What makes Erik Karlsson inferior to Niklas Lidstrom?

[Raccoon Jesus]

Probably because people value hockey much higher years ago than they do right now. The kid needs more respect and is already a tier or two ahead of Lidstrom. Would not be surprised if EK goes down as the best dman in history other than maybe Orr.

Prove it.

 

[ColdSteel2]

And a point on "nostalgia," which is it is such because you want to see it again and have not since then, not because you never saw what you thought you did and have a false recollection.

 

[NoMessi]

That and he had no standout physical skills either, not all that fast, shot was average at best. Just a smart player and boring.

I would say that he had one of the best shots i've ever seen by a defender. Crazy accurate and almost always got i through traffic.

This is the GWG in the olympic final 2006:

 

[x Tame Impala]

Maybe having Lidstrom on Calgary would have won you guys more cups.....

I'm not a Flames fan. The flames were just used as an example because they were the next closest team to draft a defenseman in the 3rd round of Lidstrom's draft before Lidstrom.

In terms of his legacy, sure, in terms of his level of play, presumably not. Did Bourque suddenly become a better player because he won a cup in Colorado? no.

No, Bourque's Cup win came at the end of his playing days and was a feather in the cap of an already illustrious career. It's possible to compare players on a case-by-case basis.

But I think our disagreement is mainly with the bolded. It's a significant achievement to be able to carry over your HoF level of play to the playoffs and win your team a Cup. It's not something to be ignored and/or written off with a pedantic "look at the team's they played on" argument.

If EK never wins a Cup there's a legitimate chance it'll be through no fault of his own and will not necessarily be a statement on his quality as a defenseman but that will still be a blemish on his amazing career and it will be rightfully used against him when comparing him to other defenseman with amazing careers that HAVE gone the extra step and won championships.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

That was the point. I don't know where this narrative came from that players from the past are better than current players. I bet Lidstrom would get undressed in his prime against someone like Gaudreau that watched all those moves and improved on them. It's almost like people don't believe in evolution. Go back and watch a movie from the 80's and watch a remake in 2017. It's not even comparable.

Yikes. The thread has reached a new low. Lidstrom, who had his career against NHL legends, would get roasted by Johnny Gaudreau...

 

[NoMessi]

This is the best way I could put it too. Every single time one of the greats would retire/leave we'd hear "Is this the year the Wings miss the playoffs?"

Yet it never happened, and we even won and a cup and went to the finals sans Yzerman, Feds, Shanny, Chelios etc.

The day Lidstrom retired, or if even argue his last season when he finally lost a step, you saw a dramatic decline in the play of the Wings.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1022663-pavel-datsyuk-and-the-nhls-midseason-award-winners

I can swear I saw NHL.com having him as the midseason favorite for the Norris in 2012. I cant find the article now though.

My point, he might have declined a bit, but still not past the point him being the favorite until the injuries that same spring.

 

[nbwingsfan]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1022663-pavel-datsyuk-and-the-nhls-midseason-award-winners

I can swear I saw NHL.com having him as the midseason favorite for the Norris in 2012. I cant find the article now though.

My point, he might have declined a bit, but still not past the point him being the favorite until the injuries that same spring.

"Bleached Report" can say what they want but you won't find a Wings fan who didn't see him loose a step that season. He was also only on pace for about 40pts which is very low for him

 

[WingsMJN2965]

FWIW, yes, he did lose a step in his final season. He was still every bit the smart player that he made a career being, but he was slow.

Remember watching more than once Toews burning him just by keeping his distance and blowing past him.

 

[GreatGonzo]

If basketball is not physical, then why is strength such a big asset for many basketball players?

Since when is strength a big asset? Those guys are already freakishly large human beings.

I just don't see pushing with some
Bumping here and there as "physical."

Again, because other posters are bringing Cups won into the equation which is a team accomplishment........

Yes, your right. But that's simply just part of why Lidstrom was so dominant. His individual success alone makes him superior....his team success is almost like a nice bonus.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

If basketball is not physical, then why is strength such a big asset for many basketball players?

I think you need to learn the difference between "Physical" and "Athletic".

 

[NoMessi]

That's completely false. Pronger was injured a lot, Niedermayer was a threat for like 3 seasons, one of which he won, and all the other elite defensemen such as Bourque, Chelios, Leetch, etc. were past their prime once Lidstrom began his. He dealt with Chara near the end of his prime and who else, Zubov and Blake? The pool of elite defensemen since 2010 is better and deeper. Keith, Weber, Hedman, Karlsson, Doughty, Burns, Subban, Suter, Pietrangelo, Letang, OEL, etc.

I would argue that most of those players are severly overrated. Letang, a personal favorite, are so stupid that he might one day be classified as brain dead and its a joke that he can belong in the top group. Yet he does because the competetion is weak.

 

[NoMessi]

"Bleached Report" can say what they want but you won't find a Wings fan who didn't see him loose a step that season. He was also only on pace for about 40pts which is very low for him

And you missed my point, he was still the front runner according to Bleached Report and more importantly NHL.com at the midseason awards and didn't drop out of the Norris race until his injuries during the spring. That is btw one of the two Norris Karlsson has won.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

That was the point. I don't know where this narrative came from that players from the past are better than current players. I bet Lidstrom would get undressed in his prime against someone like Gaudreau that watched all those moves and improved on them. It's almost like people don't believe in evolution. Go back and watch a movie from the 80's and watch a remake in 2017. It's not even comparable.

This may be my favorite all time post on hfboards.

Prime Lidstrom, a top 5 d-man all-time who retired only 5 years ago, would get schooled by Gaudreau because of evolution, because movie remakes.

 

[Jray42]

I don't understand. Erik Karlsson controls the game in such an amazing way. Granted I haven't watched lidstrom much, but Karlsson is so good at moving the puck . His skating is silky smooth as well. Lidstrom always seemed more subtle in the way he played, wasn't as flashy. I think Karlsson was better offensively. Not only that, it's so hard taking the puck from Karlsson. In a way, Karlsson greatest defense is his offense.

Well there's your answer

 

[Micklebot]

I'm not a Flames fan. The flames were just used as an example because they were the next closest team to draft a defenseman in the 3rd round of Lidstrom's draft before Lidstrom.



No, Bourque's Cup win came at the end of his playing days and was a feather in the cap of an already illustrious career. It's possible to compare players on a case-by-case basis.

But I think our disagreement is mainly with the bolded. It's a significant achievement to be able to carry over your HoF level of play to the playoffs and win your team a Cup. It's not something to be ignored and/or written off with a pedantic "look at the team's they played on" argument.

If EK never wins a Cup there's a legitimate chance it'll be through no fault of his own and will not necessarily be a statement on his quality as a defenseman but that will still be a blemish on his amazing career and it will be rightfully used against him when comparing him to other defenseman with amazing careers that HAVE gone the extra step and won championships.

It's a significant achievement to continue playing at that elite level or even step up your play come playoffs time. Karlsson does just that. Winning the cup is the result of the team as a whole, not one individual's performance. Pronger's playoff performance with the Oilers was the stuff of legends (a bit hyperbolic, but he was damn good) and he reproduced it in Philly. But, it was only in Anaheim where he was backed up with a loaded ducks team that he actually won the cup. Is Pronger a better Dman because he happened to play for the Ducks while Neidermayer was there and when Getz and Perry broke out on ELCs?

What I'm getting at is you can judge the level of play independent of whether or not they won the cup. Had Fernando Pisani scored a hatrick in game 7 against the Canes, or Cam Ward laid an egg, it wouldn't have changed Pronger's performance one bit. Winning the cup isn't what makes a players performance special because it's a product of the team.

 

[Mrb1p]

Im not the biggest fan of Lidstrom but Lidstrom was miles ahead defensively and he could run a team system like no other. While Lidstrom is the perfect system player, Karlsson is an awesome player that can create offense out of the blue, an ability that Lidstrom had, but not to the point Karlsson has... its still Lidstrom by a mile.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Is Pronger a better Dman because he happened to play for the Ducks while Neidermayer was there and when Getz and Perry broke out on ELCs?

Yes.

It's not the be all, end all, but yes a Cup win makes a great player even greater. I'll ask again, had Pronger not won that Cup would his career legacy still be the same.

 

[Micklebot]

Yes.

It's not the be all, end all, but yes a Cup win makes a great player even greater. I'll ask again, had Pronger not won that Cup would his career legacy still be the same.

It's not about legacy though, it's about level of play. Are you saying that Pronger's level of play would have been better if Pisani had scored a hatrick in the third period of the 06 cup final to win the game regardless of whether or not Pronger had anything to do with it, or was even on the ice? Of course it wouldn't.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Are you saying that Pronger's level of play would have been better if Pisani had scored a hatrick in the third period of the 06 cup final to win the game

The playoffs are a best of 7 series. They should not, and thankfully are not, judged by single "what if?" instances.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

That was the point. I don't know where this narrative came from that players from the past are better than current players. I bet Lidstrom would get undressed in his prime against someone like Gaudreau that watched all those moves and improved on them. It's almost like people don't believe in evolution. Go back and watch a movie from the 80's and watch a remake in 2017. It's not even comparable.

Laughably simple thought.

Watch the below clip of Lidstrom vs Kane. The quality sucks, but the slow mo starting at the 15 second mark illustrates things just fine. And that's during Lidstrom's final season by the way.

Apologies for not knowing how to embed a YouTube clip on the new site:



And you do realize that Lidstrom spent 10 years of practicing against Pavel Datsyuk, right?

He had no problems with Lindros, Crosby, Iginla, Kane, etc... But lookout Johnny Gaudreau.

 

[Beltv]

I'm not a Flames fan. The flames were just used as an example because they were the next closest team to draft a defenseman in the 3rd round of Lidstrom's draft before Lidstrom.

Oh, well either way..there is a chance he could have carried that team to the next level and made him into cup contenders and perennial playoff team through his career.

 

[joe dirte]

It's not about legacy though, it's about level of play. Are you saying that Pronger's level of play would have been better if Pisani had scored a hatrick in the third period of the 06 cup final to win the game regardless of whether or not Pronger had anything to do with it, or was even on the ice? Of course it wouldn't.

prongers play was far and away the number reason they got past they first 3 rounds.

talking about pisani scoring 3 goals to win the cup regardless of whether pronger had anything to do with it is silly. pronger was on the ice for 45 of the oilers 70 goals that year. if pisani scored 3 goals to the win the cup, pronger most certainly would have had something to do with it. it's the only conceivable way on earth it could have happened. and yes, that would have enhanced his legacy, because we would be talking about the cup that pronger won Edmonton right now.

 

[Micklebot]

prongers play was far and away the number reason they got past they first 3 rounds.

talking about pisani scoring 3 goals to win the cup regardless of whether pronger had anything to do with it is silly. pronger was on the ice for 45 of the oilers 70 goals that year. if pisani scored 3 goals to the win the cup, pronger most certainly would have had something to do with it. it's the only conceivable way on earth it could have happened. and yes, that would have enhanced his legacy, because we would be talking about the cup that pronger won Edmonton right now.

Funny enough, the oilers actually did score goals while Pronger wasn't on the ice, in fact, there were whole games he wasn't on the ice for a goal for and they still won . True story. Heck, he wasn't on the ice for the last 3 goals (out of 4 total) they scored to win game six.

Doesn't have to be Pisani, I just chose him because he happened to score the one goal for edmonton (which Pronger had nothing to do with btw since he was sitting on the bench at the time). So maybe Smyth scores goal 2 and Hemsky goal 3. It doesn't really matter. Point remains that winning that game wouldn't have changed Prongers performance.

And again, this isn't about legacy, it's about performance. Winning the cup changes one, but not the other. Perfomance is independent of the game results. You can be good and lose, terrible and win.

 

[Acoustic]

Basically, 13 pages later, Lidstrom was head and shoulders above obvious HoFers in Pronger and Neidermeyer, and ultimately, he was the BEST defensive defense man of his generation and ALSO the BEST offensive defensiveness of his generation.

Until you can say without a doubt that Karlsson is the best defensive defense man in the league, he simply doesn't compare to Lidstrom.

Also, win a Cup.

 

[Chimpradamus]

The difference between the two is Lidström had much better ice vision. Karlsson is better at performing it, with the puck, while Lidström could shut down so much by pure positioning.

Karlsson is an example for his teammates, Lidström was regarded as a dad playing hockey with the kids.