What to make of this: Toews: +193, Kane: +59

[rent free]

Chris tierney put up 40 points with next to nothing power play usage. Toews put up 52 with 3 minutes per game of power play time.

52 points is not pretty good with that amount of power play time.

52 points is pretty good regardless regardless of the situations.

 

[Narow]

Why doesnt it matter? Goal differential is what wins hockey games, and that's what PM is when you're on the ice.

Yes and no not neccessarly...

For example.

Player A gets scored on 1 goal every game for 10 games and he/his line/team scores zero. In game 11 they score 25 goals and conceive zero.

For examples sake player A's line conceived and scored every goal at 5v5. Meaning player A would be at plus 15 after that.

Meanwhile player B plays on that other team and is -15.

Player A has 1 win
Player b has 10 wins

But you are correct in goal differential being the ultimate factor when looking at teams playing in any particular single match.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

52 points is pretty good regardless regardless of the situations.

Not when you're the team's supposed #1 center and at that price point.

 

[drewjenks]

What should one make of this fact?

Yeah, we **** on PlusMinus but these guys play on the same team and that is a really big discrepancy.

Toews might have played with the better wingers but he also plays against harder opponents in more of a checking role than Kanes line.

1. Kane doesn't get to play with a Teows caliber a 2-way C all the time.
2. Teows gets to play with himself all the time.

Based on the numbers, we can deduce that Teows enjoys playing with himself.
I didn't realize he was such a horn-dog...I guess my priest was right.

 

[Laineux]

Toews has obviously been the better player through their careers, but offense is sexy.

 

[NJ DevLolz]

What should one make of this fact?

Yeah, we **** on PlusMinus but these guys play on the same team and that is a really big discrepancy.

Toews might have played with the better wingers but he also plays against harder opponents in more of a checking role than Kanes line.

Kane doesn't PK; Toews does. Toews is out trying preserve leads and is on the ice for ENG. Kane does not. I bet that accounts for a decent amount.

 

[Sky04]

Kane doesn't PK; Toews does. Toews is out trying preserve leads and is on the ice for ENG. Kane does not. I bet that accounts for a decent amount.

Kane gets his team the lead for them to preserve and as the Blackhawks would know this year, you need leads to win so...

 

[Sky04]

Toews has obviously been the better player through their careers, but offense is sexy.

Yeah no, Kane has always been better.

 

[OVrocks]

Kane is a cherry picker.

 

[EdzosCrayon]

Toews has obviously been the better player through their careers, but offense is sexy.

As a Hawks fan I'd say Kane has easily been the better player from about 2015 to present but prior to that I agree, Toews was absolutely the better player.

 

[Brian McDavid]

Kane is, quite obviously, the better player.

 

[McKappa]

Toews has obviously been the better player through their careers, but offense is sexy.

Haha good one

 

[JaegerDice]

There are better stats than plus-minus to show it, but yes, Toews has had a greater impact on 5v5 goal differential throughout his career than Kane.

He was a more impactful player for the Blackhawks from 2008 to 2015. Since then, Kane has been more impactful.

EDIT: Saying he was better probably isn't accurate. He was certainly a better all-around player than Kane, but both were excellent at their roles.

 

[DannyGallivan]

What should one make of this fact?

Yeah, we **** on PlusMinus but these guys play on the same team and that is a really big discrepancy.

Toews might have played with the better wingers but he also plays against harder opponents in more of a checking role than Kanes line.

While I've always considered plus/minus a somewhat unfair stat, I believe it tells an accurate story from a macro point of view. In other words, really big numbers, either way, paints an accurate description of both the player and the team.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

(throws up Hands)

Well, I guess we're gonna just throw out the fact the Hawks dynasty was built on team play instead of individual statistics.

Toews played his role to perfection and even last year in his "decline" still had very good corsi numbers and tilted the ice while Kane pretty much mailed it in after Crawford went down.

Good thing the Hawks took their three Cups and only until last year did a team actually tie them with most Cup wins after the lockout with almost a decade in time trying, amirite?

This forum will always be the Toews of the internet. They are one.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Toews was the more important player up until he signed that albatross of a contract. His game just simply does not translate well later in his career as his physical abilities start to diminish. Kane however, uses pure skill and hockey IQ to be successful. He's been the better play for the past 2-3 years and that's not even close and likely will be much, much better for the duration of the contract. One guy got paid for what he HAS done, the other guy got paid for what he has done + what he will continue to do. Value-wise kane wins. Skill wise Kane wins. Career wise to date you could make the argument for either but by the end of their careers I don't think it'll be much of a discussion.

 

[Menzinger]

52 points is pretty good regardless regardless of the situations.

It’s good if you’re Tyler Bozak, not a 1C.

That’s average top line production

 

[Rolo]

Toews got tougher match-ups, yes.. But he had Marcus Kruger taking a big bulk too. Toews still got a decent chunk of O-zone starts.
Toews also had superior line mates, and usually Keith on with him as well.

Kane played with Handzus, Bolland, Versteeg, Richards, Shaw, etc... during the cup winning years, after splitting up with Toews.

Toews played exclusively with Saad, prime Hossa, prime Sharp, Bickell and Stalberg.

 

[CanadienShark]

Why doesnt it matter? Goal differential is what wins hockey games, and that's what PM is when you're on the ice.

It's not so simple though. How and when players are used will skew things.

 

[karnige]

still not worth 10.5 a year. for that price you better put up points also

 

[Laineux]

still not worth 10.5 a year. for that price you better put up points also

Prime Toews was worth that but for some reason he hasn't been worth it ever since signing the contract.

 

[X66]

+/- is a hell of a drug.

 

[lomiller1]

Toews "lack of offence" is seriously overblown.

He had a grand total of 3 secondary assists last year. While secondary assists are great for padding stats, they usually indicate issues with line mates not the player.

His on ice sh% was just over 6.5% last year. This should rebound to the 8% range

While Toews has never been a bog PP producer, this appears to be more a function of how the Chi PP has been structured. No one on the Hawks, not even Kane, has had the positive influence on shots and scoring opportunities that Towes has had. Kane puts up a lot more points because he runs the PP form the half wall which means he’s almost always one of the last players to have touched the puck when they score.

 

[Sky04]

Kane puts up significantly more points because he creates significantly more offense, lets not make stuff up to devalue that.

 

[JaegerDice]

Kane puts up significantly more points because he creates significantly more offense, lets not make stuff up to devalue that.

What does this even mean?

If you're saying he puts up more points because he creates more scoring chances for himself and his teammates, then you're only correct in regards to the last few years. Prior to that that Toews had better xGF/60 and ixGF/60 numbers. Even the last few seasons, where Kane has been going nuts and Toews has been struggling, haven't been enough for Kane to make up the gap in career to date scoring-chance generation:


xGF/60

Kane 2.35
Toews 2.61


ixGF/60

Kane: 0.67
Toews: 0.71

numbers from corsica.hockey

These are the numbers for both RS and playoffs. I included playoffs since both have a large sample of playoff games, but I checked and the pattern holds across RS only and Playoffs only.