What does Ottawa need more?

[Smash88]

Civil War?

LOL I guess that's what HFSens would be at times..

 

[bert]

I don't agree at all that this is a lottery team. It is more like a team that is not good enough to make the playoffs and not bad enough to land a top 5 pick type of team.

It is really quite laughable that you think buffalo got better. News flash, they DIDN'T. People need to stop overrating how good the sabres will be. They were absolutely awful last season. They did not add anybody besides maybe moulson that will be able to win them more games. The panthers still did not add a goal scorer, which is what they needed the most being that they could not score last season. Their defense still has a huge question mark on it just like the sens defense does. Montreal got worse in my opinion. They lost 2 character guys. Lets not forget that their were times last season where they were complete horse **** and had to rely on only price to win games. They also did not replace the offense of Vanek yet.

Tampa is the ONLY team that got way better in our division. No other team in our division really did anything to improve except for some minor changes

First of all what you described is the worst possible scenario, if you are gonna miss the playoffs you may as well suck. This would be a good year for the sens to be real bad, it may give them that franchise forward that they are lacking. Ottawa has the rest of the formula to build a winner we just don't have the go to guy upfront. Id agonize around a horrible year to set this team up to win a cup in 5 years.

How on one hand can you say Buffalo didn't get better than Montreal got worse? I think both teams addressed situations and needs moving forward and with the cap both teams were smart. Did you notice how Ottawa lacked structure and veteran leadership last year? Well Buffalo and Florida both added that, it helps develop the younger players. Keeps guys consistent night in and night out in practice and in games.

Do you not think that Barkov and Huberdeau a year older from 18 to 19 and 19 to 20 will improve? Especially being insulated by veterans? Give you head a shake if you don't think its gonna help. They just weren't insulated properly. Florida's D core got better Mitchell would have been a huge pick up for the sens. Kulikov and Gudbranson are talented young D prospects they are getting better.

Id also like to make it clear that I don't think Buffalo is going to be some kinda contender but its not going to be as easy a 2 points as it was last season.

I do think Florida is going to push for a playoff spot. Tampa could very well win the division. Boston will be about the same, Montreal will be about the same. Price may have stole them games but that's not going to stop any time soon.

 

[CanadianGuest]

Turris had 58 pts so with 5 more goals he'd have 63.

Turris has a 53 pts pace per 82 games with the Sens in 3 different seasons, while he was 22 to 24 y/o.

I don't think he will score 70-90 pts but 55-65 is my guess for the foreseeable future. He is becoming our Patrice Bergeron, which is a solid 1A center. Now it's up to Zibanejad to be that other 55-65 pts 2-way force.



I agree but let's not care too much about Phillips and Neil if their roles are reduced with time advancing. It would mean that youngers are stepping to the challenge. Well, I hope MacLean agrees.



And we still dominated the Habs all year, even when they won (thanks to Price and Refs)

They got Price, we got Lehner
They have Subban, we have Karlsson
They have Plekanec, we have Turris
They have Pacioretty, we have Ryan
They have Gallagher, we have Lazar
They have Galchenyuk, we have Zibanejad
They have Markov, we have Ceci
They have Eller, we have Pageau

The difference is the age and experience. I believe our group has more potential. But we have to surround them with solid vets. Anderson, Methot, MacArthur and Legwand is a good start but we need to spend more money, obviously.

I don't understand the point you are making in the 'they have we have' portion? Many of them are no where near similar in skill, abilities, style of play, or even experience. You could just as well of written, they have LW, we have LW. I apologize if this comes off poorly, I just didn't understand most of the comparisons.

I think you are correct that Turris has reached his potential, as many do in the 22-24 year range, and 55-60 is a decent average year moving forward, with chances for a career year pushing 65 points.

 

[Big Papi]

probably said repeatedly, but better media and better fans

 

[CanadianGuest]

top 4 d or top 6 winger?

Top 2 D to play with Karlsson.

I like Ottawa's forwards at the moment. I believe Stone has very similar skills to Ryan, and Stone will be a very similar player to Ryan, but to a slightly lesser degree.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Stone, Lazar, Prince, Pageau etc...

We have too many of those players potentially upcoming. We don't have top-end talent. Alright we add another 2 way 40-50 point player then what?

Ryan
MacArthur
Berglund
Stone
Chiasson

I see great supporting cast but no elite talent outside of Ryan. Heck even Ryan still needs a ways to get back there.

We'll be stuck in mediocrity. Especially with no Giroux's or Getzlaf's down the middle. Yea we need a top 4 D but why get one now when we have 2-3 players in the system who could fill that role as soon as next year? We aren't gonna compete next year anyway so why bother wasting assets.

On the other hand, a great winger will grow with the team when it's ready to contend and fill a need we would desperately need.

Of course Ottawa needs a top 4 defender. Heck, they need a top 3 defender. A top 4 keeps them in mediocrity as well. With that being said, I think there is a very high chance that one of: Ceci, Cowen, Wiercioch fill that role sometime in the next 2 years. Same can't be said about top end winger position unless Puempel breaks through or Guptill leads the way.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be completely down to get a guy like Berglund but that's if the asking price is through the roof for someone with more skill like O'Reilly, Kane, Huberdeau, Pavelski.

I still think Sharp's our man.

DISCLAIMER: Chiasson or Stone could very well end up being 25+ goal scorers and 60 point players that helps this team moving forward. Zibanejad could end up being our Kopitar or Turris our Bergeron or whatever. I'm just taking realistic expectations. Better to fill a potential and current need then to solve it later when you have plethora of it. I.e acquiring Bishop. Some may say same thing about defender issue but it's more likely Ceci becomes number 3 defender than Stone becomes number 2 winger. Maybe I'm wrong and others see things differently.

Melynk's budget will force us into mediocrity whether we like it or not. We'll never be able to outscore the teams that can spend to the cap. Let the Rangers and the Leafs of the world spend 30-40M on their forward core trying to outscore their opponents on a nightly basis. We'll spend 25-30M on two-way forwards that can neutralize their more expensive, one-dimensional counterparts through defensive awareness and hard work. I'd rather be the team with more talent, but the sad reality is that we can't be that team spending 10-15M less than the big market skill teams. It's just not realistic.

We already have Turris, Ryan, and potentially Zibanejad as our top offensive players. Guys like MacArthur, Stone, Chiasson, Lazar and any one of our numerous young forwards make up the secondary scoring. That's plenty of offense for the team we should be looking to become - a team that wins close games by battling, working hard and out-defending the opposition. Adding another high-end forward means we can't afford to sign/trade for a high-end defenseman, which would be a lot more valuable to this team than another skilled forward.

We should be looking at acquiring a guy like Keith Yandle, not a guy like Evander Kane.

 

[MakeOttawaGreatAgain]

I can tell you what Ottawa definitely DOESN'T need more of:





My ex-wife.

 

[Curtis]

If Ceci develops fast and Cowen bounces back, we won't need a top-4 D. I'm not comfortable rushing Ceci though. I'm scared he'll lose his offensive game.

Methot-Karlsson
Cowen-Ceci
scrap-scrap
Borowiecki/Claesson/Phillips/Wiercioch-Gryba

Totally agree. And I think that PW46 is much better than people give him credit for. For the time being while Ceci isn't yet putting up numbers, Karlsson needs support from another blue liner who can score some points, and Wiercioch fits the bill perfectly. Also, I think that Borowiecki can make for a real solid third-pairing guy. Boro can actually move the puck out of our zone, which was quite troubling for us last season. Phillips and Gryba can serve as nice depth pieces on the backend. I think that the team can use a bounce back from B. Ryan, the health of Michalek, and development of Chiassion or Stone rather than another top-6 F.

 

[coladin]

Civil War?

Haha

"All we need is just a little..."

 

[Xspyrit]

My mistake, for some reason i thought he had topped out at 53. Still though, that kind of offense even when coupled with his two way game doesn't make him a top tier center in the league. Like you said, it could make him a 1-A/B. He isn't on the same level as Bergeron in my opinion, even if he starts hitting 65ish points. Right now anyway, he is a streaky player so if he rounds out his game and brings it consistently that could change.

That is why I used the wording "he is becoming"

I don't understand the point you are making in the 'they have we have' portion? Many of them are no where near similar in skill, abilities, style of play, or even experience. You could just as well of written, they have LW, we have LW. I apologize if this comes off poorly, I just didn't understand most of the comparisons.

No no, you read it correctly. I'm comparing those players to each others. In fact, I think they are really comparable. The point is trying to put things in perspective so that people on this board stop crying poor. They don't have to be jealous of other East teams, not at all.

Price (26) vs Lehner (22) : Price 917% in season, 909% in playoffs. Won a Calder Cup when he was 20. Lehner 918% in season, 920% in playoffs. Won a Calder Cup when he was 20. Difference is that Price is 4 years older. I definitely think that Lehner has Price potential with an "it" factor in his blood.

Subban (25) vs Karlsson (24) : Karlsson has been much more productive offensively but it depends on who you prefer. Obviously, both bring a lot to their teams. Personally, I go with Karlsson who is IMO a generational talent while Subban is an actual superstar

Plekanec (31) vs Turris (24) : Both are good two-way centers. Plekanec production the last 3 years : 50 pts per 82 games, Turris : 53 pts per 82 games. I'd go with the younger guy with a game still growing and a much better track record in the playoffs

Pacioretty (25) vs Ryan (27) : Each team best goal scorers. Again, how does they don't compare? I think Ryan is a bigger threat but recent history gives the edge to Pacioretty.

Gallagher (22) vs Lazar (19) : Obviously, there's an experience difference right here but I think Lazar can produce at a 0.55 pts in the NHL, and more... Both guys (should be Wingers) bring a lot of energy and much more than their offensive contributions. Need time to see which will be more valuable but what's not to like about Lazar potential?

Galchenyuk (20), we have Zibanejad (21) : two highly drafted physically gifted centers who played mostly wing so far? How are they not comparable? Zib's career PPG : 0.45, Gally's : 0.51. The edge long term should normally go to Galchenyuk but I wouldn't count Zibanejad out too quickly.

Markov (35) vs Ceci (20) : This one is a reach I know. Ceci in reality compares more with Beaulieu and Cowen to Tinordi. We don't have a Markov (had Gonchar), but Markov is 35 y/o and went through a lot of operations and injuries.

Eller (25) vs Pageau (21) : Eller is a 3rd line Center who has produced at a 0.36 pace in the NHL. Pageau doesn't have a ton of experience

Obviously, Habs players are a ton more hyped, but if you watched the games since 2011 (and since the late 90's too), you realize than on the ice, the Sens have nothing to be ashamed of. Sens needed to be more consistent last year, because they looked real good in several games, but inconsistency had to be expected of such a young team lacking leadership

Top 2 D to play with Karlsson.

I like Ottawa's forwards at the moment. I believe Stone has very similar skills to Ryan, and Stone will be a very similar player to Ryan, but to a slightly lesser degree.

Uh... You were second-guessing my comparisons but are now comparing Mark Stone and Bobby Ryan? Did I read that correctly

No seriously, they are different players. It's actually hard to find a good comparable for Mark Stone.

 

[NyQuil]

Montreal isn't that good of a team.

Sure, they did fairly well in the playoffs, but the Rangers and Montreal? I could see either or both missing the playoffs next year. They both have relatively good goaltending - these days, it's all you need in the East.

The entire conference is well behind our Western counterparts in terms of complete teams.

What kind of top 9 can the Kings or the Blackhawks put out there?

It's an embarrassment of riches over there, and it's something Ottawa will never have as the cap keeps going up.

Being able to backfill forward positions with expensive former superstar vets like Gaborik, Hossa, Richards, etc. gives them a flexibility in the playoffs while we have to let our cheap and inexperienced youth take up those spots and learn about the post-season the hard way.

Is anyone surprised about how many shots we gave up last year? Our defence was young and the one veteran we were relying on the most (Methot) disappointed.

I think a stabilizing top 4 veteran d-man is what this team needs. Our forward lines are going to have to make do with hard work.

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

Montreal isn't that good of a team.

Sure, they did fairly well in the playoffs, but the Rangers and Montreal? I could see either or both missing the playoffs next year. They both have relatively good goaltending - these days, it's all you need in the East.

The entire conference is well behind our Western counterparts in terms of complete teams.

What kind of top 9 can the Kings or the Blackhawks put out there?

It's an embarrassment of riches over there, and it's something Ottawa will never have as the cap keeps going up.

Being able to backfill forward positions with expensive former superstar vets like Gaborik, Hossa, Richards, etc. gives them a flexibility in the playoffs while we have to let our cheap and inexperienced youth take up those spots and learn about the post-season the hard way.

Is anyone surprised about how many shots we gave up last year? Our defence was young and the one veteran we were relying on the most (Methot) disappointed.

I think a stabilizing top 4 veteran d-man is what this team needs. Our forward lines are going to have to make do with hard work.

Agree with the first sentence...I wouldn't be worried at all if Mtl was our 1st round opponent in the playoffs

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

That is why I used the wording "he is becoming"



No no, you read it correctly. I'm comparing those players to each others. In fact, I think they are really comparable. The point is trying to put things in perspective so that people on this board stop crying poor. They don't have to be jealous of other East teams, not at all.

Price (26) vs Lehner (22) : Price 917% in season, 909% in playoffs. Won a Calder Cup when he was 20. Lehner 918% in season, 920% in playoffs. Won a Calder Cup when he was 20. Difference is that Price is 4 years older. I definitely think that Lehner has Price potential with an "it" factor in his blood.

Subban (25) vs Karlsson (24) : Karlsson has been much more productive offensively but it depends on who you prefer. Obviously, both bring a lot to their teams. Personally, I go with Karlsson who is IMO a generational talent while Subban is an actual superstar

Plekanec (31) vs Turris (24) : Both are good two-way centers. Plekanec production the last 3 years : 50 pts per 82 games, Turris : 53 pts per 82 games. I'd go with the younger guy with a game still growing and a much better track record in the playoffs

Pacioretty (25) vs Ryan (27) : Each team best goal scorers. Again, how does they don't compare? I think Ryan is a bigger threat but recent history gives the edge to Pacioretty.

Gallagher (22) vs Lazar (19) : Obviously, there's an experience difference right here but I think Lazar can produce at a 0.55 pts in the NHL, and more... Both guys (should be Wingers) bring a lot of energy and much more than their offensive contributions. Need time to see which will be more valuable but what's not to like about Lazar potential?

Galchenyuk (20), we have Zibanejad (21) : two highly drafted physically gifted centers who played mostly wing so far? How are they not comparable? Zib's career PPG : 0.45, Gally's : 0.51. The edge long term should normally go to Galchenyuk but I wouldn't count Zibanejad out too quickly.

Markov (35) vs Ceci (20) : This one is a reach I know. Ceci in reality compares more with Beaulieu and Cowen to Tinordi. We don't have a Markov (had Gonchar), but Markov is 35 y/o and went through a lot of operations and injuries.

Eller (25) vs Pageau (21) : Eller is a 3rd line Center who has produced at a 0.36 pace in the NHL. Pageau doesn't have a ton of experience

Obviously, Habs players are a ton more hyped, but if you watched the games since 2011 (and since the late 90's too), you realize than on the ice, the Sens have nothing to be ashamed of. Sens needed to be more consistent last year, because they looked real good in several games, but inconsistency had to be expected of such a young team lacking leadership



Uh... You were second-guessing my comparisons but are now comparing Mark Stone and Bobby Ryan? Did I read that correctly

No seriously, they are different players. It's actually hard to find a good comparable for Mark Stone.

Comparable to stone...maybe Corey Perry? Not the fastest, great offensive instincts, hard shot, big, good around the net

 

[Sensinitis]

Markov (35) vs Ceci (20) : This one is a reach I know. Ceci in reality compares more with Beaulieu and Cowen to Tinordi. We don't have a Markov (had Gonchar), but Markov is 35 y/o and went through a lot of operations and injuries.

Eller (25) vs Pageau (21) : Eller is a 3rd line Center who has produced at a 0.36 pace in the NHL. Pageau doesn't have a ton of experience

Just for these two, I'd compare Eller and Smith rather than Pageau. Eller hasn't been much better offensively than Smith, despite being put in better positions to succed (more PP time for example). They're both pretty good defensively, and Smith is more physical. I'd take Smith seeing as though Eller hasn't broken out offensively yet. He's been a sub 30 pt player.

Kuba and Gonchar were our Markov comparables, now we don't really have a veteran presence that slows the game down and calms the other young D. I think this is the only one where there isn't really a comparable. Like you said, mayybe Ceci in a few years. Maybe Methot? He's boneheaded sometimes, so I don't think so probably not.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Agree with the first sentence...I wouldn't be worried at all if Mtl was our 1st round opponent in the playoffs

We absolutely own Price so yeah, Montreal does not scare me one bit

Ottawa > Montreal > Boston > Ottawa

Especially now that it seems that Pacioretty is a playoff underachiever and that Subban is so hot/cold in them

 

[CanadianGuest]

Uh... You were second-guessing my comparisons but are now comparing Mark Stone and Bobby Ryan? Did I read that correctly

No seriously, they are different players. It's actually hard to find a good comparable for Mark Stone.

I will list some small points in which they are similar, the operative word being similar. I don't want this to become an argument over the small points, more of a general skill set comparison.


YEAR TEAM LEAGUE GP G A PTS +/- PIM PPG SHG GWG TOI S PTSPG
20 year old Ryan 07-08 Anaheim NHL 23 5 5 10 -1 6 3 0 0 11:15 37 0.43
21 year old Stone 13-14 Ottawa NHL 19 4 4 8 5 4 1 0 0 14:28 36 0.42


Ryan - 6'2" 207 lbs - not a great skater - good hockey IQ - good in close
Stone - 6'2" 205 lbs - not a great skater - good hockey IQ - good in close

According to Stone's wiki page, he was "ranked in the top 50 on several major scouting lists...Suffering a concussion and thumb injury...hindered his final draft ranking among scouts"

Here's an interesting article on Mark Stone.

I'm not saying Stone will be the same as Ryan, just similar. If Ryan is a 30g 30a guy, Stone could be a 25g 25a guy, scoring similar types of goals. Similar to Ryan, but to a lesser degree. Time will tell.

 

[Sensinitis]

Stone has lesser hands though and a worse shot. Ryan has great hands and a great shot.

 

[Baby Ryan]

Stone doesn't seem as dynamic as Ryan is though, at least from the handful of games in the last 2 months of the season.

 

[Hossa18]

Stone has lesser hands though and a worse shot. Ryan has great hands and a great shot.

I think Stone is the better playmaker and Ryan is the better sniper. I wouldn't say Stone has lesser hands.

 

[Cosmix]

Interesting

I will list some small points in which they are similar, the operative word being similar. I don't want this to become an argument over the small points, more of a general skill set comparison.


YEAR TEAM LEAGUE GP G A PTS +/- PIM PPG SHG GWG TOI S PTSPG
20 year old Ryan 07-08 Anaheim NHL 23 5 5 10 -1 6 3 0 0 11:15 37 0.43
21 year old Stone 13-14 Ottawa NHL 19 4 4 8 5 4 1 0 0 14:28 36 0.42


Ryan - 6'2" 207 lbs - not a great skater - good hockey IQ - good in close
Stone - 6'2" 205 lbs - not a great skater - good hockey IQ - good in close

According to Stone's wiki page, he was "ranked in the top 50 on several major scouting lists...Suffering a concussion and thumb injury...hindered his final draft ranking among scouts"

Here's an interesting article on Mark Stone.

I'm not saying Stone will be the same as Ryan, just similar. If Ryan is a 30g 30a guy, Stone could be a 25g 25a guy, scoring similar types of goals. Similar to Ryan, but to a lesser degree. Time will tell.

Thanks for stats and article. Interesting. I hope he develops as you indicated. I was impressed by him last year. He showed some hustle back checking and I think he has improved his skating. It will be very interesting to watch his development next year. Given his injury history I hope he is not injury prone.

 

[Sensinitis]

I think Stone is the better playmaker and Ryan is the better sniper. I wouldn't say Stone has lesser hands.

Ryan's hands are amazing. Stone is far from being able to dangle like Ryan.

 

[pm88]

they need guys who play with more balls. too many passengers on this team

 

[HavlatMach9]

they need guys who play with more balls. too many passengers on this team

who exactly?

I'd never suggest a player was a passenger, but the closest thing I saw were MacArthur's comment about it sometime last season, though I don't remember what he said exactly.

 

[Xspyrit]

Just for these two, I'd compare Eller and Smith rather than Pageau. Eller hasn't been much better offensively than Smith, despite being put in better positions to succed (more PP time for example). They're both pretty good defensively, and Smith is more physical. I'd take Smith seeing as though Eller hasn't broken out offensively yet. He's been a sub 30 pt player.

Kuba and Gonchar were our Markov comparables, now we don't really have a veteran presence that slows the game down and calms the other young D. I think this is the only one where there isn't really a comparable. Like you said, mayybe Ceci in a few years. Maybe Methot? He's boneheaded sometimes, so I don't think so probably not.

Ya I considered Methot but he is nowhere near Markov offensively, however he is much better defensively than today's Markov

In the end, too bad Gonchar couldn't be 3 years younger... This would have helped this young team immensely and give proper time for Wiercioch and Ceci to develop under Gonchar's guidance.

I will list some small points in which they are similar, the operative word being similar. I don't want this to become an argument over the small points, more of a general skill set comparison.

Ryan - 6'2" 207 lbs - not a great skater - good hockey IQ - good in close
Stone - 6'2" 205 lbs - not a great skater - good hockey IQ - good in close

...

I'm not saying Stone will be the same as Ryan, just similar. If Ryan is a 30g 30a guy, Stone could be a 25g 25a guy, scoring similar types of goals. Similar to Ryan, but to a lesser degree. Time will tell.

OK I can see a bit of that, but like NewEra pointed out, what makes Ryan special is hands and shot. I think Stone will be a more "industrious" winger, in the mold of Nik Antropov. However I think Stone will be a hardest worker, but with less size and strength

I think Stone's hockey sense is through the roof. He's the kind of guy that will make other NHLers wonder "wtf happened?"

 

[Knave]

Ryan was a bit of a project that Anaheim did a good job developing.

But I think it's important to remember Stone is now 22 without a full season of NHL play which is behind where Ryan was at that age.

I have no idea how good or bad Stone will be but lets wait to see him play 82 (or close to that) games at the NHL level - if the coaches give him the chance - before we start talking about 20+ goals.