on early life support. I think they just got shut out twice in a row and on a losing streak. Trading a "big" name was a kickstart to the season. Right now this team is good and if left alone could make the playoffs. Just making a trade to simply make one isn't wise at all. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yeah we definetly need scoring winger but it needs to be the move that makes the most sense for the team.

 

[EnforceTheLaus]

i just wonder who's available. id like to go after perron, reilly smith, and sharp just to name some.

2 parts is Kuli is already playing like a top Dman this season. He continues I won't be worried. Secondly Big Buff is UFA coincidently the same time Campbell is makes perfect sense to go after to me.

 

[spacemanatee]

Bergy (resigned)-Barkov-XXXX

i know bergy is the flavor of the week right now but i really don't wanna see him on a top line with barkov next season. sry

 

[spacemanatee]

watched the winter classic and noticed that Sharp is down to the 4th line in hawks

yeah why was that? i thought it was pretty weird. i only saw the line-up + mabye the first couple of seconds of the game so didn't get to hear why he was on their 4th

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

My bi-weekly post (everyone knows I read here more than I post), but the answer is 100% that elite goalscorer. Most of us seem to agree that Bergy compliments Barkov really well, but the problem is Bergy isn't a true top 6 player. The team needs an Bergy+ type winger who can finish for Barkov and give us another really good scoring line. It's been discussed in the Bergy thread how great that line is at possession, but at the end of the day I think they need a different third linemate who can keep up and then actually score.

Umm... no. However, it could be because I'm not a fortuneteller. I think that folks here downplay the importance of depth in an organization since the trade proposals essentially are giving out prospects and picks for "proven" NHLers like they are candy. With the lack of decent depth allows likes of Fleischmann to give out a lackluster performance and not give a **** because he'll still be in the roster on the next day. He wouldn't have a NMC if there was proper competition to begin with. Trading a bunch of young guys for a presumed goal scorer potentially creates another similar situation to that of Flash. What else would explain his regression? The guaranteed roster spots, not matter how good the player in question is, just re-enforces the perceived image of a nursing home for NHLers. Why else e.g. Simmonds would state that "this ain't the Florida of old" if that wasn't the case?

As Coolburn stated, I agree that usually an above average team needs a few a lethal players in their roster in order to be reckoned with. The combo of Bjugstad, Barkov, Huberdeau, Ekblad, Trocheck, Hayes, Pirri, Shore, Howden and Grim provides just that and, more importantly, depth.

 

[Erased]

While I agree with your premise, you're wrong about the Detroit team you're referencing. The last time they won the cup was 07-08 and only Rafalski and Cleary weren't drafted by them among their top players. They had drafted Dats, Z, Lidstrom, Hudler, Holmstrom, Filppula, Franzen, Kronwall, and even Kopecky. Maybe you're referring to their 01-02 Cup win when they were led by guys like Shanny, Hull, Robitaille, Larionov & Chelios to go with their existing core of Yzerman, Federov, Lidstrom, and Dats.

No matter what, you need at least 1-2 top forwards in the entire league to get among the elite and so far we dont really have that yet. Thats what those names are, regardless of whether they were drafted by that team or not. Bjugstad is the closest at this point and he's still not there yet. Unforuntately, Howboutthempanthers is right that the only thing to really get us over the edge is Time. That and a little luck that guys like Bjugstad, Huberdeau, Barkov, etc develop better than they have thus far (though Bjugstad has developed better than we hoped, we need even more out of him to get over the edge).

Besides Rafalski and Cleary they also aquired, Draper, Samuelsson Stuart Chelios (although injured prior to finals he did play 69 games during the season and 18 playoff games) and Lilja. That is 2 of their top 5 scorers, half of their defensemen, and if you include Osgood who had left but been brought back in free agency, both of their goalies. They also went and signed Hossa in the next offseason for their return to the finals the next year.

 

[CatscratchFever]

Umm... no. However, it could be because I'm not a fortuneteller. I think that folks here downplay the importance of depth in an organization since the trade proposals essentially are giving out prospects and picks for "proven" NHLers like they are candy. With the lack of decent depth allows likes of Fleischmann to give out a lackluster performance and not give a **** because he'll still be in the roster on the next day. He wouldn't have a NMC if there was proper competition to begin with. Trading a bunch of young guys for a presumed goal scorer potentially creates another similar situation to that of Flash. What else would explain his regression? The guaranteed roster spots, not matter how good the player in question is, just re-enforces the perceived image of a nursing home for NHLers. Why else e.g. Simmonds would state that "this ain't the Florida of old" if that wasn't the case?

As Coolburn stated, I agree that usually an above average team needs a few a lethal players in their roster in order to be reckoned with. The combo of Bjugstad, Barkov, Huberdeau, Ekblad, Trocheck, Hayes, Pirri, Shore, Howden and Grim provides just that and, more importantly, depth.

Your list there may show depth, but there is absolutely nothing lethal about that group. Their scoring rankings 27-(114th)*team leader, 16-(443rd), 11-(192nd), 5-(137th)*2nd on team, 21-(284), 12-(173rd)*4th on team. This is in the whole NHL. We don't have a guy in the top 30, top 50, hell, not even in the top 100!!!! It's insane that we're even in a wildcard battle! The last time we made the playoffs, at least Weiss, Flash, and Steeg flirted in the top 50 all year. Goal scoring has been, is, and will be a problem for as long as these guys remain non-lethal.

 

[Erick*]

Umm... no. However, it could be because I'm not a fortuneteller. I think that folks here downplay the importance of depth in an organization since the trade proposals essentially are giving out prospects and picks for "proven" NHLers like they are candy. With the lack of decent depth allows likes of Fleischmann to give out a lackluster performance and not give a **** because he'll still be in the roster on the next day. He wouldn't have a NMC if there was proper competition to begin with. Trading a bunch of young guys for a presumed goal scorer potentially creates another similar situation to that of Flash. What else would explain his regression? The guaranteed roster spots, not matter how good the player in question is, just re-enforces the perceived image of a nursing home for NHLers. Why else e.g. Simmonds would state that "this ain't the Florida of old" if that wasn't the case?

As Coolburn stated, I agree that usually an above average team needs a few a lethal players in their roster in order to be reckoned with. The combo of Bjugstad, Barkov, Huberdeau, Ekblad, Trocheck, Hayes, Pirri, Shore, Howden and Grim provides just that and, more importantly, depth.

I feel like we have plenty of depth.
The problem is lack of scoring. We need scoring line players. We have too many checking line players on scoring lines.

 

[Erick*]

For what it's worth, we didn't make a "big trade" in 11-12. That Booth deal was just a change of scenery deal.

I hope we go for something bigger this year. This year's team is way better than 11-12. We can give up future assets for the right player now because this team is much more ready to contend.

The only thing this year's team doesn't do well is score and that's because the team lacks elite talent. It's really that simple.

Systematically, they play a fine game. The team defense has been good and the goaltending is among the best in the league.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

I feel like we have plenty of depth.
The problem is lack of scoring. We need scoring line players. We have too many checking line players on scoring lines.

I agree with that too...we actually have more than enough depth and just not enough top scoring line players. The problem is that we probably dont realistically have that internally and everyone is scared to trade any of the youth in fear that they turn into better players once traded. Catch-22 which basically puts us exactly where we are for quite a while, hoping that someone in our forward prospect pool ends up emerging as a top tier talent.

Keep in mind, I'm not talking at all about any of our d-men either cause several of those guys seem to be above their development curve (Ekblad, Matheson, etc). We need a top tier forward and it doesnt appear we have that coming in the current or next yr teams.

 

[CatscratchFever]

For what it's worth, we didn't make a "big trade" in 11-12. That Booth deal was just a change of scenery deal.

I hope we go for something bigger this year. This year's team is way better than 11-12. We can give up future assets for the right player now because this team is much more ready to contend.

The only thing this year's team doesn't do well is score and that's because the team lacks elite talent. It's really that simple.

Systematically, they play a fine game. The team defense has been good and the goaltending is among the best in the league.

I'm starting to wonder if DT loves his prospects so much, he's unwilling to part with any for a bigger piece.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

I'm starting to wonder if DT loves his prospects so much, he's unwilling to part with any for a bigger piece.

You are confusing internal competition with love for prospects. There's numerous reasons why he considers the kids in a higher regard, and rightfully so, than most.

Lack of scoring scoring might correlate with position in the standing, but it doesn't explain causality. I know that some of you might not believe in the stats, but this is still a game like any other. Free riders in a team cost at least the same as a one high producing individual. If you consider every aspect of the effects of a blockbuster deal, you'll see how difficult it is to part from a bunch of prospects/picks strategy-wise. And there's no guarantees that an assumed goal scorer continues to perform in the same level after acquiring him no matter how "proven" the guy is (e.g. Vanek). But I guess you could try the EDM-way and scratch your head for figuring why having a 80pt player doesn't have the hoped for effect to the standings. And I'm still trying to figure out how people expect that a one single player will fix the drought for the entire team. Should Gallant play the guy for +40min in three different lines?

 

[batting1k]

You are confusing internal competition with love for prospects. There's numerous reasons why he considers the kids in a higher regard, and rightfully so, than most.

Lack of scoring scoring might correlate with position in the standing, but it doesn't explain causality. I know that some of you might not believe in the stats, but this is still a game like any other. Free riders in a team cost at least the same as a one high producing individual. If you consider every aspect of the effects of a blockbuster deal, you'll see how difficult it is to part from a bunch of prospects/picks strategy-wise. And there's no guarantees that an assumed goal scorer continues to perform in the same level after acquiring him no matter how "proven" the guy is (e.g. Vanek). But I guess you could try the EDM-way and scratch your head for figuring why having a 80pt player doesn't have the hoped for effect to the standings. And I'm still trying to figure out how people expect that a one single player will fix the drought for the entire team. Should Gallant play the guy for +40min in three different lines?

So you don't think getting Taylor Hall or Evander Kane will make us start scoring 10 goals per game?

 

[RainingRats]

You are confusing internal competition with love for prospects. There's numerous reasons why he considers the kids in a higher regard, and rightfully so, than most.

Lack of scoring scoring might correlate with position in the standing, but it doesn't explain causality. I know that some of you might not believe in the stats, but this is still a game like any other. Free riders in a team cost at least the same as a one high producing individual. If you consider every aspect of the effects of a blockbuster deal, you'll see how difficult it is to part from a bunch of prospects/picks strategy-wise. And there's no guarantees that an assumed goal scorer continues to perform in the same level after acquiring him no matter how "proven" the guy is (e.g. Vanek). But I guess you could try the EDM-way and scratch your head for figuring why having a 80pt player doesn't have the hoped for effect to the standings. And I'm still trying to figure out how people expect that a one single player will fix the drought for the entire team. Should Gallant play the guy for +40min in three different lines?

One great offensive player doesn't fix the entire team but it certainly helps. Look what Kane is doing for Richards and Versteeg. What Bure did for Kozlov. What a legit offensive weapon does is make the players around them better. They will also relieve other offensive players from facing the opponent's best defensive players. They tend to draw more penalties and usually help improve the powerplay. They would certainly help with the young players development by either giving them an elite talent to play with or freeing up softer minutes. It wont fix the entire drought but it will absolutely help and accelerate things offensively.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

So you don't think getting Taylor Hall or Evander Kane will make us start scoring 10 goals per game?

There's always a chance. [insert compulsory jim carey-pic]

[mod]

 

[RainingRats]

Perron to Pitt for a first round pick...

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

One great offensive player doesn't fix the entire team but it certainly helps. Look what Kane is doing for Richards and Versteeg. What Bure did for Kozlov. What a legit offensive weapon does is make the players around them better. They will also relieve other offensive players from facing the opponent's best defensive players. They tend to draw more penalties and usually help improve the powerplay. They would certainly help with the young players development by either giving them an elite talent to play with or freeing up softer minutes. It wont fix the entire drought but it will absolutely help and accelerate things offensively.

Richards and Versteeg are definitely some scrapes from the bottom of a barrel that have been summoned to emerge as good players by Kane, and just Kane alone.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

Perron to Pitt for a first round pick...

And the eternal rebuild continue.. choo-choo!

Gotta feel it for the fans of EDM. The upcoming points should be easy pickins on the road.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

Perron to Pitt for a first round pick...

That sets the market value for a top 6 winger (and not a top liner either). No chance we trade for a top 6 winger of any value this season now.

 

[RainingRats]

Richards and Versteeg are definitely some scrapes from the bottom of a barrel that have been summoned to emerge as good players by Kane, and just Kane alone.

Yeah, dude. Elite offensive players don't make the players around them better. Got it. Versteeg and Richards are helping Kane. Got it.

 

[RainingRats]

That sets the market value for a top 6 winger (and not a top liner either). No chance we trade for a top 6 winger of any value this season now.

Yeah, I don't see Tallon moving the pick for a forward unless we're a lock for the playoffs.

 

[Jean Luc Discard]

Yeah, dude. Elite offensive players don't make the players around them better. Got it. Versteeg and Richards are helping Kane. Got it.

Uh huh.. only those three are on the ice for the hawks and Keith, Seabrook, Hammer and Odoya just watch the action from the bench.

I didn't say that Versteeg and Richards are somehow secrets for Kane's success, or something else for that matter that you're implying. This is still a team game to my knowledge and if Richards and Versteeg were such lousy players (since that you suggested that as an example), they would have an effect to Kane's game as well.

 

[Big Bjugs]

It wasn't that long ago that Detroit was known for building their team largely out of Ufa signings. The last time they won the cup was with a patchwork of players drafted by other teams. Anaheim just grabbed Kesler to help them get over the top. And do you think that Chicago or LA would really be as good as they have been without Hossa or Carter? Home grown talent is great but at some point to have to augment that core to fill those roles and put the team over the top.

By all means if we can add elite talent through free agency or a trade, do it. I just don't have the same feeling I did earlier this year in that we HAVE to make a deal. I really think our future in goaltending needs to be addressed so we can avoid a disaster in that area.

What would it cost us to land a Hossa or Carter or Nash(hypothetically)?

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

By all means if we can add elite talent through free agency or a trade, do it. I just don't have the same feeling I did earlier this year in that we HAVE to make a deal. I really think our future in goaltending needs to be addressed so we can avoid a disaster in that area.

What would it cost us to land a Hossa or Carter or Nash(hypothetically)?

Not hard to figure out based on what those guys were traded for previously:

Rick Nash
Steven Delisle
2013 conditional 3rd round pick

for

Brandon Dubinsky
Artem Anisimov
Tim Erixon
2013 1st round pick
------------------------------
Greg de Vries
Marian Hossa

for

Dany Heatley
-------------------------------
Colby Armstrong
Erik Christensen
Angelo Esposito
2008 1st round pick (#29-Daultan Leveille)

for

Pascal Dupuis
Marian Hossa
--------------------------------
Jeff Carter

for

Jack Johnson
2012 or 2013 conditional 1st round pick
--------------------------------
Jakub Voracek
2011 1st round pick (#8-Sean Couturier)
2011 3rd round pick (#68-Nick Cousins)

for

Jeff Carter

The common theme is just about every one of those deals is a 1st round pick is involved.