Speculation: What I think is wrong with this team...

MuchoMacho

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Jul 19, 2009
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This is just wild speculation, but the point of it is that I don't think this team is as bad as their record shows. I think the monumental collapses over the years are attributed to a problem with the make up of the team. So this is my baseless speculation on what I think is the problem...

1. Kessel is not a leader.
2. Phaneuf wants to be a leader but is not a good one.
3. When Phaneuf is rah-rah vocal Kessel is unmotivated by it because he marches to his own beat.
4. Because Kessel is the best player on the team, the other guys look at Kessel and see he's unaffected by Phaneuf's leadership and they in turn are less affected by it as well.
5. The team lives and dies by Kessel's stick and because he's not a leader, when the pressure is on they fold.

I really think that if Kessel was on a team where they had solid leadership, he would be phenomenal. I also think that at this point in Phaneuf's career, if he were to go to another team, he would accept a role that required less leadership because when he left Calgary he probably was thirsty for the Captaincy, now that he has had it, I believe he'd be willing to give it up for someone else who wanted it.

I think if the Leafs get rid of Phaneuf, but keep Kessel, it won't be good. They'll still live and die by his production and will still collapse whenever there's pressure. Not a good environment to groom prospects. If they get rid of Kessel and keep Phaneuf, I think it'll be even worse because Phaneuf can't lead a team even with Kessel's production and so without it the team will just be even worse and the media scrum will fall on other (younger) players like JVR and/or Kadri.

My solution to this team is to trade Phaneuf and Kessel to the highest bidders -- whatever it takes. Keep JVR, Lupul, Bozak, Bernier, etc unless someone pays full value. From there, sign a bunch of "this year's" Winniks, Santorellis, Raymonds, Booths, etc. Make sure the team competes and puts forth 100% effort, then next trade deadline sell all of the 1 year vets and embrace the tank once again. This (a) protects the youth from being front and center and eases the media's scrutiny over the 82 game season (b) gives the vets on one year contracts the ice time they want (and they get traded to a contender at deadline for a chance at the cup) to prove themselves for a contract in the off season and helps the rebuild by still being able to bottom out between the deadline and the playoffs while stocking up on draft picks.

I think at the end of the day to see the epic collapses these teams have gone through and not admit there's a problem in the locker room, would be foolish at best. The only way to shake it up is to cut it off at the head, which would be Kessel and Phaneuf. It's not to say they're not good hockey players, it's just that they're not fit to lead a team together (or at all) and in order to change the make up of the locker room, you need to get rid of the leaders (hopefully) before they taint the younger guys.
 

notdoneyet

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Jun 19, 2006
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My two cents

phaneuf
I don't questio his compete level. One of the few who still give a rats ass even now.
Don't question his desire to win.
Questions about his hockey IQ
A polarizing figure who gets a lot of grief from this. Burke asked him to be captain
And how could anyone say no to being the captain of the leafs.

Kessel
Many many questions about his compete level. Too laid back no intensity and
Nit willing to sacrifice for the team does not lead by example
Great hockey IQ and an elite player when he wants to be but only on his terms.


Both have to go

Phaneuf because he will always be the whipping boy and kessel because you can't win with his lack of intensity and laid back - I'm going to do what I want attitude
 

Al14

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Jul 13, 2007
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Kessel and Phaneuf both have to go to change up the atmosphere and attitudes of the team.
 

ACC1224

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Wonder if they'd consider keeping both and bringing in Joe Thornton to prop up the lacking leadership?
 

TheOneArmedMan

Registered User
Jan 17, 2011
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I agree with op. Phaneuf and Kessel feed off of each other, but also feeds off Bozak. Start by getting rid of Kessel, Bozak and get a 1st line 2 way centre and the team would improve big time. The dont have the supporting players to help Phil.

Imagine if Kessel was playing with Kane, Taves and Chicagos defense. He would probably be #1 in points and goals.
 

Turk Broda

Registered User
Jun 2, 2009
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My two cents

phaneuf
I don't questio his compete level. One of the few who still give a rats ass even now.
Don't question his desire to win.
Questions about his hockey IQ
A polarizing figure who gets a lot of grief from this. Burke asked him to be captain
And how could anyone say no to being the captain of the leafs.

Kessel
Many many questions about his compete level. Too laid back no intensity and
Nit willing to sacrifice for the team does not lead by example
Great hockey IQ and an elite player when he wants to be but only on his terms.


Both have to go

Phaneuf because he will always be the whipping boy and kessel because you can't win with his lack of intensity and laid back - I'm going to do what I want attitude

Well said. Though I would add that if a team isn't willing to give value for Phaneuf, then I'd rather keep him. He shoulders more of the blame than he perhaps deserves.
 

Brown Dog

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Jun 23, 2007
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After the carnage of this season (not to mention the ones before), it would be pretty damned disappointing if Kessel and (especially) Phaneuf are back in Blue & White next year. Enough is enough with these guys.
 

YorkshireRose

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Apr 9, 2014
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Halifax, England
My own personal opinion is that the team has lacked veteran leadership for the past 3/4 seasons and it has finally taken its tole.

I used to think it was awesome that we had on average one of the youngest teams in the league, but without some hard as nails 40/30 kind of players to help nurture the young players attitude and their approach to the game, and stomp **** out before it becomes an issue, eventually the leadership void translates to a lack of effort and then a dip in results.

Do you think if we had a guy like Gary Roberts as captain and Phil turned up to camp a few seasons ago before his new deal, looking like chunk from the goonies he wouldn't have taken him aside and told him to sort his **** out? and then if phil said no, taken action to "help" him.

This is why i like Polak stepping in and telling Morgan to dial his celebration down, its just an example of a vet showing a kid how to operate in the league.

right now id honestly rather keep Booth than Kessel, his attitude to training both on and off the ice is an example id like to see kids like Brown and Nylander follow.
 

Hotel Mario

Registered User
Feb 4, 2013
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The two have been mainstays on the team since 2010.

The results have been the same every single year, including in the playoffs. Both are "secondary" pieces (this is me being very kind, as I despise these players), that cannot be relied upon as the leaders of the team.

Long story short they were relied upon as leaders this season, potentially as their last chance by Shanahan. They blew it and will be dealt this offseason, even if not for the greatest of returns.
 

Drew75

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Sep 5, 2005
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The key is that both Kessel and Phaneuf are great hockey players - despite the polarized crap they get here - but neither will ever succeed on this team.

Phanuef needs to be the #2 guy on a team, with less leadership accountability. In that role, he will excel and become an extremely valuable piece of a winning team.

Kessel needs to be the #2 guy - the Kane to someone's Toews. without the pressure of leading, and with decent linemates - he will be likely top 5 scorer in the NHL - an elite talent on a winning team.

The challenge is that neither of those situations are in place here, and thus neither player is in a position to succeed. Other GM's, however, also know this. They will both bring back decent value, their contracts are not insurmountable, and any trade we make will end up well for the team we're trading with.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
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The problem is that they are bad team, poorly built and simply gave up.
 

MuchoMacho

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Jul 19, 2009
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Wonder if they'd consider keeping both and bringing in Joe Thornton to prop up the lacking leadership?

I think if the Leafs traded for Jumbo Joe and Brent Burns they'd be a playoff team for sure. They might even do some damage in the playoffs. But I highly doubt they'd win a cup before the window closed on them and it'd probably take something like 2015 1st, Nylander and Kadri to get those two players out of San Jose. It'd be a disastrous move in 3-4 years when the Leafs have nothing to show for it other than a couple play off appearances and San Jose have Pavelski, Couture, Nylander, Strome, Kadri etc tearing it up and Leafs are bottom feeders with an empty cupboard... again.
 

Rude Dog

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Dec 22, 2008
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Just way too soft and easy to play against. Right through all four lines and D minus Polak.
 

Lebanese Leaf

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Sep 19, 2009
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Wonder if they'd consider keeping both and bringing in Joe Thornton to prop up the lacking leadership?

Joe Thornton? The same guy who was stripped of his captaincy on a perennial playoff team in a small market... you think he would make a good leader on a struggling major market team? The same guy who is 35 years old and regressed to an under 70 point player, you think he would still plug in as a #1C?

Take a minute and think about what you just suggested, then take that mentality of yours and transport it back to 2004, because that garbage got us no where then and it certainly won't get us anywhere now.
 

Guy Boucher

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Oct 22, 2008
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The problem is that they are bad team, poorly built and simply gave up.

"Let's build a team with a pathetic defense, barely any NHL quality centers and wonder why the wingers don't look better!"

Yup. Must be a leadership problem.
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
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Joe Thornton? The same guy who was stripped of his captaincy on a perennial playoff team in a small market... you think he would make a good leader on a struggling major market team? The same guy who is 35 years old and regressed to an under 70 point player, you think he would still plug in as a #1C?

Take a minute and think about what you just suggested, then take that mentality of yours and transport it back to 2004, because that garbage got us no where then and it certainly won't get us anywhere now.

Did you read my post? I am not "they".
 

landeskog11

Registered User
Jan 14, 2012
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I think if the Leafs traded for Jumbo Joe and Brent Burns they'd be a playoff team for sure. They might even do some damage in the playoffs. But I highly doubt they'd win a cup before the window closed on them and it'd probably take something like 2015 1st, Nylander and Kadri to get those two players out of San Jose. It'd be a disastrous move in 3-4 years when the Leafs have nothing to show for it other than a couple play off appearances and San Jose have Pavelski, Couture, Nylander, Strome, Kadri etc tearing it up and Leafs are bottom feeders with an empty cupboard... again.

San Jose takes Tyler Bozak and Roman Polak with a 3rd or 4th round pick for Jumbo Joe.:handclap:
 

Knies iT

Registered User
Mar 6, 2015
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- Poor leadership
- Losing culture
- Poorly built core
- Too little high-end diversity in the top six
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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What's wrong with this team - strictly on the ice , and not considering that management failed to get proper/better players?


Lazy and entitled.

the end.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak and Lupul have to be gone. We're basically beyond discussion on this.
 

Ricky Bobby

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Aug 31, 2008
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Kessel + Phaneuf were also the only reason we had any levels of success.

Beyond Phaneuf his supporting cast has been terrible without one other legitimate top2/3 defender. He has at best overranked Dmen by Leaf fans who are really #4/5 guys in Franson, Gunnarson, Polak for the Preds or Blues. Phaneuf just got to shoulder all the blame.

Scorers are streaky. People can blame Kessel but the guy has a perennial top league scorer. Unlike Kane Or Perry he has had Bozak.

Kessel + Phaneuf are good players who will go onto succeed elsewhere.

In all this team was weak on the blueline, weak down the middle and average in net. The team will be ripped apart but it won't all happen this off-season.

Some deals we are better off waiting for. Witness Buffalo who took their time dealing guys out and got great returns as a result for guys like Miller, Vanek, Pominville, etc.
 

Ricky Bobby

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Aug 31, 2008
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Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozak and Lupul have to be gone. We're basically beyond discussion on this.

I fully expect Phaneuf gone this off-season.

Bozak or Kessel is 50/50. Could get a better return for them in the season.

Lupul I fully expect back but dealt next deadline. He is coming off an dreadful season where he averaged around .40 PPG less than his previous 200 games. There is a league cap crunch and his salary in real dollars make him more attractive towards the end of next year.
 

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