What to make of this: Toews: +193, Kane: +59

[Filthy Dangles]

What should one make of this fact?

Yeah, we shit on PlusMinus but these guys play on the same team and that is a really big discrepancy.

Toews might have played with the better wingers but he also plays against harder opponents in more of a checking role than Kanes line.

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[Pia8988]

What? Toews is better defensively than Kane? What an astounding f***ing revelation

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Kane is a sheltered one dimensional winger. His +/- doesn't really matter though

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Kane is a sheltered one dimensional winger. His +/- doesn't really matter though

Why doesnt it matter? Goal differential is what wins hockey games, and that's what PM is when you're on the ice.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Why doesnt it matter? Goal differential is what wins hockey games, and that's what PM is when you're on the ice.

Kane wins Chicago more games than he loses them by a considerable margin by playing hockey exactly the way he does.

 

[LeafFever]

+/- is a terrible stat. Toews is still overrated and overpaid and Kane is better.

 

[JustaFinnishGuy]

All of Kane's PP points aren't counted in this stat.
So, no. In this situation, I wouldn't count +/- as an accurate presentation of the players' skills or effects.

 

[LeafGrief]

Toews was one of the two-way best C's in the league for years. His offense has fallen off and he's now significantly overpaid, but his defense is still elite. Toews isn't overrated at all on HF, this place completely forgot how good he was the minute he signed that stupid contract. He was arguably a better and more valuable player than Kane until 2014. They were both pretty close to PPG players until 2014-15 when Toews' offense fell off and Kane's exploded in 2015-2016.

 

[Ceremony]

You know you don't get a + for goals scored on the powerplay, right?

 

[LeafFever]

Toews was one of the two-way best C's in the league for years. His offense has fallen off and he's now significantly overpaid, but his defense is still elite. Toews isn't overrated at all on HF, this place completely forgot how good he was the minute he signed that stupid contract. He was arguably a better and more valuable player than Kane until 2014. They were both pretty close to PPG players until 2014-15 when Toews' offense fell off and Kane's exploded in 2015-2016.

The Toews hate is due to backlash. At one time he was very overrated on here as well. It was inevitable backlash would happen. He never had the indivudual stats to justify the love he was getting.

 

[maacoshark]

Kane is a sheltered one dimensional winger. His +/- doesn't really matter though

It does when he is becoming a liability

 

[maacoshark]

Kane wins Chicago more games than he loses them by a considerable margin by playing hockey exactly the way he does.

That trend changed last season.

 

[rent free]

Toews is better defensively and better all around than Kane.

 

[LeafFever]

Toews is better defensively and better all around than Kane.

Toews overall game has regressed. Kane is better.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Why doesnt it matter? Goal differential is what wins hockey games, and that's what PM is when you're on the ice.

Not really.

Plus/Minus is:
* Goal Differential at even strength.
* Shorthanded Goals For when you play PK.
* Shorthanded Goals Against when you play PP.
* Empty Net Goal Differential.

If you want goal differential, look at actual goal differential. For example by looking at all situations goal differential for their careers:

Patrick Kane +486
Jonathan Toews +440

That's how an actual goal differential when on ice looks like. Of course, this is still not good since it inflates Kane's value as a PP wizard about as much as the original assertion deflated it.

 

[rent free]

Toews overall game has regressed. Kane is better.

Not overall. Kane is a defensive liability. Toews is still above average defensively and can produce.

 

[LeafFever]

Not overall. Kane is a defensive liability. Toews is still above average defensively and can produce.

Kind of outdated argument. Kane is fine defensively and Toews offensive game is quite terrible for his contract.

 

[rent free]

Kind of outdated argument. Kane is fine defensively and Toews offensive game is quite terrible for his contract.

It really isn't an outdated argument. TOWes puts up decent production despite not playing with Kane for the majority of his even strength time and he is still good defensively. Sure he is overpaid but he's effective at both ends of the ice. Kane is elite at one end of the ice and that it.

 

[GeeoffBrown]

Kane is a bum and they should trade him to the Flames

 

[Fataldogg]

Doughty +93
McDonagh +142

Doughty is much better. +/- is not everything. I'm not saying it's useless, because there is some merit to it, but Kane has been better than Toews for years now.

 

[daver]

Doesn't the Hawks #1 D-pairing usually play with Toews line? That would help one's plus/minus.

 

[Menzinger]

Not overall. Kane is a defensive liability. Toews is still above average defensively and can produce.

He doesn’t produce anywhere near Kane’s level. Kane had down year and still had 24 more points.

 

[rent free]

He doesn’t produce anywhere near Kane’s level. Kane had down year and still had 24 more points.

obviously he's not as dynamic as kane offensively, but he is a much better player in his own zone than kane is. 52 points is still pretty good

 

[T REX]

How much longer are you paying these guys?

It seem once they got PAID the Hawks haven't done much.

 

[AD1066]

Toews is/was a really good two-way player who also had the benefit of lining up alongside Keith (2x Norris), Seabrook (formerly excellent shutdown D), and Hossa (winger who was known for his elite two-way play). You could put any warm body as the other winger and that line would tilt the ice pretty heavily, so I wouldn't attribute the discrepancy above entirely due to Toews.