What to do with our goalies

[Dr.Sens(e)]

Hard to say, why can't Hammond play a full year in Bighampton? Seems like he's a great prospect and the team learned that goalie injuries happen so often.

He's not a prospect. He's four years older than Lehner and the same age as Carey Price, who is playing his 7th NHL season..

 

[WhiteLight*]

Only two starting goalies in the NHL are older than Anderson (and are within 2 years): Miller and Luongo.

Both those guys have had much better careers than Anderson: many Vezina trophy nominations/wins, gold and silver at the OG, Hart nomination, etc.

Starting goalies in the NHL just aren't 33-34-35+ years old. Only exceptional players like Luongo and Miller can make it work (still, both have declined, especially Miller).

Andy is very likely on his last legs. Plus, he's hurt a lot. I really don't see how keeping him is the safe move. Time to cash in on the value he has and get rid of the contract before it becomes a burden, if it isn't already.

 

[Micklebot]

Only two starting goalies in the NHL are older than Anderson (and are within 2 years): Miller and Luongo.

Both those guys have had much better careers than Anderson: many Vezina trophy nominations/wins, gold and silver at the OG, Hart nomination, etc.

Starting goalies in the NHL just aren't 33-34-35+ years old. Only exceptional players like Luongo and Miller can make it work (still, both have declined, especially Miller).

Andy is very likely on his last legs. Plus, he's hurt a lot. I really don't see how keeping him is the safe move. Time to cash in on the value he has and get rid of the contract before it becomes a burden, if it isn't already.

I think it's a bit cyclical. Guys like Backstrom, Thomas, Kiprusoff, Vokoon, Theodore and Brodeur were all starters at 32+ back in 2012, we've just seen a surge in young goalies pushing out some of the older guys. It's also worth noting that Anderson is only a year older than Hiller, Lundqvist, and Rinne, and two years older than Niemi and Lehtonen. He's not alone in his age range.

The reason holding onto him is safer is simple. We don't have a reasonable alternative. Hammond is far too unproven, and Lehner simply hasn't gotten the job done.

 

[bert]

Trade Lehner to Edmonton for Pittsburghs first. Use the trade as leverage as an insentive to sign O'connor and let him develop properly in the AHL for 2 or 3 seasons into his mid 20's like Lehner should have.

Lehner needs to play and this team is too competitive right now to go through the growing pains. Even Rask spent significant time in the AHL. Unless its a generational talent like Price they all need more time to develop.

 

[MakeOttawaGreatAgain]

We should trade all 3 for Eberle and Hall

 

[LynxBud]

The way I see it is.. I don't believe Andy could get the job done. He's getting up there in age and seems to be pretty injury prone. One season he'll be amazing, next one will be a total stinker.

Lehner and Hammond have both shown flashes of brilliance. Whether or not either of them could become our #1 goalie remains to be seen. I think I'd much rather see how things play out with the two of them than keep Anderson around for another couple years before he's done anyway.

Seems like we were already in this position before and we chose to dump Bishop.. look how that's played out. This time I'd like to run with the younger goalie tandem.

As people have pointed out, goaltending is a young man's game in today's NHL.

*Whoever we do ship off, I just hope it's to the west where it won't come back to bite us.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

Only two starting goalies in the NHL are older than Anderson (and are within 2 years): Miller and Luongo.

Both those guys have had much better careers than Anderson: many Vezina trophy nominations/wins, gold and silver at the OG, Hart nomination, etc.

Starting goalies in the NHL just aren't 33-34-35+ years old. Only exceptional players like Luongo and Miller can make it work (still, both have declined, especially Miller).

Andy is very likely on his last legs. Plus, he's hurt a lot. I really don't see how keeping him is the safe move. Time to cash in on the value he has and get rid of the contract before it becomes a burden, if it isn't already.

I don't think anyone believes that Anderson is a long term solution. He's effectively the guy you keep til another goalie takes his spot permanently. Then he either stays as an effective back-up (like Backstrom in Minnesota before he completely hit the wall this year) or you trade him. The question is do the Sens think either Hammond or Lehner will usurp him because I don't think the team wants to take the risk of running with Hammond and Lehner and have a) Hammond potentially become what his stats were in the AHL or b) have Lehner succumb to the pressure of being a #1 goalie at his age.

Whatever they do will involve some risk, but it's a matter of what risk they want to take on.

Since I'm not a betting man, that's why I like the idea of starting the year with 3 goalies. They did it before with Bishop, Lehner, and Anderson. Why can't they figure out a way to do it again? Apart from the obvious contract/money issues of course.

 

[Micklebot]

The way I see it is.. I don't believe Andy could get the job done. He's getting up there in age and seems to be pretty injury prone. One season he'll be amazing, next one will be a total stinker.

Lehner and Hammond have both shown flashes of brilliance. Whether or not either of them could become our #1 goalie remains to be seen. I think I'd much rather see how things play out with the two of them than keep Anderson around for another couple years before he's done anyway.

Seems like we were already in this position before and we chose to dump Bishop.. look how that's played out. This time I'd like to run with the younger goalie tandem.

As people have pointed out, goaltending is a young man's game in today's NHL.

We can look back a few years to just prior to acquiring Anderson to see what happens to ok teams with piss poor goaltending. Coles notes version; they really suck.

Having proven goaltending is a requirement for any team looking to challenge for a playoff spot. So, if we're ok with tanking, go ahead and roll the dice. it's win-win, either we get a good draft pick or our young goalie proves he can carry the load. But if a losing season isn't an option, and we wish to continue to show progression, we need strong goaltending.

 

[Caeldan]

Seriously people... 33 is not 'getting up there in age' for a goalie.
That whole 30-35 range is basically when they're at their prime.

Rinne, Lundqvist, Hiller, Crawford, Fleury, Miller, Luongo, Ward, Howard, Elliot, Halak...

Pure butterfly (Profly/Francois Allaire style) goalies tend to flame out by about 37/38 because of the wear and tear associated... but the more hybrid goalies like Brodeur tend to last a few years longer.

I'd put Anderson closer to a hybrid than a profly. He's got a few more years in the tank.

And really... having to struggle through 4 years of Lehner figuring out how to play in the NHL would be terrible.

 

[bert]

The way I see it is.. I don't believe Andy could get the job done. He's getting up there in age and seems to be pretty injury prone. One season he'll be amazing, next one will be a total stinker.

Lehner and Hammond have both shown flashes of brilliance. Whether or not either of them could become our #1 goalie remains to be seen. I think I'd much rather see how things play out with the two of them than keep Anderson around for another couple years before he's done anyway.

Seems like we were already in this position before and we chose to dump Bishop.. look how that's played out. This time I'd like to run with the younger goalie tandem.

As people have pointed out, goaltending is a young man's game in today's NHL.

*Whoever we do ship off, I just hope it's to the west where it won't come back to bite us.

Goaltending is the opposite of a young mans game actually simply look around at all the starters. Anderson is the only proven number 1 this team has. Its not his fault the team doesnt show up when he is in nets.

If they played the same way they did infront of him as hammond the results would have been very similar. Look what happened to Hammond against NYR when there was no defense played.

 

[bert]

Seriously people... 33 is not 'getting up there in age' for a goalie.
That whole 30-35 range is basically when they're at their prime.

Rinne, Lundqvist, Hiller, Crawford, Fleury, Miller, Luongo, Ward, Howard, Elliot, Halak...

Pure butterfly (Profly/Francois Allaire style) goalies tend to flame out by about 37/38 because of the wear and tear associated... but the more hybrid goalies like Brodeur tend to last a few years longer.

I'd put Anderson closer to a hybrid than a profly. He's got a few more years in the tank.

And really... having to struggle through 4 years of Lehner figuring out how to play in the NHL would be terrible.

Thank goodness someone gets it.

I agree going through Lehners growing pains right now where this team is, is not what I want to go through he needs to play.

 

[Super Cake]

Keep Anderson and Lehner.

Let Hammond walk.

This is most likely what is going to happen.

 

[tony d]

Option 3 for me.

 

[LynxBud]

Goaltending is the opposite of a young mans game actually simply look around at all the starters. Anderson is the only proven number 1 this team has. Its not his fault the team doesnt show up when he is in nets.

If they played the same way they did infront of him as hammond the results would have been very similar. Look what happened to Hammond against NYR when there was no defense played.

You do realise I'm not just referring to rookies, right? Personally I think goalies are in their prime in their mid to late 20s. Through their 30s, the first thing they begin to lose is their speed and reflexes which is why the vast majority of starting goaltenders are in their 20s. Least that's what I think.

Other players can rely on hockey IQ and strength to play until they're 40, but it's just not the same for goaltenders. Just my opinion, though. Could be wrong.

Regardless, I'd rather go with Hammond and Lehner. I love Andy, but it is what it is.

As far as growing pains go, I couldn't care less. I enjoyed this awesome run as much as anyone, but now that things are cooling off.. I'm realising all we accomplished was screwing ourselves out of a quality draft pick. I won't look back on this run anymore fondly than Leafs fans do on theirs. Not gonna sugar coat it to sound more positive.

My favourite memories are ones like the '07 finals or beating Montreal. Real accomplishments, IMO.

 

[guyzeur]

My opinions:

Why would O'Connor or Hammond sign cheap/2 way contracts with the Sens?

Why are we going to loose Hammond as a UFA now? We have control over Hammond right now and I believe Murray will sign him after the season. Depending how Hammond will play till the end of the season will determine if we will keep him or one of Anderson/Lehner.

I believe the Anderson/Lehner duo is viable only until December 2015. Lehner wants to play, Anderson should play. Regardless of Hammond, one of those two will be traded next year.

Hammond would be very happy to be the backup of either one:

Based on the short sample size we've seen, he would be a better backup (and teammate?) than Lehner because he would have no issue accepting the backup role. *

*Same as Lehner, if we keep playing Hoffman on the 4th line, we may as well trade him for a better asset.

Those are the risks and rewards of trading or keeping highly touted prospects. Will Lehner become Cowen?

 

[Tremblay31]

Sign Matt O'Connor, and trade one of Lehner or Anderson.

Anderson isn't very reliable (health wise), and we still don't really know what we have in Lehner.

Hammond has show us that this team can win with decent goaltending, so my gut says you trade Andy and hope one of Lehner, O'Connor or Hammond are legit.

By the time the team is able to contend, Andy will be at the twilight of his career.

could be the best plan !

 

[guyzeur]

could be the best plan !

We're a top 4 D away from being a contender IMO. I think we have the prospects to fill the bottom 6 D from within.

Kids will have more experience next year; Coach is settled for the next little while.

 

[krapsik]

We're a top 4 D away from being a contender IMO. I think we have the prospects to fill the bottom 6 D from within.

Kids will have more experience next year; Coach is settled for the next little while.

Dont know about contender, very good team. But if we ad to that D legit top 6 forward, then we could be very close to contender.

 

[Caeldan]

You do realise I'm not just referring to rookies, right? Personally I think goalies are in their prime in their mid to late 20s. Through their 30s, the first thing they begin to lose is their speed and reflexes which is why the vast majority of starting goaltenders are in their 20s. Least that's what I think.

Other players can rely on hockey IQ and strength to play until they're 40, but it's just not the same for goaltenders. Just my opinion, though. Could be wrong.

Regardless, I'd rather go with Hammond and Lehner. I love Andy, but it is what it is.

As far as growing pains go, I couldn't care less. I enjoyed this awesome run as much as anyone, but now that things are cooling off.. I'm realising all we accomplished was screwing ourselves out of a quality draft pick. I won't look back on this run anymore fondly than Leafs fans do on theirs. Not gonna sugar coat it to sound more positive.

My favourite memories are ones like the '07 finals or beating Montreal. Real accomplishments, IMO.

Couple points:
1: The 'vast' majority of starting goalies are not in their 20s. In fact, if anything the 'vast' majority of starting goalies who are on a playoff capable team are in their early/mid 30s as I pointed out earlier.
2: Hockey IQ is extremely important for a goaltender and will cover for reflexes for a while. Goaltending is about being in position first, reflexes are just there to cover for the unexpected tip or ridiculously crazy move that actually works. The more in position you are to start with, the less the reflexes need to cover for the unexpected. If anything, a young goalie relying on reflexes alone will get chased out of the league a lot sooner than a strong positional goaltender - just because they're easier to exploit. Look at Anaheim as an example... Andersen is their #1 because he's just technically sound. Gibson's the next true starter for them, but they need him to smarten up first and not just rely on athleticism and reflexes.

The ideal situation would be that we can get O'Connor to sign here, to provide us with options. Who knows, maybe we overvalue Lehner and could actually get him assigned to Bingo at the start of next season. Anderson/Hammond in the NHL, Lehner/O'Connor in Bingo would be a sweet scenario.

 

[aragorn]

I don't think we'd be able to trade Hammond. Far more likely we just let him walk in FA. I think that's the prudent move.

They may be able to trade his rights at the draft for a late pick if someone wants him bad enough. Personally, I'd offer him a two way contract to be the #1 goalie in Bingo with the knowledge that we have two goalies, not one, that are fragile & can go down at any moment & he will get to play in Ottawa again earning an NHL contract with a moderate raise & maybe a 2 yr term which would take him to the end of Anderson's contract.

Second, if either of our Ottawa goalies again have a crappy season then BM will look to trade one of them next season & again Hammond would be given another opportunity to come back to Ottawa in a backup role or to take the #1 away from whoever is left. Third, if we can't trade the goalie who sucks we will buy them out at the end of the yr & Hammond will still have his NHL opportunity. Maybe he stays with the organization who gave him his opportunity in the NHL & waits for another break rather than go somewhere where they don't know him & may have unreal expectations of him & be disappointed in what they get.

 

[Sens Rule]

I just don't want Lehner. I think he is a flake and won't ever mentally get it.

Hammond might not have his size or natural ability...but his attitude and ability to seemingly not get high or low despite tremendous pressure seems to really help this team.

I don't care if Lehner does get it in a few years and become a top starter. That is not important. We are in a position to contend and having a goalie who is inconsistent and not ready is a recipe to lose a bunch of points we need in the season. You can't throw away points.

Kinda like Cowen. I like the package he might bring at some point if he ever gets it, but he is paid the big bucks and we can't have an unreliable guy around forever not contributing positively.

I don't care if he ends up being great in 3 years.

I don't care if we traded Bishop. We had 3 goalies and needed to move 1 of them.

I find so many want to wait forever on prospects/young guys and are so upset at them maybe someday being great. You make a trade for a reason, usually a reason that is short or medium term. You can't worry that much about maybe looking bad 3-4 years from now.

If there was no cap and no waivers and no roster limit and our owner had infinite money we could be like the 1970's Canadiens and have great players in the minors or sitting in the pressbox. We could have 3 goalies making NHL money.

That is mot the case and right now Lehner is our 3rd best goalie and very likely costs more then Hammond would to pay the next year or two. If Lehner gets his head together and becomes great... I will cheer for him. I kinda doubt he will. I kinda think he doesn't even really like hockey... He is just really good at it. Kinda like Alexandre Daigle was. I feel... (Just my gut feeling and hearing Lehner talk a lot) he doesn't really follow hockey. He has been living his dad's crazy dream and he really would rather not be a pro athlete. But he is committed to it and earning ridiculous money. Which makes him different then the vast majority of NHLers who are living their dream. Not saying he won't try hard, train hard etc. I just think this is not his dream really. And if that is the case deep down it will be hard for him to ever really be a great goalie.

 

[StefanW]

Considering neither Lehner or Hammond have a big body of work that gives me confidence that they will be the guy moving forward, I definitely prefer to keep Andy in the mix. Lehner has more trade value than Hammond will, but there is a reason for that.

I don't know what the organization will do about goaltending this summer. What I do know as an absolute fact is that if the goalie who is moved out has even the tiniest degree of success somewhere else this board will become unbearable for a while.

 

[ChocolateLeclaire]

I just don't want Lehner. I think he is a flake and won't ever mentally get it.

Hammond might not have his size or natural ability...but his attitude and ability to seemingly not get high or low despite tremendous pressure seems to really help this team.

I don't care if Lehner does get it in a few years and become a top starter. That is not important. We are in a position to contend and having a goalie who is inconsistent and not ready is a recipe to lose a bunch of points we need in the season. You can't throw away points.

Kinda like Cowen. I like the package he might bring at some point if he ever gets it, but he is paid the big bucks and we can't have an unreliable guy around forever not contributing positively.

I don't care if he ends up being great in 3 years.

I don't care if we traded Bishop. We had 3 goalies and needed to move 1 of them.

I find so many want to wait forever on prospects/young guys and are so upset at them maybe someday being great. You make a trade for a reason, usually a reason that is short or medium term. You can't worry that much about maybe looking bad 3-4 years from now.

If there was no cap and no waivers and no roster limit and our owner had infinite money we could be like the 1970's Canadiens and have great players in the minors or sitting in the pressbox. We could have 3 goalies making NHL money.

That is mot the case and right now Lehner is our 3rd best goalie and very likely costs more then Hammond would to pay the next year or two. If Lehner gets his head together and becomes great... I will cheer for him. I kinda doubt he will. I kinda think he doesn't even really like hockey... He is just really good at it. Kinda like Alexandre Daigle was. I feel... (Just my gut feeling and hearing Lehner talk a lot) he doesn't really follow hockey. He has been living his dad's crazy dream and he really would rather not be a pro athlete. But he is committed to it and earning ridiculous money. Which makes him different then the vast majority of NHLers who are living their dream. Not saying he won't try hard, train hard etc. I just think this is not his dream really. And if that is the case deep down it will be hard for him to ever really be a great goalie.

Come on now...this is as absurd as calling Anderson "mentally fragile" or a "weirdo". A flake can't make it this far into a professional career, let alone win a Calder Cup in his rookie year and win the MVP. "Flakes" usually get weeded out at the lower levels because there's intense pressure in junior hockey that would cause that flakiness to come out.

Lehner has his shortcomings, and mental focus is one of them, but it's not because he's a flake.

 

[Sens Rule]

Come on now...this is as absurd as calling Anderson "mentally fragile" or a "weirdo". A flake can't make it this far into a professional career, let alone win a Calder Cup in his rookie year and win the MVP. "Flakes" usually get weeded out at the lower levels because there's intense pressure in junior hockey that would cause that flakiness to come out.

Lehner has his shortcomings, and mental focus is one of them, but it's not because he's a flake.

There are a ton of pro athletes (especially goalies) that are flakes. It can work for or against you. Tim Thomas is a full out right wing nutbar. He also was money. Emery is a bit of a nutter. Who wants to fight Andrew Peters? And smiles like a freak doing it?

I think Lehner really, really loses mental focus within games. He can be great and then not. He lets in goals to start a game and he is usually done for that game. Anderson or Hammond can play poorly, let in a few goals and then refocus.

Heck I don't hate Lehner. He is decent. We fell ass backwards into having 3 goalies and 2 of them are a lot less mentally fragile then Lehner.

I guess this season has really made me appreciate the parity in
This league and how close the margins are in each game and how you close you can both be to a contender or not making the playoffs.

Lehner worries me. I don't think he is near growing up as an NHL player. His up and downs the last few years worry me. You throw away only a couple of games a year and it is huge. I am seeing how crazy important a backup playing 20-35 games is. He is close to being one of your top key players. He is pretty much as important as anything but your top pairing D and the starting goalie. More important even then your top forward.

I don't care if when Lehner is 28 or 29 he could be a lot better then Hammond. Hammond has no nerves. He just plays and the team likes him and plays for him somehow. To end a season on this kind of run and then not keep Hammond around seems crazy.

To me Anderson is a proven good NHL goalie. He is what he is and he is able to win you games and not lose you them. Despite Hammond being here a couple of months and Lehner here a couple of years.. I just believe in Hammond more. It is a gamble obviously. I get liking Lehner more. I don't care who is better in 3 or 5 years. I care who is better in October, Nov, Dec next year.

 

[bert]

I just don't want Lehner. I think he is a flake and won't ever mentally get it.

Hammond might not have his size or natural ability...but his attitude and ability to seemingly not get high or low despite tremendous pressure seems to really help this team.

I don't care if Lehner does get it in a few years and become a top starter. That is not important. We are in a position to contend and having a goalie who is inconsistent and not ready is a recipe to lose a bunch of points we need in the season. You can't throw away points.

Kinda like Cowen. I like the package he might bring at some point if he ever gets it, but he is paid the big bucks and we can't have an unreliable guy around forever not contributing positively.

I don't care if he ends up being great in 3 years.

I don't care if we traded Bishop. We had 3 goalies and needed to move 1 of them.

I find so many want to wait forever on prospects/young guys and are so upset at them maybe someday being great. You make a trade for a reason, usually a reason that is short or medium term. You can't worry that much about maybe looking bad 3-4 years from now.

If there was no cap and no waivers and no roster limit and our owner had infinite money we could be like the 1970's Canadiens and have great players in the minors or sitting in the pressbox. We could have 3 goalies making NHL money.

That is mot the case and right now Lehner is our 3rd best goalie and very likely costs more then Hammond would to pay the next year or two. If Lehner gets his head together and becomes great... I will cheer for him. I kinda doubt he will. I kinda think he doesn't even really like hockey... He is just really good at it. Kinda like Alexandre Daigle was. I feel... (Just my gut feeling and hearing Lehner talk a lot) he doesn't really follow hockey. He has been living his dad's crazy dream and he really would rather not be a pro athlete. But he is committed to it and earning ridiculous money. Which makes him different then the vast majority of NHLers who are living their dream. Not saying he won't try hard, train hard etc. I just think this is not his dream really. And if that is the case deep down it will be hard for him to ever really be a great goalie.

I agree with all of this, Lehner also probably holds the most value. Hammond the least, asset management says to move Lehner.

You do realise I'm not just referring to rookies, right? Personally I think goalies are in their prime in their mid to late 20s. Through their 30s, the first thing they begin to lose is their speed and reflexes which is why the vast majority of starting goaltenders are in their 20s. Least that's what I think.

Other players can rely on hockey IQ and strength to play until they're 40, but it's just not the same for goaltenders. Just my opinion, though. Could be wrong.

Regardless, I'd rather go with Hammond and Lehner. I love Andy, but it is what it is.

As far as growing pains go, I couldn't care less. I enjoyed this awesome run as much as anyone, but now that things are cooling off.. I'm realising all we accomplished was screwing ourselves out of a quality draft pick. I won't look back on this run anymore fondly than Leafs fans do on theirs. Not gonna sugar coat it to sound more positive.

My favourite memories are ones like the '07 finals or beating Montreal. Real accomplishments, IMO.

Well you contradicted yourself. You said its a young mans game...

Goalies peak at around 30 but generally play at a high level from 26/27 to 35. A forward peaks at 20 to 30 thats a young mans game. I have heard people discuss allowing goaltenders to play at 21 or 22 in major JR just because the development process is slower.