What if WBS D outplays Pens D?

[wopper]

I'm a big Bortuzzo fan, but I think its pretty clear that he's the worst of the 3 rookies. So unless we move two guys out, he just doesn't have a spot. With Nisky's turnaround this year, Bortuzzo is at best our 7th best d-man even if we move Orpik.

The problem with Niskanen is that he doesn't fit our team this year or next year. He's a good defensemen. Sure. There are a few problems though. He will command too much salary on his next contract to keep him down on the 3rd pairing. He's not somebody you want in the top-4 over Orpik/Maatta/Des(IMO).

While he's a very decent defender at almost everything, he's also not great at anything. He's not great on the PP, he's got a good pass, but not better than Des or Maatta, he also doesn't play as physical or shut down d as Des/Bort or Maatta, he also costs way more.

Unless we're injured, we have guys who do what he does, but better. We need to look to the present and the future and that happens by trading Nisky and possibly another D (Orpik) for guys of their quality on offense. Nisky and Orpik are good players that bring good qualities, we just don't need those qualities anymore with what's in the pipeline. I don't believe we lose anything on D by trading Nisky but we can get a good middle 6 winger with the way he's played. Orpik probably top-6.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I'm a big Bortuzzo fan, but I think its pretty clear that he's the worst of the 3 rookies. So unless we move two guys out, he just doesn't have a spot. With Nisky's turnaround this year, Bortuzzo is at best our 7th best d-man even if we move Orpik.

Agreed, but I think you have to consider the value of Bortuzzo's style of play in the playoffs and that could move him up the list, not on skill but on assets. Not that I expect the D to be fully healthy.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

Agreed, but I think you have to consider the value of Bortuzzo's style of play in the playoffs and that could move him up the list, not on skill but on assets. Not that I expect the D to be fully healthy.

This. Bortuzzo is a mean guy who plays the body just as much as Orpik. If we move Orpik, we need Bortuzzo's physicality.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The problem with Niskanen is that he doesn't fit our team this year or next year. He's a good defensemen. Sure. There are a few problems though. He will command too much salary on his next contract to keep him down on the 3rd pairing. He's not somebody you want in the top-4 over Orpik/Maatta/Des(IMO).

While he's a very decent defender at almost everything, he's also not great at anything. He's not great on the PP, he's got a good pass, but not better than Des or Maatta, he also doesn't play as physical or shut down d as Des/Bort or Maatta, he also costs way more.

Unless we're injured, we have guys who do what he does, but better. We need to look to the present and the future and that happens by trading Nisky and possibly another D (Orpik) for guys of their quality on offense. Nisky and Orpik are good players that bring good qualities, we just don't need those qualities anymore with what's in the pipeline. I don't believe we lose anything on D by trading Nisky but we can get a good middle 6 winger with the way he's played. Orpik probably top-6.

Keep in mind that the only teams that will be interested in Nisky or Orpik this year are playoff teams due to their UFA status at year's end. So they likely aren't going to be looking to move roster players for the most part unless we find another team in a similar position as us to make a rental for rental type swap. Even McGinn is an RFA.

Also, as much as I might want to see it happen, I am 95% sure that we aren't trading two d-men away.

 

[#66]

Do you think its the players or just the Pens just being that little bit more structured because they know they have some rookies back there?

The kids make mistakes too but the structure is there to support them. It wasn't there for the vets for lord knows what reason.

Give it time. As the kids become vets they'll be give a little to much freedom... that's Pens hockey.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Do you think its the players or just the Pens just being that little bit more structured because they know they have some rookies back there?

The kids make mistakes too but the structure is there to support them. It wasn't there for the vets for lord knows what reason.

Give it time. As the kids become vets they'll be give a little to much freedom... that's Pens hockey.

I legitimately believe that this is true. Even if these kids don't get to that point, we will likely see the team go back to looser hockey as vets come back.

 

[IcedCapp]

I legitimately believe that this is true. Even if these kids don't get to that point, we will likely see the team go back to looser hockey as vets come back.

the main reason is, all of those vets, including luminaries such as Tanner Glass and Deryk Engelland, know that their spots are promised, no matter how well people play in their stead.

 

[Ogrezilla]

the main reason is, all of those vets, including luminaries such as Tanner Glass and Deryk Engelland, know that their spots are promised, no matter how well people play in their stead.

absolutely. And in the cases of Glass and Engo, they are also worse at hockey than the people they will be replacing.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

One of the players (Crosby?) said in an interview(s) that they've been playing a simpler and uglier game, and that the forwards have been more involved defensively. Some of the fat has been trimmed, Glass and Engelland, some better players are playing, Despres, Sill and pre-dead Megna, and the team is playing in a different way. My only complaint in all of this is the loss of the good players, Bennett, Malkin, Scuderi, Martin, good!Letang and now Megna.

 

[Ogrezilla]

One of the players (Crosby?) said in an interview(s) that they've been playing a simpler and uglier game, and that the forwards have been more involved defensively. Some of the fat has been trimmed, Glass and Engelland, some better players are playing, Despres, Sill and pre-dead Megna, and the team is playing in a different way. My only complaint in all of this is the loss of the good players, Bennett, Malkin, Scuderi, Martin, good!Letang and now Megna.

now what I want is for us to keep playing like we are missing half the roster when we have the full roster. I've said that since 2010 when Sid and Geno were hurt. If we are going to build our team from the defense out and let Sid and Geno boost our offense, then we should play more like a defense first team. Play ugly, simple hockey. Most of our players are simple and ugly.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

now what I want is for us to keep playing like we are missing half the roster when we have the full roster. I've said that since 2010 when Sid and Geno were hurt. If we are going to build our team from the defense out and let Sid and Geno boost our offense, then we should play more like a defense first team. Play ugly, simple hockey. Most of our players are simple and ugly.

Well, a portion of the team can go missing and their replacements can stay.

Beyond the aspect of building around defense this team needs to be simpler in general. They need structure and simplicity no matter what they do, let the skilled players work outside the structure a bit, but there still needs to be structure in place. This is a weird team, Bylsma loves his slow grinders, but treats the team like it's all speed and skill.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

now what I want is for us to keep playing like we are missing half the roster when we have the full roster. I've said that since 2010 when Sid and Geno were hurt. If we are going to build our team from the defense out and let Sid and Geno boost our offense, then we should play more like a defense first team. Play ugly, simple hockey. Most of our players are simple and ugly.

I think a big part of what's helped us recently is the kids are better at contributing to the play offensively. Not necessarily Gonchar shots from the point, but they pinch and keep pucks in well, and do so decisively. When we're healthy we have Orpik killing plays on one pairing, and Engo doing it on another. Bort has impressed me a lot with his contributions in the O zone, and even Ulf Jr. has not been a disaster like Engo and Orpik in that regard. When those guys are in there, teams don't even have to cover those points, and we're back to 3 on 5 hockey in the O zone.

The hockey needs to be simpler, but the D men just need to be better.

And I agree completely that too many roster spots are a lock.

 

[Ziggyjoe21]

Tonight is the 2nd night in a row that Damoulin is getting more ice time than Despres.
Damoulin 14 min. Despres 11 min.

Just thought it's worth mentioning.

 

[Tender Rip]

Tonight is the 2nd night in a row that Damoulin is getting more ice time than Despres.
Damoulin 14 min. Despres 11 min.

Just thought it's worth mentioning.

It is a Christmas mystery why Dumoulin is getting preferred on the PP over Maatta and Despres. I simply cannot find any single reason why.

He hasn't done better there in the past/lower levels at all, he clearly doesn't make decisions as quickly and he is hesitant out there. It plainly makes no sense.

 

[Jacob]

Tonight is the 2nd night in a row that Damoulin is getting more ice time than Despres.
Damoulin 14 min. Despres 11 min.

Just thought it's worth mentioning.

I still don't think that necessarily means that Despres is more likely to sit when Orpik and Engelland (and Scuderi) come back. I mean, Adams is always one of the lowest in terms of time on ice regardless of how full our roster is or how depleted.

But I have been wrong before.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

That is true, i guess i see Orpik as being more valuable come playoff time than that. Given the lack of physical defensemen on the team i think he's needed in the postseason. Whether Maatta jumps into his spot in the top 4 is something I could be potentially agreeable to if he truly continues at the pace he is at through the rest of this season. I think if Orpik is on the team however, he should be playing even if his minutes are reduced.

I agree with this sentiment.

Remember when everybody was in love with Engelland and said he was the replacement for Orpik? That was until he had a horrible playoff stint.

Today Bortuzzo is the shiny new car. It all comes down to the playoffs. I really hope Bort and Orpik shine, then Orpik can pass on the torch, and collect his reward somewhere else.

The worse imaginable situation is if they both suck. Shero will likely resign Orpik, and then DB will have it such that Bort never gets a chance to develop further. Lose, lose scenario there.

 

[jmelm]

I'm a big Bortuzzo fan, but I think its pretty clear that he's the worst of the 3 rookies. So unless we move two guys out, he just doesn't have a spot. With Nisky's turnaround this year, Bortuzzo is at best our 7th best d-man even if we move Orpik.

I don't agree with this (that Bortuzzo is the worst out of the 3 rookies, assuming that you're still considering Despres the other rookie besides Maatta). Bortuzzo is also better than Engelland. He's more consistent than Despres (even if Simon has higher upside), and while he may not be as polished as Orpik, I believe they are both very close in overall performance. Bortuzzo should be playing. The problem is that i the case of Bortuzzo vs Orpik or Despres, the former plays a different position, so it's hard to really compare apples to apples when we should decide who should play vs. who should sit.

I believe that Bortuzzo both brings enough to table now and that we've got to develop him for next year (when we're almost assuredly going to be without at least two or more of Orpik/Nisky/Engelland) that he deserves to play. If you or anyone wants to make the argument that Despres should play over Orpik, that's fine because they play the same position. But these guys positions and natural sides have to be and are taken into account when formulating the line-up.

Scuderi--Letang
Orpik--Martin
Maatta--Niskanen
Bortuzzo/Engelland

That is pretty much the current line-up that everyone expects us to have when healthy. At the same time, the majority of people have been suggesting over the past several months to trade Niskanen for a forward. A minority of people have suggested trading Orpik instead of Nisky, or even trading both. In short, the vast majority have suggested, at one time or another, to trade at least one of Orpik or Niskanen.

Now if one of those 2 were traded, because Nisky likes the left side, he could play LD with Martin (on the 2nd pair) or Bortuzzo (on the 3rd pair, with Maatta moving up to 2nd pair with Martin). I would personally be in the camp of trading Orpik because I feel he has less of a future here (no interest in re-signing him, whereas I would at least consider re-signing Niskanen), and Nisky is more versatile. But quite frankly: neither is untouchable and I'd trade either for the right return. If there's no decent return out there then perhaps there's no trade. But if there is a solid return for either of those guys, I would strongly consider it because it could be a great opportunity to improve our forward group up front, rather than to hoard guys whom we may lose for nothing as UFAs in the summer.

I personally don't have Despres in that top 6 group right now, but I respect the opinions of those who do, and if you want Despres in the line-up over Bortuzzo or someone else, you still would have to create a similar opening for him via trade...unless we stay injured to some degree all season.

 

[Tender Rip]

I don't agree with this (that Bortuzzo is the worst out of the 3 rookies, assuming that you're still considering Despres the other rookie besides Maatta).

Now you are simply talking nonsense. No offense.
At no point while Despres has been up has he been walked like Maatta was by Karlsson, and one struggles to even remember a goal that could be said to be on him as the primary reason.

Not saying Maatta is not better, though I am not sure. But as much as I love Bortuzzo and want him as our 6th, there is just no doubt that Despres is superior to him.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don't agree with this (that Bortuzzo is the worst out of the 3 rookies, assuming that you're still considering Despres the other rookie besides Maatta). Bortuzzo is also better than Engelland. He's more consistent than Despres (even if Simon has higher upside), and while he may not be as polished as Orpik, I believe they are both very close in overall performance. Bortuzzo should be playing. The problem is that i the case of Bortuzzo vs Orpik or Despres, the former plays a different position, so it's hard to really compare apples to apples when we should decide who should play vs. who should sit.

We clearly aren't watching the same Despres and Bortuzzo. To my eyes, Bortuzzo has been by far the least consistent of Maatta, Despres and Bortuzzo while also having the least upside of the bunch. His physicality is his saving grace.

I say this as a Bortuzzo fan. i'd be perfectly happy if he was in the line-up. Just not over Despres. Or Niskanen barring a sharp regression or a solid trade return.

I believe that Bortuzzo both brings enough to table now and that we've got to develop him for next year (when we're almost assuredly going to be without at least two or more of Orpik/Nisky/Engelland) that he deserves to play. If you or anyone wants to make the argument that Despres should play over Orpik, that's fine because they play the same position. But these guys positions and natural sides have to be and are taken into account when formulating the line-up.

Scuderi--Letang
Orpik--Martin
Maatta--Niskanen
Bortuzzo/Engelland

That is pretty much the current line-up that everyone expects us to have when healthy. At the same time, the majority of people have been suggesting over the past several months to trade Niskanen for a forward. A minority of people have suggested trading Orpik instead of Nisky, or even trading both. In short, the vast majority have suggested, at one time or another, to trade at least one of Orpik or Niskanen.

Now if one of those 2 were traded, because Nisky likes the left side, he could play LD with Martin (on the 2nd pair) or Bortuzzo (on the 3rd pair, with Maatta moving up to 2nd pair with Martin). I would personally be in the camp of trading Orpik because I feel he has less of a future here (no interest in re-signing him, whereas I would at least consider re-signing Niskanen), and Nisky is more versatile. But quite frankly: neither is untouchable and I'd trade either for the right return. If there's no decent return out there then perhaps there's no trade. But if there is a solid return for either of those guys, I would strongly consider it because it could be a great opportunity to improve our forward group up front, rather than to hoard guys whom we may lose for nothing as UFAs in the summer.

I personally don't have Despres in that top 6 group right now, but I respect the opinions of those who do, and if you want Despres in the line-up over Bortuzzo or someone else, you still would have to create a similar opening for him via trade...unless we stay injured to some degree all season.

I'm firmly on team Trade Orpik.

As for the bold, well Niskanen is terrible on the left side. Despres is a better left d-man than Niskanen is. Hell, so is Orpik.

 

[WhatsaMaatta]

I don't agree with this (that Bortuzzo is the worst out of the 3 rookies, assuming that you're still considering Despres the other rookie besides Maatta). Bortuzzo is also better than Engelland. He's more consistent than Despres (even if Simon has higher upside), and while he may not be as polished as Orpik, I believe they are both very close in overall performance. Bortuzzo should be playing. The problem is that i the case of Bortuzzo vs Orpik or Despres, the former plays a different position, so it's hard to really compare apples to apples when we should decide who should play vs. who should sit.

I believe that Bortuzzo both brings enough to table now and that we've got to develop him for next year (when we're almost assuredly going to be without at least two or more of Orpik/Nisky/Engelland) that he deserves to play. If you or anyone wants to make the argument that Despres should play over Orpik, that's fine because they play the same position. But these guys positions and natural sides have to be and are taken into account when formulating the line-up.

Scuderi--Letang
Orpik--Martin
Maatta--Niskanen
Bortuzzo/Engelland

That is pretty much the current line-up that everyone expects us to have when healthy. At the same time, the majority of people have been suggesting over the past several months to trade Niskanen for a forward. A minority of people have suggested trading Orpik instead of Nisky, or even trading both. In short, the vast majority have suggested, at one time or another, to trade at least one of Orpik or Niskanen.

Now if one of those 2 were traded, because Nisky likes the left side, he could play LD with Martin (on the 2nd pair) or Bortuzzo (on the 3rd pair, with Maatta moving up to 2nd pair with Martin). I would personally be in the camp of trading Orpik because I feel he has less of a future here (no interest in re-signing him, whereas I would at least consider re-signing Niskanen), and Nisky is more versatile. But quite frankly: neither is untouchable and I'd trade either for the right return. If there's no decent return out there then perhaps there's no trade. But if there is a solid return for either of those guys, I would strongly consider it because it could be a great opportunity to improve our forward group up front, rather than to hoard guys whom we may lose for nothing as UFAs in the summer.

I personally don't have Despres in that top 6 group right now, but I respect the opinions of those who do, and if you want Despres in the line-up over Bortuzzo or someone else, you still would have to create a similar opening for him via trade...unless we stay injured to some degree all season.

It's one thing to suggest that Bortuzzo's physicality is needed in the line up, but to suggest that he is now, has ever been, or will ever be better than Despres is just wrong.

 

[IcedCapp]

jmelm, i called the cops for you. i don't know what Despres did, but the ******* is GONNA PAY, don't worry

 

[UnrealMachine]

Despite playing almost exclusively in the darkest of times in terms of a depleted D this season, Despres is tied for the team lead in Relative Corsi. When you compare his numbers to Dumoulin, +13.2 vs -8.7, it's an absolute joke that he is getting less minutes when you consider how badly the Pens have been out shot recently.

 

[Waffle Fries]

Despite playing almost exclusively in the darkest of times in terms of a depleted D this season, Despres is tied for the team lead in Relative Corsi. When you compare his numbers to Dumoulin, +13.2 vs -8.7, it's an absolute joke that he is getting less minutes when you consider how badly the Pens have been out shot recently.

I agree. Dumoulin just hasn't been very good. Although, last night I believe Despres had the most even strength TOI of all the dmen. Dumoulin had more total ice time because our moron coach thinks he should be on the powerplay.


And the suggestion of Bortuzzo being better than Despres is laughable, although unsurprising coming from someone who will seemingly do anything to put Despres down.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Bortuzzo is better than Dumoulin and Samuelsson, and Engelland. Probably regular season Orpik, too. But then again, Despres is better than all of them. Which is what makes the latest season of Bylsma's brilliance all the more frustrating; Bylsma lets Orpik do whatever, and loves Engelland and now Dumoulin. You know, our weakest veteran, the rookie that clearly isn't ready and the 7th D that looked better as a forward.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'll be honest. I haven't really been impressed with Dumoulin. He's looked okay at times, shaky/slow decision making other times. In fact, I thought Samuelsson actually looked better versus the Sens than Dumoulin did.

I just don't understand why Dumoulin/Samuelsson isn't the Pens bottom pairing getting 13 minutes a night. Despres has shown much, much more in his time in the NHL than Dumoulin has.