Speculation: What to do with Kyle Turris

[maplepred]

Turris has obviously been super underwhelming. A lot of talk that Duchene is going to sign here since he loves Nashville. Turris gets $6 mill a season which is ridiculous for a fourth line centre (as he has played anyhow).

What should we do with him??

I think he needs to go, no matter what IMO, whether we sign Duchene or not. If we rely on him as a second line centre again we will not be winning a cup once again. Some say maybe he gets his act together this offseason but I just do not see it, he was not exactly great for us the prior season when we acquired him either. I personally think Duchene signs here regardless and plays second line centre for Granlund and possibly someone we trade Subban for. That would give us a deadly top 6 forwards, which we have never had really, its always been top 4 amazing defense which has not gotten us a cup to date.

So trade Subban for top 6 winger. That should not be hard. Moving Turris may prove to be difficult for getting any kind of value out of him. We may even have to include someone with him to get anything back. Or do something like Turris for a 3rd??

This should be an interesting offseason, Poile has decisions to make, and one of the biggest is what the heck to do with Turris.

Click to read more...

 

[LCPreds]

If it is true that Turris cannot be successful then you do not trade Subban for a top 6 winger unless you replace Turris.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I'd trade Turris for a 3rd if that deal was on the table. Right now, before knowing if we could land Duchene or not.

Bottom line, my opinion as scattered about in the other threads, is that I just don't see Turris as the "answer" for the next 5 years. Not as 2C on a contender, not as 2C on a contender which doesn't have a "superstar" 1C ahead of him, anyway. We need our 2nd line to be a real threat. Even if he bounces back to 20ish goals or 50ish points, he's a bit weak from anything I've seen. I think we can do better for $6M of cap space. The value of the cap space he represents outweighs any concern I'd have about getting anything back in a trade for him.

Trading him now is a big gamble, of course. Because maybe we can't get Duchene, and maybe we can't get anybody else either - or at least nobody very different from Turris (e.g. Kevin Hayes - similar, but what's the point in chasing him down as a UFA and signing him to the kind of UFA contract it would take if he's not really any different than Turris?) If we can't get Duchene, keeping Turris might turn out to have been the best fallback option we had. So sure, my approach would be a little foolhardy. Or daring. Or unnecessarily reckless. Or bold and visionary. Take it as you will.

I'm inclined to be aggressive about trying to improve the team, but it's not my money and I never sat across the table from Kyle Turris and shook his hand and promised him $36M. So it's not like I really expect the Preds to follow my approach, really. I fully expect Turris back in the lineup next season. And that's like 99% confidence, so no matter how many electrons I recycle on this topic, it's not like I really expect anything to come of it.

 

[Predsanddead24]

The real question to me is what do you do if you can't acquire Duchene, which I personally don't think is going to happen.

 

[Gh24]

I believe he's gonna have a bounce back season, but I don't think the team should rely on that by no means. If Duchene doesn't sign with us, then we absolutely need to get some offensive help via free agency or trading. If Duchene signs here, all we need to do is clear some cap space and whoever it is, I don't care really. I mean I do, but don't wanna go there again.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

The real question to me is what do you do if you can't acquire Duchene, which I personally don't think is going to happen.

List of UFA centers/semi-centers who might be or might once have been 2C-capable:
Matt Duchene
Joe Pavelski
Jason Spezza
Joe Thornton
Kevin Hayes
Brock Nelson
Derick Brassard
... is that it? It's not a long list. I don't think anybody is expecting Pavelski or Thornton to go anywhere after this playoff run they've had. And they're older stopgaps anyway. Spezza has declined too far, too far to even consider as a 1-year stopgap. Brassard isn't good enough. It's really only Hayes and seeing what the Isles do with Nelson/Lee left on the list...? I don't see either of those solutions being enough of an upgrade on Turris that you wade into the FA Frenzy on July 1st slinging around enough $$$ to try to catch one of those guys instead as your go-to backup plan.

So I think basically it's Duchene or bust on the UFA front.

A lot of the trades we've been flinging around involving Subban/Ellis are more for wingers instead of centers. Bottom line is teams don't really like to trade centers. It's rarely a position where teams have a quality surplus. Hence I guess why we've seen the trades we have and the prices we paid already to get Johansen and Turris. I guess show me the 2C upgrade who might be available in a trade? Nugent-Hopkins since Edmonton wants D? Any other options? Even RNH is a relatively mild step up from Turris and is that increment worth a top-4 D? Voracek has been mentioned as a candidate - and I've been suspicious at how readily Flyers fans agree to moving him. Malkin! Anyway, a big trade could be an option, but those are awfully hard to predict and harder still to rely on.

No, to me the default fallback might be more along the lines of something internal. If we traded Turris, aiming for Duchene, but missed Duchene too, then I'm thinking we most likely have to explore how we can move our parts around internally to make up for not having the ideal 2C. Granlund, Sissons, Jarnkrok, Bonino... hope a committee approach could tide us over until we found another way to spend the cap space freed up by moving Turris. Pitlick might have been moved to C in his last college season but the consensus thinking is he goes back to wing as a pro? Anyway, pretty sure we don't have a prospect option to slide in there as of yet. This would be opening up some new questions with the lineup next year. But it might not be a huge step down from Turris either. Not any step down at all from his miserable 2018-19 season, of course. It could work out "barely adequately" or not at all. Imagine you move Granlund to center and throws him all off-kilter heading to free agency. I'd probably be grudgingly comfortable taking this approach as my backup plan - but I'd at least want to have some tangible belief that nabbing Duchene was a real possibility before I committed to rolling the dice with this as my backup plan. As a fan, everything is possible! As a GM I'd need a little more tangible evidence.

 

[LCPreds]

I do think the roster needs a lot less tinkering than my emotion led me to believe at the end of the Dallas series. Fully expect Turris to make his money next year whether it's in Nashville or elsewhere. Also fully expect to read a lot of "Oh now Turris is playing well so it must be the system" if we trade him. Will certainly be some entertaining drama.

 

[Gh24]

Why would we trade Turris before we know if we can land Duchene or not? We can exceed the cap by 10% during summer. Poile could just hold on to everyone, have deals in place and wait until the cap is actually set. Or he could have those deals in place for when he gets Duchene to sign and only then move whatever necessary players. Right?

 

[LOUISVILLE ICE CARDS]

I don’t see us trading Turris after just one bad season. If it is back to back bad season then we could consider it. The really question is what if Duchene doesn’t come here. We would have basically sold low on a player for nothing after one bad season

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Can we add one of these threads for our $8 million a year center (14th highest in the league) who was 35th in center scoring this year?

Our deadline acquisition winger that scored at a 25 point pace with us?

Our $9 million and $6 million dollar "elite" defensemen that mostly screwed the pooch this past year? (Nevermind, we have enough of those)

Our sparkplug "heart and soul" player whose legal and off-ice issues were probably a lingering distraction to the team and led to him missing half the season?

"Soft-as-butter" Calle with his ever-underwhelming offensive contributions and penchant for being unable to avoid momentum changing hits?

Our coaching staff (all coming back for one more round!)?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Why would we trade Turris before we know if we can land Duchene or not? We can exceed the cap by 10% during summer. Poile could just hold on to everyone, have deals in place and wait until the cap is actually set. Or he could have those deals in place for when he gets Duchene to sign and only then move whatever necessary players. Right?

After July 1st a lot of teams will have filled up their cap space and won't have room for Turris anymore. Maybe. Or they'll know how desperate we are to move him and instead of getting a 3rd ask us to give up a 3rd or retain salary to dump him? Maybe. I don't know - it's fair game to imagine pros and cons both ways. If I thought Turris as Plan B was notably better than our Plan C, I'd probably be a little more cautious.

 

[Soundgarden]

I don’t see us trading Turris after just one bad season. If it is back to back bad season then we could consider it. The really question is what if Duchene doesn’t come here. We would have basically sold low on a player for nothing after one bad season

I think he has had back to back bad seasons. He had a great first 20 or so games where he and Fiala looked like a legitimate 2nd line, then he was invisible.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I think he has had back to back bad seasons. He had a great first 20 or so games where he and Fiala looked like a legitimate 2nd line, then he was invisible.

Was still at a 52-point pace over a whole season with us. It's lower-to-middle production for what you expect from him but not bad, per se.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I don’t see us trading Turris after just one bad season. If it is back to back bad season then we could consider it. The really question is what if Duchene doesn’t come here. We would have basically sold low on a player for nothing after one bad season

I wouldn't mind calling it two bad seasons already. Check out these stats lines:

GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	TOI/G	PP Pts	S	Hit	GvA
65	13	29	42	+22	24	16:06	17	119	19	25
68	16	19	35	+20	12	15:53	4	105	36	10

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The top one is Turris, the second guy gets paid 1/3rd as much. Jarnkrok also took 519 faceoffs and was 51.7% to Turris taking 723 at 49.5%. Powerplay usage aside, these guys were basically equivalent.

Or how's about these lines from the most recent season:

GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	TOI/G	PP Pts	S	Hit	GvA
81	17	18	35	+27	18	16:18	3	118	24	40
75	15	15	30	+20	23	16:03	2	111	109	25

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Bonino and Sissons were 51.8% and 53.1% on faceoffs too.

I don't find that what Turris did in his previous season before the injury is really all that different than what any of these other guys might have done, PP scoring aside. And of course Turris vanished completely in the playoffs in 2018 too. That to me was really when he stepped into the abyss, pre-dating this season and whatever injury excuses might be attached.

His first regular season was ok-ish and his first playoff was abysmal. Then his whole second season was abysmal.

Do we think he can step up his performance to something more like his best Ottawa numbers? I don't know - are we going to play him 19:30 a game instead of 16 mins and put him on a line with Mark Stone? I'm guessing we aren't. In which case... I don't feel like we have a lot of reason to expect more from him than we've seen so far. And that isn't much different than our Plan C guys behind him.

If I wanted a soft C who doesn't really drive the play... he doesn't look that much different than Jarnkrok. And if Jarnkrok was on a 6x$6M contract he'd probably have a thread like this here too.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I wouldn't mind calling it two bad seasons already. Check out these stats lines:

GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	TOI/G	PP Pts	S	Hit	GvA
65	13	29	42	+22	24	16:06	17	119	19	25
68	16	19	35	+20	12	15:53	4	105	36	10

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The top one is Turris, the second guy gets paid 1/3rd as much. Jarnkrok also took 519 faceoffs and was 51.7% to Turris taking 723 at 49.5%. Powerplay usage aside, these guys were basically equivalent.

Or how's about these lines from the most recent season:

GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	TOI/G	PP Pts	S	Hit	GvA
81	17	18	35	+27	18	16:18	3	118	24	40
75	15	15	30	+20	23	16:03	2	111	109	25

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Bonino and Sissons were 51.8% and 53.1% on faceoffs too.

I don't find that what Turris did in his previous season before the injury is really all that different than what any of these other guys might have done, PP scoring aside. And of course Turris vanished completely in the playoffs in 2018 too. That to me was really when he stepped into the abyss, pre-dating this season and whatever injury excuses might be attached.

His first regular season was ok-ish and his first playoff was abysmal. Then his whole second season was abysmal.

Do we think he can step up his performance to something more like his best Ottawa numbers? I don't know - are we going to play him 19:30 a game instead of 16 mins and put him on a line with Mark Stone? I'm guessing we aren't. In which case... I don't feel like we have a lot of reason to expect more from him than we've seen so far. And that isn't much different than our Plan C guys behind him.

If I wanted a soft C who doesn't really drive the play... he doesn't look that much different than Jarnkrok. And if Jarnkrok was on a 6x$6M contract he'd probably have a thread like this here too.

I just don't see Jarnkrok, Sissons, or Bonino being capable of putting up a 51-point season short of them leeching off 1st line minutes and linemates for a season, and even then I'm skeptical. You can say Turris disappeared last post-season, but you can also say that about more than half the team--the Bonino/Sissons line, Forsberg and Joey being the exceptions.

 

[Gh24]

With roster of

Forsberg (6) - Johansen (8) - Arvidsson (4.25)
Tolvanen (0.9) - Turris (6) - Granlund (5.75)
Järnkrok (2) - Bonino (4.1) - Smith (4.25)
Grimaldi (1*) - Sissons (2.5*) - Watson (1.1)

Josi (4) - Subban (9)
Ekholm (3.75) - Ellis (6.25)
Hamhuis (1.25) - Fabbro (0.92)

Rinne (5)
Saros (1.5)

*Some numbers thrown there...

We stand at ~77.525M

What is the latest on next years cap? Can we call it 81.5M now and round our cap down to 77.5M?

We'd have ~4M to play with this 20 player roster. I suppose we can add another 1M for whoever is sitting at the bench, leaving us with 3M.

I have to admit, I thought we had more cap space. Perhaps I forgot to adjust all caphits (maybe I used old numbers for Sissons and Grimaldi) when I checked the situation last time. Awful lot on centers. I like Bonino, but I don't like that we're paying our 3C 4.1M for another two years.

Please correct me if I'm missing something

 

[Armourboy]

I think you are all hoping for something that isn't going to happen. The only hope you have that Turris gets moved is if Poile signs Duchene, and in that case it still may not be Turris that gets moved.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

turris gets moved if we sign duchene. if we don't, then i see turris staying.

ive been watching turris at the worlds whenever Canada is on NHL network (3 games I've watched) and this isn't just me trying to be typical me but he has been soft as ever during board battles. he just isn't an impact player. he will need granlund to really elevate his game on the wing (or some impact winger, nothing against my boy Craig smith) or it's going to be another long season of turris being the whipping boy and rightfully so.

you look at these teams in the playoffs (vegas should be in sharks spot) and it's pretty obvious to me that you have to have impact forwards up and down the lineup. we have JOFA and no one else. honestly even JOFA isn't all that.

if we go into next season with the same "depth" and second line of turris, granlund, smith, or hoping for tolvanen to be our savior we are in trouble.

it is absolutely paramount that we acquire forward help. signing duchene and trading turris then ellis or subban would be awesome.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

I think trading Turris is a pipe dream right now. You can blame injuries and perhaps that was a legitimate reason but with his contract I doubt teams are going to be willing to risk trading for him and hoping he bounces back.

 

[maplepred]

turris gets moved if we sign duchene. if we don't, then i see turris staying.

ive been watching turris at the worlds whenever Canada is on NHL network (3 games I've watched) and this isn't just me trying to be typical me but he has been soft as ever during board battles. he just isn't an impact player. he will need granlund to really elevate his game on the wing (or some impact winger, nothing against my boy Craig smith) or it's going to be another long season of turris being the whipping boy and rightfully so.

you look at these teams in the playoffs (vegas should be in sharks spot) and it's pretty obvious to me that you have to have impact forwards up and down the lineup. we have JOFA and no one else. honestly even JOFA isn't all that.

if we go into next season with the same "depth" and second line of turris, granlund, smith, or hoping for tolvanen to be our savior we are in trouble.

it is absolutely paramount that we acquire forward help. signing duchene and trading turris then ellis or subban would be awesome.

Do you think it’s possible since his injury he’s scared to battle now and has therefore lost a step?
Maybe he gets even worse.... he is no spring chicken.
I think if we sign duchene then turris HAS to go, even if we do not sign duchene I feel like sissons is a better option at second line centre than turris and a younger option as well.
Sissons is very consistent and was on pace for almost 20 goals last season, imagine him playing with granlund and tolvy?

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I just don't see Jarnkrok, Sissons, or Bonino being capable of putting up a 51-point season short of them leeching off 1st line minutes and linemates for a season, and even then I'm skeptical. You can say Turris disappeared last post-season, but you can also say that about more than half the team--the Bonino/Sissons line, Forsberg and Joey being the exceptions.

I guess I just don't see Turris putting up a 51-point season either short of leeching off basically the same things it would take those guys to do it. Give Jarnkrok a season with Granlund and Smith, give him 2nd unit PP time, and he probably scrapes together the same points Turris would. And our 2nd line will suck. And Jarnkrok will probably get killed. And all the same holds equally having Turris in that spot. Our scouts just missed the boat figuring that out because he was already leeching 1st line minutes off 1st line players in Ottawa and they got fooled.

And sure, lots of other players disappeared in each of the last two post-seasons. I'm not against trading some of them either. I'm not sure any of them have quite the same resume of disappearing plus contract issue plus potential redundancy in the lineup that Turris does. But whatever their ills, that doesn't have any bearing on Turris. On a case by case basis I'd be equally ready to discuss moving them and seeking an upgrade too if there are good arguments for it. Wanting to trade Turris doesn't absolve anybody else of anything.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Do you think it’s possible since his injury he’s scared to battle now and has therefore lost a step?
Maybe he gets even worse.... he is no spring chicken.

He might have lost a step temporarily while his foot was still healing or something, but he seemed quick enough in the playoffs. Just ineffective. And I think he has always been scared to battle. Not a lot of players can go a full NHL season and get credited with just 10 hits. That's just who Turris is, nothing new on that front.

This is where it's just too bad we couldn't have picked up Stone at the deadline and signed him to that deal he got with Vegas. Or where it would be worth considering trading one of our RD for a higher impact winger to make up for that. Granlund - for all the Wild fans seemed to love him, he seems a little more on the "crafty" side than a guy who will be electrifying or dynamic or drive offense. That's IF he gets back in his groove with us. And he's no physical specimen either. Granlund and Turris together is crying out for a star-calibre winger to drive the line I'd say. Tolvanen isn't ready for that. Smith is a good soldier, but he's not at the level we'd need to carry that line.

Or where you think about permanently breaking up JOFA and trying to get one of those wingers to help carry Turris.

I think if we sign duchene then turris HAS to go, even if we do not sign duchene I feel like sissons is a better option at second line centre than turris and a younger option as well.
Sissons is very consistent and was on pace for almost 20 goals last season, imagine him playing with granlund and tolvy?

On a line with Granlund and Tolvanen I'd definitely rather have Sissons out there to battle and try to dig things out for those guys. Maybe that leaves something like Watson-Turris-Smith as another line. And Jarnkrok-Bonino-Grimaldi? I mean, this is really the problem. We don't have quite what we need for a legitimately threatening 2nd scoring line behind JOFA. Whether it's break up JOFA, or run 3 roughly equivalent-but-different lines behind them, it's not exactly the ideal setup.

Hence we have to chase Duchene and the trade options.

Hence we get back to the question of potentially needing to free up salary.

Hence we look askance at Turris and his $6M.

And hence we have this thread of course.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

I guess I just don't see Turris putting up a 51-point season either short of leeching off basically the same things it would take those guys to do it. Give Jarnkrok a season with Granlund and Smith, give him 2nd unit PP time, and he probably scrapes together the same points Turris would. And our 2nd line will suck. And Jarnkrok will probably get killed. And all the same holds equally having Turris in that spot. Our scouts just missed the boat figuring that out because he was already leeching 1st line minutes off 1st line players in Ottawa and they got fooled.

And sure, lots of other players disappeared in each of the last two post-seasons. I'm not against trading some of them either. I'm not sure any of them have quite the same resume of disappearing plus contract issue plus potential redundancy in the lineup that Turris does. But whatever their ills, that doesn't have any bearing on Turris. On a case by case basis I'd be equally ready to discuss moving them and seeking an upgrade too if there are good arguments for it. Wanting to trade Turris doesn't absolve anybody else of anything.

Turris put up 42 in 65 playing with Smith and Fiala, which puts him at a 52-53 point season (despite still playing "underwhelming" by some posters' standards). I find it hard to complain about him and his contract when $8 million Ryan is only putting up 54-64 playing with Arvy and Forsberg.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Turris put up 42 in 65 playing with Smith and Fiala, which puts him at a 52-53 point season (despite still playing "underwhelming" by some posters' standards). I find it hard to complain about him and his contract when $8 million Ryan is only putting up 54-64 playing with Arvy and Forsberg.

So I believe the solution to that is to start a Johansen thread and try to figure out ways to move his $8M and upgrade on him too, perhaps? Or do we just accept, ok, we don't have the #1C we'd ideally like, AND, we don't have the #2C we'd ideally like, and we don't have any good ideas how to upgrade either of them - or we don't believe that Poile would ever even try to move them after signing them as he did - so let's just not complain about anything. It's a valid option.

I would move Turris before Johansen. I wish our top line had stepped up in the playoffs too. But we don't have a lot of size in our top players, and Johansen does bring size, and I have seen him use it effectively in the past. At times. I like Johansen better than Turris in pretty much every aspect of the game, so I'm a little more focused on dumping Turris. But if there's a case to be made for going after a Duchene-Turris center combo and trading Johansen, I'm game to hear it.

Or if they are both only being dragged down by bad coaching, or a bad system, or a system that needs to be revamped anyway to shift focus from D to F, that's a valid argument too. I'm thinking that's more where the real world is going to push our focus - 6 weeks from now when the FA Frenzy dust has settled and every team is capped out, and we didn't sign Duchene and we still have Johansen/Turris up the middle - that's going to be a good time to shift gears and focus on this as our last practical hope. But in the meantime I've got those 6 weeks to dream of trades and FA signings instead, and that's a little more fun.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

So I believe the solution to that is to start a Johansen thread and try to figure out ways to move his $8M and upgrade on him too, perhaps? Or do we just accept, ok, we don't have the #1C we'd ideally like, AND, we don't have the #2C we'd ideally like, and we don't have any good ideas how to upgrade either of them - or we don't believe that Poile would ever even try to move them after signing them as he did - so let's just not complain about anything. It's a valid option.

I would move Turris before Johansen. I wish our top line had stepped up in the playoffs too. But we don't have a lot of size in our top players, and Johansen does bring size, and I have seen him use it effectively in the past. At times. I like Johansen better than Turris in pretty much every aspect of the game, so I'm a little more focused on dumping Turris. But if there's a case to be made for going after a Duchene-Turris center combo and trading Johansen, I'm game to hear it.

Or if they are both only being dragged down by bad coaching, or a bad system, or a system that needs to be revamped anyway to shift focus from D to F, that's a valid argument too. I'm thinking that's more where the real world is going to push our focus - 6 weeks from now when the FA Frenzy dust has settled and every team is capped out, and we didn't sign Duchene and we still have Johansen/Turris up the middle - that's going to be a good time to shift gears and focus on this as our last practical hope. But in the meantime I've got those 6 weeks to dream of trades and FA signings instead, and that's a little more fun.

Oh Lord no, we've got plenty of this going on as is without opening threads for all the deficient players.