OT: What is your background in hockey knowledge when assessing players?

[GMofOilers]

Well growing up and playing a ton of high level hockey, didnt get to really watch any NHL hockey closely. Way to much time spent at the rink to watch, until NHL playoffs, then was a diehard fan.

Currently still play if beer league counts hahhaha, also spend my winters coaching minor hockey and developing kids these days. Love it, I used to prefer older ex peewee AA coaching but now my little one is 7 so I fell back to coaching that age. So much fun this year watching every single kid develop at a different pace. They change every time they hit the ice, some slower, some faster but all develop and I think thats what its all about.

I dont use analytics in hockey though. Way to many moving parts, teams. Its a game of inches at this level, and the whole game is based on time and space. There is none and mistakes are made. Humans play the game, not math.

 

[nabob]

I briefly took over the "Ask The Warrior" forum on here and renamed it Ask The Nabob. Therefor I am a professional analyst.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

Oh yeah... lots of video games too.

 

[gqmixmaster]

Oh yeah... lots of video games too.

my team was always the fat team (full of draisatl's)

 

[Ragss]

Well, I once traded Horcoff and Souray for Ovechkin in NHL 09 or 10--whenever the hell Souray was here--so I must know something.

 

[GrandLarseny]

Playing minor hockey since 12 yrs old. Got into it 'cuz of 06 playoff run. Really started getting in depth with hockey back in like 2008.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

I have 7 Rings, I think I know a thing or seven about winning.

 

[rboomercat90]

Memories.

Did you notice the toe drag?

 

[oilinblood]

No hockey experience here but damn I have been watching since knee high to a grasshopper.

I remember rolling around on the floor and getting up to change the channel for my pop to watch the Oilers in action back in the glory days. 37 now, born in 77. 83-84 was their first cup and while I no longer have any detailed memories of that time, the warm fussy feeling of the carpet and hearing all that cheering will stay with me forever.

I stuck with hockey avidly until the trap/clutch and grab/expansion years sucked the life from the game.

Came back in 2002 or so because of the office yahoo hockey pool. Reinvigorated my love of the game and opened my eyes to teams/players other than the Oilers.

Numerous hockey pools where I primarily finish in the top 3 (second this year) and a ton of watching various teams/players play the game has vastly sharpened my eye for gauging players values. Fantasy draft research is the difference between finishing 1-3 or in the bottom half.

And of course I have been an obsessed HF board and hockey blog follower for well over a decade as well. Hell I actually used to read the paper to get hockey insight going way back, before this silly thing called the internet took over.

To be honest, from things I have heard, actually playing the game yields very little insight into player evaluation. A lot of practise to hone instincts, muscle memory, and reading body language is far different than researching, stat crunching, or decades of analysing video.

I feel sad that you missed the hard working oilers teams that were led by doug weight.

When i was a kid, you could remove every players name badge, remove their numbers, and put them in blank jerseys...and i would know, depth dman, minor league call up, to all star hhof sniper...i would know exactly who they were from their skating, stick handling, and tendencies. I played the game competitively but my body just couldnt pack on the meat back in those days. Steroids WERE a choice, i didnt take part in (history of liver and kidney issues on both my mom and dads side made that choice easy for me). I know LOTS of players that go on one or two cycles during the off season. Id intake over four thousand calories a day during the off season, hit the gym religiously and gain a few lbs more of muscle that...my body would immediately eat when cardio training began again and the new season started.

I played forward but always respected defensemen. Forwards have to be extremely special for me to like...but i can appreciate more underrated and unnoticed dmen. I cant stand forwards that cant focus on the team game plan, and buy-in. I also tend to give most players the benefit of the doubt when their game is sub-par, because from experience i know how some games can be really conducive to your skills, and your lines abilities while ther opponents or coaches or games wont be as conducive. I love the playoffs for this reason; sometimes you know it will be the third line matchup that will win the series for you, or maybe its your centre depth, maybe its the forecheck and hammering the d for the extended series. That stuff, I LOVE...its knowing where youwill beat your opponent. I also understand its close to impossible to play healthy all the time and hockey players arent going to sit out if they can move/walk. So i bite my tongue if a guy isnt playing to his ability.


Now a days i cant watch hockey as much as i used to and i have a cousin who reminds me of how i was in the 90s, when i could tell every player by their stride, their body skating posture, the way they positioned their stick, the way they liked to recieve a pass....
I won a tonne of pools too

I should have focussed on learning poker though. I suck...and the chicks dig poker players more than my nerdy hockey pools. Most of all i just want to wear cool sun glasses at a poker table and beat a guy who looks just as cool...and is probably asian...so he has this triad, nerd, business elit mystery to him and i beat him and you dont know if he migt pull out a sword or start grabbing a calculator figuring out his losses...and then jessica biehl and jessica alba pop out of a hot tub of jelly in itty bitty bikinis and start wrestling over something...does it matter what? And they end up on the poker table and get it all gelled up and that chick from those dumb american version of battle royale movies...trouble with fire or whatever...she rips off her clothes and starts trying to break it up but...biehl and alba are tough girls so they like beat on this other girl...and then me and asian possible triad dude just light up smokes and watch and drink...andyeah...theres a dwarf in the background doing summersaults...its good...something catches fire off to one side in the distance...bikinis get torn off... Adriana lima is in a referee striped chemise and starts trying to get control of the fight... Eventually she just starts massaging which ever girl happens to be on top...tom jones enters in the background singing whats new ***** cat...he doesnt move but yet he does...he must be on wheels. As randomly as he enters...he exits. Baby corn drops from the sky, damn i love baby corn, like confetti and then a unicorn mounts a hippo and wanders by blocking the bikini battle momentarily... Then the table breaks and all the girls fall towards me and Lima now has hand cuffs and a police uniform hat...and that great chemise...and shes looking to discipline...you know? Those jessicas have been naughty, oh look shes got three sets of cuffs...but what will shedo with just three? Will she use two on one girl? Or Just one on each of the other three girls? And whats with the bull whip. That playing with fire chick actually alligns with Lima and Lima and her seem to be the Authoritah, as they move in to cuff and discipline the jessicas. Theres a sword fight happening in the background and my opponent i think ran out the balcony and jumped off the ledge...cant tell if he had a parachute...strange timeto base jump...but thanks for the privacy.... I reach down to the floor and grab some of the falling baby corn...its gonna be a good night. Like hst watching the bomber on the cieling in fear and loathing in las vegas...i want to see where this goes.

Ah...poker.

 

[Oscar Acosta]

I feel sad that you missed the hard working oilers teams that were led by doug weight. .

Totally, I was a kid in the 80s so I didn't appreciate the Gretzky dynasty years. But into the early 2000s there was always that team in Edmonton you could totally get behind. Underdogs all the way and they played their hearts out. Never once gave up and were known as the team you didn't want to play.

Even if you beat them in round 1 you were out in round 2 because the Oilers wore you down. I miss those days.

 

[oilinblood]

Totally, I was a kid in the 80s so I didn't appreciate the Gretzky dynasty years. But into the early 2000s there was always that team in Edmonton you could totally get behind. Underdogs all the way and they played their hearts out. Never once gave up and were known as the team you didn't want to play.

Even if you beat them in round 1 you were out in round 2 because the Oilers wore you down. I miss those days.

Considering i had an hst reference im surprised tats the only thing i wrote that you noticed


The team was never the same after weight left. Everything after 2001 Canada day... Sucked.

 

[bucks_oil]

I feel sad that you missed the hard working oilers teams that were led by doug weight.

When i was a kid, you could remove every players name badge, remove their numbers, and put them in blank jerseys...and i would know, depth dman, minor league call up, to all star hhof sniper...i would know exactly who they were from their skating, stick handling, and tendencies. I played the game competitively but my body just couldnt pack on the meat back in those days. Steroids WERE a choice, i didnt take part in (history of liver and kidney issues on both my mom and dads side made that choice easy for me). I know LOTS of players that go on one or two cycles during the off season. Id intake over four thousand calories a day during the off season, hit the gym religiously and gain a few lbs more of muscle that...my body would immediately eat when cardio training began again and the new season started.

I played forward but always respected defensemen. Forwards have to be extremely special for me to like...but i can appreciate more underrated and unnoticed dmen. I cant stand forwards that cant focus on the team game plan, and buy-in. I also tend to give most players the benefit of the doubt when their game is sub-par, because from experience i know how some games can be really conducive to your skills, and your lines abilities while ther opponents or coaches or games wont be as conducive. I love the playoffs for this reason; sometimes you know it will be the third line matchup that will win the series for you, or maybe its your centre depth, maybe its the forecheck and hammering the d for the extended series. That stuff, I LOVE...its knowing where youwill beat your opponent. I also understand its close to impossible to play healthy all the time and hockey players arent going to sit out if they can move/walk. So i bite my tongue if a guy isnt playing to his ability.


Now a days i cant watch hockey as much as i used to and i have a cousin who reminds me of how i was in the 90s, when i could tell every player by their stride, their body skating posture, the way they positioned their stick, the way they liked to recieve a pass....
I won a tonne of pools too

I should have focussed on learning poker though. I suck...and the chicks dig poker players more than my nerdy hockey pools. Most of all i just want to wear cool sun glasses at a poker table and beat a guy who looks just as cool...and is probably asian...so he has this triad, nerd, business elit mystery to him and i beat him and you dont know if he migt pull out a sword or start grabbing a calculator figuring out his losses...and then jessica biehl and jessica alba pop out of a hot tub of jelly in itty bitty bikinis and start wrestling over something...does it matter what? And they end up on the poker table and get it all gelled up and that chick from those dumb american version of battle royale movies...trouble with fire or whatever...she rips off her clothes and starts trying to break it up but...biehl and alba are tough girls so they like beat on this other girl...and then me and asian possible triad dude just light up smokes and watch and drink...andyeah...theres a dwarf in the background doing summersaults...its good...something catches fire off to one side in the distance...bikinis get torn off... Adriana lima is in a referee striped chemise and starts trying to get control of the fight... Eventually she just starts massaging which ever girl happens to be on top...tom jones enters in the background singing whats new ***** cat...he doesnt move but yet he does...he must be on wheels. As randomly as he enters...he exits. Baby corn drops from the sky, damn i love baby corn, like confetti and then a unicorn mounts a hippo and wanders by blocking the bikini battle momentarily... Then the table breaks and all the girls fall towards me and Lima now has hand cuffs and a police uniform hat...and that great chemise...and shes looking to discipline...you know? Those jessicas have been naughty, oh look shes got three sets of cuffs...but what will shedo with just three? Will she use two on one girl? Or Just one on each of the other three girls? And whats with the bull whip. That playing with fire chick actually alligns with Lima and Lima and her seem to be the Authoritah, as they move in to cuff and discipline the jessicas. Theres a sword fight happening in the background and my opponent i think ran out the balcony and jumped off the ledge...cant tell if he had a parachute...strange timeto base jump...but thanks for the privacy.... I reach down to the floor and grab some of the falling baby corn...its gonna be a good night. Like hst watching the bomber on the cieling in fear and loathing in las vegas...i want to see where this goes.

Ah...poker.

I nominate this for post of the year.... Gratuitous Irreverence and hilarious!

As for the bolded... 100% agree. I've always been one to forgive physical errors .... But dammit, at least TRY to be a good teammate and focus on the teams' play, not the fact that you just missed your third breakaway and it's time to slam your stick on the boards instead of back checking.... As a goalie, you tend to appreciate the HUGE difference it makes when a guy is breaking in on a scoring chance when he still "hears footsteps" vs when he knows the rest of the opposition has given up on the play and it's just you he has to beat....

It's a game inches yes, but it's also a game of dynamics, patterns and (team and individual) psychology. Nothing taught me that better than those 2006 Oilers. A calm strapping defence man can change the way an entire team of men view themselves

 

[Oil In My Veins]

First hockey video game I played and owned:

Intellivision NHL Hockey! And I still have the original console and games

 

[molsonmuscle360]

Started playing hockey when I was 4, I'm 30 now. Mostly mid level teams my whole life as a 2nd/3rd line center, and as I got older was more of a PK specialist then anything. A game with a lot of penalties could pretty much double my icetime, because I played in the day where only 1 or 2 guys per team would block shots, and I was one of those guys. I also took 2 years in Peewee to play goalie, because our normal goalie moved out of town.

I tend to notice PK issues (like how our PK tends to give up the off wing one timer too much, because they shift way to much on the pass)

 

[sepHF]

played pre-novice to midget and spend a large portion of my free time watching / reading about hockey.

 

[Replacement*]

Sometimes perhaps background in hockey alone doesn't give all the goods. I have a background in hockey, but its some of my other background that allows me to sniff out some talents, and suss out the junk.

Several people that play the game of hockey do so without being too analytical about it. Most have played for the point of recreation, some have followed this up to junior or other ranks.

But If you don't have a deep seated analytical interest in hockey systems and your eyes rolled around sometimes during coaches longer talks on systems then its harder to recognize how to assess pro hockey players.

I say this because analytically you have to interpret a lot of separate information to come to any reasonable conclusions in player assessment. I say this to a board that routinely makes recommendations to move out star players because of some feeling that they are simply not the players that can be successful. I think a lot of this input is misguided and that one can't make assessments on players without first noting flaws in systems the players are playing in.
For instance we have several star players here, several top picks, many of whom the board want traded at one point or another. These being best in the world players but who are stuggling here through years of lack of adequate management and coaching. You have to isolate variables to see what individual players bring to a team sport.

Finally I find it interesting how many of the comments here in the thread reveal a considerable level of hockey play and yet see a board that is chronically highly critical of hockey players. One would think people with more on ice experience would fully realize how much things like systems, opponents, weak team mates, weak goalies, etc, can greatly influence individual results. Which can't so easily be isolated when we watch a game.
A lot of people would give their teammates on the ice a lot more latitude than they ever give the Edmonton Oilers. A bit odd.

 

[molsonmuscle360]

Sometimes perhaps background in hockey alone doesn't give all the goods. I have a background in hockey, but its some of my other background that allows me to sniff out some talents, and suss out the junk.

Several people that play the game of hockey do so without being too analytical about it. Most have played for the point of recreation, some have followed this up to junior or other ranks.

But If you don't have a deep seated analytical interest in hockey systems and your eyes rolled around sometimes during coaches longer talks on systems then its harder to recognize how to assess pro hockey players.

I say this because analytically you have to interpret a lot of separate information to come to any reasonable conclusions in player assessment. I say this to a board that routinely makes recommendations to move out star players because of some feeling that they are simply not the players that can be successful. I think a lot of this input is misguided and that one can't make assessments on players without first noting flaws in systems the players are playing in.
For instance we have several star players here, several top picks, many of whom the board want traded at one point or another. These being best in the world players but who are stuggling here through years of lack of adequate management and coaching. You have to isolate variables to see what individual players bring to a team sport.

Finally I find it interesting how many of the comments here in the thread reveal a considerable level of hockey play and yet see a board that is chronically highly critical of hockey players. One would think people with more on ice experience would fully realize how much things like systems, opponents, weak team mates, weak goalies, etc, can greatly influence individual results. Which can't so easily be isolated when we watch a game.
A lot of people would give their teammates on the ice a lot more latitude than they ever give the Edmonton Oilers. A bit odd.

One of the few times I've ever read one of your posts and can't find a single thing I disagree with. I honestly think me spending a lot of time in my last 2 years of competitive hockey on the bench 3/4's of the time unless we were on the PK made me understand the game a lot better, because I got to see exactly what we were doing right and wrong as a team on the ice.

Although, I will say, I tend to miss a lot when I watch on TV. I missed a lot of little things about players all season because I didn't see any games live until the LA game last week. And I must say, it scared me the way Petry moved away from the puck. But Marincin and Klefbom both seemed like naturals on the ice.

 

[Replacement*]

One of the few times I've ever read one of your posts and can't find a single thing I disagree with. I honestly think me spending a lot of time in my last 2 years of competitive hockey on the bench 3/4's of the time unless we were on the PK made me understand the game a lot better, because I got to see exactly what we were doing right and wrong as a team on the ice.

Although, I will say, I tend to miss a lot when I watch on TV. I missed a lot of little things about players all season because I didn't see any games live until the LA game last week. And I must say, it scared me the way Petry moved away from the puck. But Marincin and Klefbom both seemed like naturals on the ice.

I went to 5 games this year and most were against good clubs. 2 St Louis, 1SJ, 1LA, 1Carolina.

Last one mentioned was just because very good seats were available.

I go to watch the Oilers play against good clubs because that to me sets the bar on where this team is. You never learn much of anything watching this club play Nashville.

My frustration with TV is camera angles, over zoom, and with the frame showing too little of the actual ice surface. With HDTV and 60inch screens I prefer much more of a fuller view so that you can see break out, where all players are positioned, and see the entire game like you do live.

Its specifically harder analyzing what players are, or are not doing in break out, when the camera view is too tight.

Same thing in Football. Its maddening watching it on Telly. You see the QB throwing the ball, you only learn what the receiver is doing and where they are when the ball arrives. You miss almost the entire play in between.

I realize someone will come along and say first world problem but its startingly stupid how little camera angles have changed in the HDTV universe. I'm still being forcefed coverage and zooms that would be more intune with 26inch analog TV's..

 

[molsonmuscle360]

I went to 5 games this year and most were against good clubs. 2 St Louis, 1SJ, 1LA, 1Carolina.

Last one mentioned was just because very good seats were available.

I go to watch the Oilers play against good clubs because that to me sets the bar on where this team is. You never learn much of anything watching this club play Nashville.

My frustration with TV is camera angles, over zoom, and with the frame showing too little of the actual ice surface. With HDTV and 60inch screens I prefer much more of a fuller view so that you can see break out, where all players are positioned, and see the entire game like you do live.

Its specifically harder analyzing what players are, or are not doing in break out, when the camera view is too tight.

Same thing in Football. Its maddening watching it on Telly. You see the QB throwing the ball, you only learn what the receiver is doing and where they are when the ball arrives. You miss almost the entire play in between.

I realize someone will come along and say first world problem but its startingly stupid how little camera angles have changed in the HDTV universe. I'm still being forcefed coverage and zooms that would be more intune with 26inch analog TV's..

Totally understand. My seats weren't even that great to the L.A. game, but being higher up gives you a better view of the play IMO anyways. Only thing I couldn't really see was the spot where Gagner got hurt. Just a bad angle for me.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

I went to 5 games this year and most were against good clubs. 2 St Louis, 1SJ, 1LA, 1Carolina.

Last one mentioned was just because very good seats were available.

I go to watch the Oilers play against good clubs because that to me sets the bar on where this team is. You never learn much of anything watching this club play Nashville.

My frustration with TV is camera angles, over zoom, and with the frame showing too little of the actual ice surface. With HDTV and 60inch screens I prefer much more of a fuller view so that you can see break out, where all players are positioned, and see the entire game like you do live.

Its specifically harder analyzing what players are, or are not doing in break out, when the camera view is too tight.

Same thing in Football. Its maddening watching it on Telly. You see the QB throwing the ball, you only learn what the receiver is doing and where they are when the ball arrives. You miss almost the entire play in between.

I realize someone will come along and say first world problem but its startingly stupid how little camera angles have changed in the HDTV universe. I'm still being forcefed coverage and zooms that would be more intune with 26inch analog TV's..

Wholeheartedly agree with the TV angles. I was at the Oilers - Flyers game on Dec. 28th. I sat behind the Flyers net for periods 1 and 3. Oilers jumped out to a quick 2-0 lead.

What did the Flyers do? They went into a 1-4 formation. Something i would have probably never caught on tv. However, sitting behind the net it gave me a different perspective of what was strategies were being employed against the Oilers.

When the Flyers were trading chances early in the game with Edmonton. Guys like Hall, Perron and Ebs looked unstoppable. Consequently, when the Flyers played a 1-4 in the neutral zone, the same Oilers players looked beyond useless. Flyers just waited for their chances on the PP and got control over the Oilers.

Flyers clawed back in the game and won 4-3 in a shootout.

TV never captures the whole story.

 

[Wheathead]

I'm a fan of the game and watch it as much as I can, but my experience pales in comparison to those who scout hockey for a living. I can never compare myself to them.

There's a reason why they get paid to watch hockey and I pay to watch hockey.

 

[Hockey Buddha]

I briefly took over the "Ask The Warrior" forum on here and renamed it Ask The Nabob. Therefor I am a professional analyst.

I appreciated that thread, and I wish that you'd bring it back, oh wise one.

 

[yukoner88]

I've played minor hockey, beer league, and have officiated hockey for almost 15yrs. I miss minor hockey alot since I moved away from Alberta, I'm looking forward to moving back in the fall and getting back on with hockey Canada. With all the crap you take as a ref, it's still alot of fun.

 

[CorpseFX]

played hockey from age 6 onward. had older brothers who played. watched many games of theirs while traveling around for mine. had neighbor/friend who also played and went to games with him. played every position growing up (goalie, D, RW, C... captain of team a few times)... taught ourselves on ponds before trying out for travel teams.

was just around the game a lot and was really obsessed with learning the game... that actually helped drive me away from it (and stop playing) for a few years also. played in inline leagues later for fun because it was cheap. was previously obsessed with baseball at a young age but ended up hating it while i took that obsession and transitioned it more into hockey.

 

[Hockey Buddha]

I've played minor hockey, beer league, and have officiated hockey for almost 15yrs. I miss minor hockey alot since I moved away from Alberta, I'm looking forward to moving back in the fall and getting back on with hockey Canada. With all the crap you take as a ref, it's still alot of fun.

Reffing is a completely thankless job. It's good of you to do it. So, as someone who played minor hockey growing up, and loved playing, "Thanks!"