What does Lidstrom have to do to be considered better than Bourque?

[jcbio11]

At this point in his career, I don't see Lidstrom suddenly having a better peak than he already has. Peak is the primary issue for me between them. Bourque has, by my opinion, several seasons already better than Lidstrom's best.

I have explained why I think their playoffs are a wash in detail for the cup counters.

And furthermore, Lidstrom's biggest advantage over guys like Robinson and Potvin is his longevity/consistency. That just does not exist against Bourque, who had even more years as a top player. Lidstrom did not truly hit his elite stride until 1997(Something he and his coaches both agree on)

So your answer is nothing? Really? Bourque is so firmly superior in your mind that nothing Lidstrom might do would put him ahead?? Oh good lord...

If Lidstrom wins another Norris and/or captains his team to another SC/wins a Conns Smythe it still doesn't do it? I mean a season like this would have to be considered Lidstrom's peak, even if it was at the end of his career, would it not?

 

[jcbio11]

Uh, Bourque was among the least penalized top defensemen of his era. Adjusting to era's is not exclusive to points. It was a rougher game and a different sort of game.

Well I might want to see some numbers before I believe that he was among the least penalized top defensemen of his era. But doesn't really matter anyway, because we can just look at the years him and Lidstrom both played in the NHL. A quick glance at the numbers will tell us that Bourque was more penalized than Lidstrom every year with the exception of the 96/97 season. And even that had a lot to do with Lidstrom playing in 17 more games.

So I really don't see what this has to do with 'era', please elaborate.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Look at those rosters. They had Neely, among many others good players. Mentioning their centers over and over again won't draw attention from the fact that those Bruins teams were far from horrible, like some of you'd like to believe. They made they playoffs EVERY year for Bourque's first 17 years in the NHL and even after that missed just 2 out of 4 times he was still with them. That's 19 playoffs out of 21 possible, 17 in a row. They weren't bottom dwellers by any means. They could just never take it to the next level and get the job done.

Now of course Wings had better teams, but should that really take away from Lidstrom's 4 Cups, his Conn Smythe and him captaining a team to the Cup?

Facts are facts, and Bourque has never captained his team to the Cup, has only won one and never won a Conn Smythe.

I've seen Olympic golds mentioned in this thread as well (Bourque has none) but this is kind of unfair to Borque, who unless I am mistaken only had only one shot at it during the 1998 Olympics.

I don't like how team success argument works for some players, but doesn't work at all for others, like Bourque.

I am going to come back to this post.

Let's look at both players teams and remove them from those teams, and hypothesize how they would fare against each other, and the dynasty Oilers/Isles and powerhouse Pens.

I can't remember every single line off the top of my head, but I will just throw them in. Factor in where these players were in their careers, injuries, etc

1989-90 Bruins
Randy Burridge/Craig Janney/Cam Neely
Brian Propp/Dave Poulin/John Carter
Peter Douris/Bobby Carpenter/Dave Christian
Lynden Byers/Bob Sweeney/Greg Johnston/Bob Byce

Glen Wesley/Garry Galley
Don Sweeney/Alan Pederson
Bob Beers/Jim Wiemer

Lemelin/Moog

Strengths:
Scoring:Cam Neely was the premier power forward in the league, great goal scorer and responsible in his own end. Craig Janney was a creative(But soft and somewhat of a liability defensively) playmaker. After them, scoring depth is low. Shut down those two, and forward offense was nullified.

Checking: Dave Poulin, while oft injured and out of his prime, was a terrific defensive forward and Pker. As was Bobby Carpenter

Defense: None with Ray Bourque out of the lineup. At best, some were consistently average(Glen Wesley), while most others were downright terrible.

Goaltending: Moog was hot.

1996-97 Wings
Brendan Shanahan/Steve Yzerman/Darren McCarty
Vyacheslav Kozlov/Sergei Fedorov/Igor Larionov
Kirk Maltby/Kris Draper/Martin Lapointe
Doug Brown/Tomas Sandstrom/Tim Taylor

Vlad Konstantinov/Viacheslav Fetisov
Larry Murphy/Aaron Ward
Bob Rouse/Joey Kocur

Vernon/Osgood

Strengths: Offense. The two way kind, and in abundance. Shanahan was among the premier power forwards in the league. Yzerman and Fedorov were both excellent scorers, and Kozlov/Larionov were excellent depth.

Checking: 3 Selke caliber forwards(Yzerman/Fedorov/Draper), and most others very defensively aware.

Defense: Konstantinov was a Norris runner up this season, excellent on both ends of the ice. Larry Murphy was still an excellent defenseman and top offensive defenseman. Fetisov was past his prime, yet still excellent in his own end.

Goaltending: Vernon was hot, and although I disagreed with his Smythe, he played excellent.

 

[lextune]

A quick glance at the numbers will tell us that Bourque was more penalized than Lidstrom every year with the exception of the 96/97 season. And even that had a lot to do with Lidstrom playing in 17 more games.

As I already said; they speak to his physicality, (he certainly was not a dirty player).

And he was only over 80 PiMs once in his entire prime. Not much to make a fuss about. I for one loved when Ray would get a roughing call in the corner, or a cross-check in front of his own net.

That guy was a lot less likely to score later in the game; I can tell you that, lol.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Well I might want to see some numbers before I believe that he was among the least penalized top defensemen of his era. But doesn't really matter anyway, because we can just look at the years him and Lidstrom both played in the NHL. A quick glance at the numbers will tell us that Bourque was more penalized than Lidstrom every year with the exception of the 96/97 season. And even that had a lot to do with Lidstrom playing in 17 more games.

So I really don't see what this has to do with 'era', please elaborate.

Quite simply, I was comparing Bourque to the other top defensemen of his era the years he was winning Norris trophies.

Obviously Lidstrom is one of the cleanest players of all time. Nobody is disputing that. But this was an era when guys like Chelios were winning Norris trophies while having 200-300 penalty minutes. A different edge to the game back then.

 

[luffis]

This is ridiculous, so much arguing. Im born and raised in Sweden, and Lidström has been my favourite player since i started to follow the NHL/Hockey in 92.

Dispite this i rank Bourque ahead of Lidström, but it is close in my opinion, however IF Lidström pics up another Norris/cup/smythe id have to think it over again. Having seen Bourque play i must say his dominance was incredible, but Lidström has been dominating aswell, but not the same way. One might argue back and forth on whos dominance was greater and here i give an edge to Bourque wich is why i rank him higher.

The argument that ive reacted most to is how some people say that had Lidström's prime been at the same time as Bourque's he would only have 3/4 norris trophies while Bourque would have a "dozen". There is NO way to know this, in theory Lidström could have none in that hypothetical circumstance or more. There is no way to test this THEORY. Who knows Lidström could've won more, once again, in theory. For me Lidström has easily been the most consistent elite player the last decade with Brodeur.

I can't believe how people are keeping on arguing how Orr was the better player than Lidström, people saying otherwise are just stupid, Orr is together with Gretz the best player to ever lace em up and here Lidström isn't even close. Lidström is in my opinion the 5th best D-man ever after Bourque and very close with Potvin, for me it's razer thin between Potvin and Lidström, but if Lids ends this season as he's started it and clinches another Norris for me he has fortified his 5th place on that list. He needs to win another 2/3 of the norris/cup/smythe to be considered on par with Bourque.

 

[Dark Shadows]

So your answer is nothing? Really? Bourque is so firmly superior in your mind that nothing Lidstrom might do would put him ahead?? Oh good lord...

If Lidstrom wins another Norris and/or captains his team to another SC/wins a Conns Smythe it still doesn't do it? I mean a season like this would have to be considered Lidstrom's peak, even if it was at the end of his career, would it not?

Here is my opinion. Having watched both players career, and holding both of them as 2 of my favorite players of all time.

Thus far, Ray's best 5 seasons are better than any season Lidstrom has ever had. More Hart worthy seasons, and just overall better at his best. Peak advantage Bourque.

Furthermore, had Bourque started his career in 1991 in Lidstrom's place, I would say Bourque would have several more Norris trophies on his belt, While Lidstrom, had he started his career in 1979 in Bourque's place, would have a few less.

The competition was just better among top defensemen in Ray's Prime.

Longevity. Thus far, Ray Bourque was a top 4 defenseman from the moment he walked into the NHL till the end. Lidstrom was not a top 4 Defenseman until he stepped up his game in 1997(Something Lidstrom personally attests to, along with his coach) 19 years as an all star trumps 11 years as an all star.

What exactly do you want me to say? Even if Lidstrom suddenly has an amazing year where he finally gets a Hart runner up, Bourque still has 4 more seasons better than any other Lidstrom has ever had. You might not agree, but that is how I see it from watching both their entire careers.

In longevity, Even if Lidstrom plays at a high level for 3 more years bourque still holds more seasons as a top defender in the league.

And yes, I consider their playoff play to be a wash. I have already explained why, and you seem unable to grasp the concept of just how much different their teams were. If Lidstrom played for the Bruins and won 0 Cups(but played as well as he did), I would still consider him a phenomenal playoff performer who had the misfortune of playing on far weaker teams than the Dynasties they ran into, while if Bourque played for the wings and won 4 cups and a Smythe, I would still call him a phenomenal playoff performer, and fortunate to have played on a great team.

 

[Reds4Life]

As I already said; they speak to his physicality, (he certainly was not a dirty player).

And he was only over 80 PiMs once in his entire prime. Not much to make a fuss about. I for one loved when Ray would get a roughing call in the corner, or a cross-check in front of his own net.

That guy was a lot less likely to score later in the game; I can tell you that, lol.

That is just ridiculous. Unless the guy was a complete *****, cross-check is not gonna affect his scoring. Try cross-checking Tomas Holmstrom, do you really think he's not coming back for more? lol

Longevity. Thus far, Ray Bourque was a top 4 defenseman from the moment he walked into the NHL till the end. Lidstrom was not a top 4 Defenseman until he stepped up his game in 1997(Something Lidstrom personally attests to, along with his coach) 19 years as an all star trumps 11 years as an all star.

He was top4 defenseman (and almost won a Calder) when he came to the NHL. He was not as good as he was later on though.
(unless you mean top 4 in the NHL)

If Lidstrom wins the Norris this year, he will have the most Norris trophy-shares all time.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

I am going to come back to this post.

Let's look at both players teams and remove them from those teams, and hypothesize how they would fare against each other, and the dynasty Oilers/Isles and powerhouse Pens.

I can't remember every single line off the top of my head, but I will just throw them in. Factor in where these players were in their careers, injuries, etc

1989-90 Bruins
Randy Burridge/Craig Janney/Cam Neely
Brian Propp/Dave Poulin/John Carter
Peter Douris/Bobby Carpenter/Dave Christian
Lynden Byers/Bob Sweeney/Greg Johnston/Bob Byce

Glen Wesley/Garry Galley
Don Sweeney/Alan Pederson
Bob Beers/Jim Wiemer

Lemelin/Moog

Strengths:
Scoring:Cam Neely was the premier power forward in the league, great goal scorer and responsible in his own end. Craig Janney was a creative(But soft and somewhat of a liability defensively) playmaker. After them, scoring depth is low. Shut down those two, and forward offense was nullified.

Checking: Dave Poulin, while oft injured and out of his prime, was a terrific defensive forward and Pker. As was Bobby Carpenter

Defense: None with Ray Bourque out of the lineup. At best, some were consistently average(Glen Wesley), while most others were downright terrible.

Goaltending: Moog was hot.

1996-97 Wings
Brendan Shanahan/Steve Yzerman/Darren McCarty
Vyacheslav Kozlov/Sergei Fedorov/Igor Larionov
Kirk Maltby/Kris Draper/Martin Lapointe
Doug Brown/Tomas Sandstrom/Tim Taylor

Vlad Konstantinov/Viacheslav Fetisov
Larry Murphy/Aaron Ward
Bob Rouse/Joey Kocur

Vernon/Osgood

Strengths: Offense. The two way kind, and in abundance. Shanahan was among the premier power forwards in the league. Yzerman and Fedorov were both excellent scorers, and Kozlov/Larionov were excellent depth.

Checking: 3 Selke caliber forwards(Yzerman/Fedorov/Draper), and most others very defensively aware.

Defense: Konstantinov was a Norris runner up this season, excellent on both ends of the ice. Larry Murphy was still an excellent defenseman and top offensive defenseman. Fetisov was past his prime, yet still excellent in his own end.

Goaltending: Vernon was hot, and although I disagreed with his Smythe, he played excellent.

Your facts are wrong. Kocur was never a defenseman and Murphy was 1st defense pairing with Lidstrom.

 

[jkrx]

Your facts are wrong. Kocur was never a defenseman and Murphy was 1st defense pairing with Lidstrom.

He obviously made an error as Lidström isnt even in the line-up.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Your facts are wrong. Kocur was never a defenseman and Murphy was 1st defense pairing with Lidstrom.

You may want to try reading before responding. Obviously since I said "Without Lidstrom or Bourque", we were looking at the teams without them, and I also said.

I can't remember every single line off the top of my head, but I will just throw them in. Factor in where these players were in their careers, injuries, etc

Unfortunately, since Hockey-reference is down, I had to use HockeyDB, which listed Kocur as a D. I am not really keeping track of lines so much as just throwing out the players they had on the team to determine strength of the team.

 

[Dark Shadows]

He was top4 defenseman (and almost won a Calder) when he came to the NHL. He was not as good as he was later on though.
(unless you mean top 4 in the NHL)

If Lidstrom wins the Norris this year, he will have the most Norris trophy-shares all time.

Yes I meant top 4 in the NHL.
He was not a top 4 defenseman in the league that year(Or any year until around 96-97). He deserved the Calder though. Just about everyone I knew thought so as well.

Leetch, Bourque, Chelios, Stevens, Macinnis, Murphy all ranked well in front of him in his rookie season.

 

[lextune]

Try cross-checking Tomas Holmstrom, do you really think he's not coming back for more? lol

Not every player is Holmstrom or Tim Kerr now are they?

Your attempts to play contrarian to anything I post is somewhat amusing....

...but mostly just sad at this point.

And more directly to the point; Bourque's PiMs vs. Lidstrom's PiM's is a particularly lame argument. As I said, Ray had over 80 PiMs only once during his peak/prime.

Hardly a notable stat.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Bourque was a better offensive player, and Lidstrom is a better defensive player.

I'll take the guy who has never missed the playoffs and has been the constant among Detroit's 4 Stanley Cups.

Fun fact: Since Nicklas has entered the league, the Red Wings have NEVER had a losing season. Detroit's last losing season? '90-'91: the year before he arrived.

Well while I like Lidstrom a lot I'm pretty sure this says more about the management in Detroit than it says about any one single player.

 

[Derick*]

I don't understand this dislike of players that were traded before winning the cup as opposed to players that were drafted into great teams. Being drafted into a great team is getting help just as much as being traded to one is. Even if the team wasn't great before you got there, you're not the GM, the components that made it great weren't caused by you because you were there before them. Bourque and Hasek's cups are just as legitimate as Lidstrom's and Brodeur's.

 

[Reds4Life]

Not every player is Holmstrom or Tim Kerr now are they?

Your attempts to play contrarian to anything I post is somewhat amusing....

...but mostly just sad at this point.

And more directly to the point; Bourque's PiMs vs. Lidstrom's PiM's is a particularly lame argument. As I said, Ray had over 80 PiMs only once during his peak/prime.

Hardly a notable stat.

A professional player that is afraid of getting hit in front of the net, is not playing in front of the net anyway.

As for penalty minutes, since the 04 lockout year, there are a lot more penalties for "stick obstruction". Despite that, Lidstrom's high is 50 PIMs per year. He has only 476 PIMS in 1456 games (0.327 per game), Bourque has 1141 in 1612 games (0.708 per game).
That is certainly a significant difference.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

There is no question Lidstrom is the better playoff performer.
Adjusted, their playoff PPG over the years is identical, and most will give Lidstrom the edge defensively.
Factor in that Lidstrom has played more playoff games and tangibly accomplished a lot more and it really is not all that much of an argument they are on the same level.

Bourque's PPG dropped about 16% in the playoffs while Lidstrom's only did by about 4%.
So while Bourque has a definite edge offensively in the regular season, he does not in the playoffs.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I don't understand this dislike of players that were traded before winning the cup as opposed to players that were drafted into great teams. Being drafted into a great team is getting help just as much as being traded to one is. Even if the team wasn't great before you got there, you're not the GM, the components that made it great weren't caused by you because you were there before them. Bourque and Hasek's cups are just as legitimate as Lidstrom's and Brodeur's.

Well said and honestly I don't think there was a single person that saw all of Bourque's career, his loyalty and what he put up with in Boston and their management that wasn't secretly or not so secretly rooting for the guy to win the Cup will the Av's.
I know I was and as a life long Habs fan, that says something about how respected he was.
There are very few players that deserved a Cup more than Bourque.
The only people that can actually use his Cup with the Av's as a down point obviously didn't see enough of Bourque's career and quite frankly don't understand and never will.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Well said and honestly I don't think there was a single person that saw all of Bourque's career, his loyalty and what he put up with in Boston and their management that wasn't secretly or not so secretly rooting for the guy to win the Cup will the Av's.
I know I was and as a life long Habs fan, that says something about how respected he was.
There are very few players that deserved a Cup more than Bourque.
The only people that can actually use his Cup with the Av's as a down point obviously didn't see enough of Bourque's career and quite frankly don't understand and never will.

Agreed - that should not be held against him at all.
Though I definitely was not rooting for the Avs at the time

 

[jcbio11]

Way I see it: (super simplicized)

Offense - slight edge Bourque (although his career totals wouldn't look so sexy had he not played during the high flying 80s, but of course still edge Bourque)
Defense - edge Lidstrom

So basically we have the playoffs and team success as a tie breaker. Even If I'd call the playoff performance a wash (I don't agree with this but okay), team success still puts Lidstrom ahead of Bourque.

And to the guy calling the PIM argument lame, well, when you discuss two players who are so close to each other's ability, such as Lidstrom and Bourque, even things like who took more penalties are going to get brought up.

 

[Derick*]

But team success shouldn't be a factor at all except in so far as each player contributed to it.

A lot of people won't look at your analysis of who has the "edge" in the same way.

The fact that Bourque was a Hart nominee twice suggests to me he peaked higher. The fact that he has almost twice as many ASTs suggests to me he was a star longer.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Way I see it: (super simplicized)

Offense - slight edge Bourque (although his career totals wouldn't look so sexy had he not played during the high flying 80s, but of course still edge Bourque)

And yet, one could also point out that although they played in different era's, Bourque played on one of the most defensively conservative teams of the time, while the wings were often the most offensive powered team of their time, filled with far more superstar two way forwards that contributed.

Defense - edge Lidstrom

And just as many people will say it is a smaller edge than the offensive edge Bourque possesses.

So basically we have the playoffs and team success as a tie breaker. Even If I'd call the playoff performance a wash (I don't agree with this but okay), team success still puts Lidstrom ahead of Bourque.

Team Success gives him a better resume to be sure, but performance-wise(Which is what I am comparing), I find Bourque to be just as good as Lidstrom ever was.

 

[lextune]

A professional player that is afraid of getting hit in front of the net, is not playing in front of the net anyway.

Which is why I also mentioned the corners.

Lidstrom's high is 50 PIMs per year. He has only 476 PIMS in 1456 games (0.327 per game), Bourque has 1141 in 1612 games (0.708 per game).
That is certainly a significant difference.

I didn't say there wasn't a significant difference between them.

What I did say is that Ray's PiMs were not really notable. Lidstrom's are even less so.

It is getting a little ridiculous how I have to constantly correct you in regards to my posts/opinions.

Maybe you should just ignore my posts....Or actually read them before attempting to reply.

 

[WingedWheel]

Bonus question - what does he have to do to be considered the best d-man of all time?

It's sad that hfboards doesn't see everything in each player.
Lidstrom is the better dman when compared to Bourque.
Yeah Bourque has over 400 goals, and over 1500 points.

But Lidstrom plays defense like no other dman in history.
Lidstrom makes a 2 on 1 look like a scoring chance never even occurred.

 

[lextune]

But Lidstrom plays defense like no other dman in history.
Lidstrom makes a 2 on 1 look like a scoring chance never even occurred.

Have you heard of Doug Harvey?